The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

melissak

ceegee wrote: »

What do you suggest should happen when someone decides to put land up as collateral and then decide not to pay back that loan?

For example, someone decides to become a property developer. Puts the farm up against a loan. Property plan goes to the wall. Contractors etc dont get paid. Bank doesnt get paid.
Should he get to keep the land he put up as collateral?

In your ideal world where nobody loses their collateral when they dont pay debts, nobody could get a loan as there would be no reason to bother paying it back.

Farming is a business. If your not going to pay back your debts you'll lose it.

This "grabbber" nonsense just shows up the fact that people are too emotionally invested in what should be a simple business deal. If you leverage assets you might lose them. Dont blame the person who buys them next, they arent the ones who put the land at risk, the farmer was

It is not a simple business deal though. It is his family farm. I wouldn't have borrowed against the land but he did and it went pear shaped and he has my sympathy. I stand by my position that grabbers don't deserve luck for their grabbiness. The cows were not collateral and they were his only means of making repayments.

liam7831

Mrs cockett wrote: »

Who has that sort of money?
Would any bank give a loan for that much money to buy land in the current climate?
I truly hope no one buys it

Its 14K an acre, not that crazy a price, loads of people have that sort of money

Base price

Base price wrote: »

In my book he is considered a grabber and always will be - ill will and all that befalls him. I would never encourage (or back) my sons to buy repossessed land/property and in fairness to them they would not contemplate buying same.

I should have added to my above comment that I have no problem with anyone buying land/property from someone who is willing to sell in order to clear or partially clear their bank debt.
True story - a bachelor farmer (many times removed cousin) living & farming in an adjoining county had a outfarm (26 odd acres) a few miles from us. He was bequeathed the out farm from a family member 30+ years ago. In 2005/6 the farmer in his wisdom decided to invest in a house as a buy to let property in his County town. All was tickety boo until 2012 when the house could no longer realise the required rent to meet the mortgage requirements. He struggled on until late 2014 paying the balance of the rental income from farm sales.
He realised that he had to call stop and he informed his bank of the situation. I wasn't privy to the ins and outs of the negotiations between him, his bank, solicitors etc but he decided to sell the outfarm so that he could offset the funds against his mortgage.
He approached me, my brother and OH and told us his situation and asked us to help him prepare the outfarm for sale so that it could realise the best market value. We helped him re-fence, clean drains/ditches, hang gates and generally tidy up the place for sale.
When the "for sale" sign went up several people contacted us asking if the banks were selling it. We assured them that our relative was selling it on his own behalf.
The land sold at a good enough price but the downside was that he had to pay 33%?? CGT which left him considerably short of clearing the mortgage.

Bass Reeves

Mrs cockett wrote: »

Who has that sort of money?
Would any bank give a loan for that much money to buy land in the current climate?
I truly hope no one buys it

Denis O'Brien, Michael O'Leary and a few more
If you have the right collateral and show the Bank a good business plan then yes they will that is how the Kingstons got the money in the first place
The reality is that someone will

liam7831

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Denis O'Brien, Michael O'Leary and a few more
If you have the right collateral and show the Bank a good business plan then yes they will that is how the Kingstons got the money in the first place
The reality is that someone will

Yes only two people in Ireland have money or can make money the default duo of O Leary & O Brien.

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Denis O'Brien, Michael O'Leary and a few more
If you have the right collateral and show the Bank a good business plan then yes they will that is how the Kingstons got the money in the first place
The reality is that someone will

liam7831 wrote: »

Yes only two people in Ireland have money or can make money the default duo of O Leary & O Brien.

Note I said and a few more.

Kovu

While I still don't agree with this 'grabbers' and 'grabbiness' malarkey, I can understand the sentiment behind a family far being there for generations. However the family took the chance on expanding in the hopes of making more money, if there had been land nest to them which was repossessed and resold at the time they were buying, do you think they would have held back and let it go by them? Not meaning to pick on them as a family though, do you think any expanding farm should ignore land because of a sentiment which is outdated. It's not like olden times when a family only had the land to live off, people can retrain and find other sectors to work in, rather than being destitute.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

I should have added to my above comment that I have no problem with anyone buying land/property from someone who is willing to sell in order to clear or partially clear their bank debt.
True story - a bachelor farmer (many times removed cousin) living & farming in an adjoining county had a outfarm (26 odd acres) a few miles from us. He was bequeathed the out farm from a family member 30+ years ago. In 2005/6 the farmer in his wisdom decided to invest in a house as a buy to let property in his County town. All was tickety boo until 2012 when the house could no longer realise the required rent to meet the mortgage requirements. He struggled on until late 2014 paying the balance of the rental income from farm sales.
He realised that he had to call stop and he informed his bank of the situation. I wasn't privy to the ins and outs of the negotiations between him, his bank, solicitors etc but he decided to sell the outfarm so that he could offset the funds against his mortgage.
He approached me, my brother and OH and told us his situation and asked us to help him prepare the outfarm for sale so that it could realise the best market value. We helped him re-fence, clean drains/ditches, hang gates and generally tidy up the place for sale.
When the "for sale" sign went up several people contacted us asking if the banks were selling it. We assured them that our relative was selling it on his own behalf.
The land sold at a good enough price but the downside was that he had to pay 33%?? CPT which left him considerably short of clearing the mortgage.

