The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

Miname

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Take farming and agriculture out of it. Your neighbor is running a shop and makes some terrible business mistakes and the business folds. The banks move in.

Someone comes in with a great business plan that will bring business to the locality and provide employment. Do you shun them?

Now in that circumstance I couldn't cope with the guilt.

melissak

Miname wrote: »

This grabber thing is nonsense. They didn't need to borrow 2.5 million they had what in effect most lads aspire to owning yet it wasn't enough.i could understand if it wasn't originally a viable farm but it was and must have been for the banks to lend on it. I pity the father who sees everything collapse around him not by his own doing but by the person he handed his lifetimes work to just for the sake of being the biggest.everything has a natural growth rate and it's only the very rich or very lucky that can prove that wrong. My own business was originally set up on liquidated machinery and liquidated stock. It wasn't my ideal scenario but it was all I could afford. I really do feel for the family but maybe the liquidation sales will help get someone else going. An old lad once told me to never borrow more than the value of your stock, at least that way there's some way out if it all goes pear shaped.

Add your reply here.
It is the father I feel sorrowest For. Borrowing 2.5 million is ludicrous ludicrous, I actually wasn't aware it was that much tbh but it was 2007 a lot of people lost the run of themSelves. The banks encouraged that and our taxes are bailing out the banks(or more accurately the bondholders)and not individuals and businesses that are potentially profitable are closed down with loss of employment revenue etc and sold piecemeal to vultures. If we had a government worth its salt instead of recievers and sherries we would employ people with the skills to turn it around. It was a functional dairy farm surely it would not be rocket science to make it profitable. Was the loss of the quotation system a factor

rangler1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It could be virtually that. Multiplier from 30 years ago was 1.7. If lad was value at 1K/acre back then muliply by 1.7 leaves value at 44K. Add in sale and any other costs at 6K. If land made 250K you would be left with a bill for about 66K in CGT. If the lad was bought/inheritated in the late seventies land was worth more maybe 1.5-1.8K K and multipliers were much higher due to rampant inflation with multipliers of between 4 and 5. This would give a value before gains of 5-7K which would reduce CGT to 15-20K

There was an allowance called current use value that i remember being important and i got the