What's CPT,If it's capital gains it shouldn't be that high

Farmer Ed

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Note I said and a few more.

Careful now lads. The bold Denny will go running to the courts to shut you up.

Base price

rangler1 wrote: »

What's CPT,If it's capital gains it shouldn't be that high

Sorry I meant CGT but my brain (as always) was working faster than my fingers.
I will edit my previous post.

Base price

ceegee wrote: »

What do you suggest should happen when someone decides to put land up as collateral and then decide not to pay back that loan?

For example, someone decides to become a property developer. Puts the farm up against a loan. Property plan goes to the wall. Contractors etc dont get paid. Bank doesnt get paid.
Should he get to keep the land he put up as collateral?

In your ideal world where nobody loses their collateral when they dont pay debts, nobody could get a loan as there would be no reason to bother paying it back.

Farming is a business. If your not going to pay back your debts you'll lose it.

This "grabbber" nonsense just shows up the fact that people are too emotionally invested in what should be a simple business deal. If you leverage assets you might lose them. Dont blame the person who buys them next, they arent the ones who put the land at risk, the farmer was

;););)

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

Sorry I meant CGT but my brain (as always) was working faster than my fingers.
I will edit my previous post.

land owned that long shouldn't have a high capital gains liabilty, I practically got developement value in a CPO and the CGT only cost 10% , your friend needs to change accountant

kevthegaff

Base price wrote: »

In my time I have seen many a black cross painted on an auctioneers signpost.
If I was truly interested in buying land 50kms away then I would research the circumstances that led to the sale.
I understand that times are a changing and now day's some people will profiteer on another's misfortune. I would never attempt to buy repossessed land. Be it for good or bad, I'm not one of those unprincipled individuals.

Ya base price but there's a sad story to every sold farm of land be it death, repossessions, drank away, divorce. Also in what time frame should this moral code be implemented 10 years, 100 years? If I knew the person I wouldn't but after that...

paddysdream

melissak wrote: »

I would know if it was around my area if the land was taken from an old time farmer and not a speculator. Of it had been bought in the last 10ish years it would be fair game. If it had been farmed by them for generations, it would not.

Is it an exact calculation (no. of years owned only) or does take into account the exact amount of blood, sweat and tears involved in acquiring it,plus the emotional state of the farmer involved ,minus the f*ck up he made,divided by the amount of land grabbing bas*ards interested in it ,multiplied by the amount of concerned internet posters who seem to live in loo laa land ?
O,h and if the land joins you,you have the money (no loans seemingly needed) and no land ever comes up locally should you increase the calculated figure by Pi times the square root of what the neighbours might think?
Tough decision and to be honest if the situation ever arises should I go to my local parish priest to seek moral and spiritual guidance?

Rowley Birkin QC

Base price wrote: »

In my book he is considered a grabber and always will be - ill will and all that befalls him. I would never encourage (or back) my sons to buy repossessed land/property and in fairness to them they would not contemplate buying same.

At what point would this land become "decontaminated" and okay for someone to purchase? A number of years? A number of generations? Ever?

What should happen in the interim? Should the land and buildings be allowed to fall into rack and ruin?

Bass Reeves

rangler1 wrote: »

What's CPT,If it's capital gains it shouldn't be that high

It could be virtually that. Multiplier from 30 years ago was 1.7. If lad was value at 1K/acre back then muliply by 1.7 leaves value at 44K. Add in sale and any other costs at 6K. If land made 250K you would be left with a bill for about 66K in CGT. If the lad was bought/inheritated in the late seventies land was worth more maybe 1.5-1.8K K and multipliers were much higher due to rampant inflation with multipliers of between 4 and 5. This would give a value before gains of 5-7K which would reduce CGT to 15-20K

patsy_mccabe

The Chinese might buy it.:cool:

Base price

kevthegaff wrote: »

Ya base price but there's a sad story to every sold farm of land be it death, repossessions, drank away, divorce. Also in what time frame should this moral code be implemented 10 years, 100 years? If I knew the person I wouldn't but after that...

As far as I'm concerned ye live by your morals till the grave - simple.

Bullocks

rangler1 wrote: »

land owned that long shouldn't have a high capital gains liabilty, I practically got developement value in a CPO and the CGT only cost 10% , your friend needs to change accountant

Does CPO reduce the CGT ?

Base price

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

At what point would this land become "decontaminated" and okay for someone to purchase? A number of years? A number of generations? Ever?

What should happen in the interim? Should the land and buildings be allowed to fall into rack and ruin?

I personally know of a "portion" of a disputed estate (c. 30 acres) that was put up for sale by a bank in the mid/late 80's.
To this day it's a wild natural habitat for the birds and bees.
I presume that in time the State will claim ownership of it.

Bass Reeves

Base price wrote: »

I personally know of a "portion" of a disputed estate (c. 30 acres) that was put up for sale by a bank in the mid/late 80's.
To this day it's a wild natural habitat for the birds and bees.
I presume that in time the State will claim ownership of it.

Or some fella will claim squatters rights on it

rangler1

Bullocks wrote: »

Does CPO reduce the CGT ?

No, same formula, same allowances

paddysdream

Base price wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned ye live by your morals till the grave - simple.

But the question is;how far back do you go?
Not on the morals thingie as most people usually use the New Testament as their baseline whilst a few of our brethern in the 4th green field prefer the fire and brimstone morals of the Old Testament but rather on the length of time that land can be contaminated by"grabbing"
Would it be the living memory of the local area?Perhaps the memory of half understood and biased stories handed down the generations?Time immemorial?
Help me out here.
What about the government land grab of the late 19th and early 20th century when freehold land was "taken" from the rightful owners who in many cases had actually paid hard cash for it.Should that be called "grabbing"?Think most people on here with inherited farmland benefited from this grab(me included)
Maybe back as far as the penal times when the previous owners were disinherited because of their perceived adherence to the "wrong" religion.Definite signs of "grabbing "here.
Would the wild geese be grabbers(Irish aristocracy were rather fond of an auld grab)or victims of a "grab" themselves when their new overlords evicted them from their estates.
Was Strongbow a "grabber"
Did the pride of Clare(old Brian himself) "grab" before Clontarf.
Vikings surely grabbed according to history books anyway's.
Were the Leprechauns evicted by an over zealous credit provider when they refused to make a monthly instalment on the H.P agreement for the pots of gold they so badly desired?

Have missed many a layer in our rich and varied history of grabbing but just some points to ponder on as morals and such like can be a very grey area and people in glasshouses and the throwing of the first stone and the high moral ground and ............................................................. ad infinitum

Rowley Birkin QC

Base price wrote: »

I personally know of a "portion" of a disputed estate (c. 30 acres) that was put up for sale by a bank in the mid/late 80's.
To this day it's a wild natural habitat for the birds and bees.
I presume that in time the State will claim ownership of it.

That's great but you haven't answered my question. This whole thing is totally subjective so I'm interested to see how long you think people should wait before taking over the running of a farm.

Miname

This grabber thing is nonsense. They didn't need to borrow 2.5 million they had what in effect most lads aspire to owning yet it wasn't enough.i could understand if it wasn't originally a viable farm but it was and must have been for the banks to lend on it. I pity the father who sees everything collapse around him not by his own doing but by the person he handed his lifetimes work to just for the sake of being the biggest.everything has a natural growth rate and it's only the very rich or very lucky that can prove that wrong. My own business was originally set up on liquidated machinery and liquidated stock. It wasn't my ideal scenario but it was all I could afford. I really do feel for the family but maybe the liquidation sales will help get someone else going. An old lad once told me to never borrow more than the value of your stock, at least that way there's some way out if it all goes pear shaped.

melissak

No. Your conscience Should suffice. If one of my neighbours farm was made of gold and it was forcibly sold and by some miracle I had the price of it. I would not buy it. Or ever make a neighbourly gesture to the buyer. I would not harm him but he would never darken my door

Sam Kade

melissak wrote: »

No. Your conscience Should suffice. If one of my neighbours farm was made of gold and it was forcibly sold and by some miracle I had the price of it. I would not buy it. Or ever make a neighbourly gesture to the buyer. I would not harm him but he would never darken my door

Christ, I thought that sort of mentality was dead and gone in this day ang age, seemingly not.

Rowley Birkin QC

melissak wrote: »

No. Your conscience Should suffice. If one of my neighbours farm was made of gold and it was forcibly sold and by some miracle I had the price of it. I would not buy it. Or ever make a neighbourly gesture to the buyer. I would not harm him but he would never darken my door

Take farming and agriculture out of it. Your neighbor is running a shop and makes some terrible business mistakes and the business folds. The banks move in.

Someone comes in with a great business plan that will bring business to the locality and provide employment. Do you shun them?

fepper

In fairness neighbouring farmers are not mad about each other anyway so I'm sure new owners wouldn't be too worried

maryishere

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I often wonder if we never joined the Euro. How would things be now? No housing bubble, no bail-out, just plodding along as usual. I reckon, we'd be far better off now.

I agree. Most sensible words spoken in a long time.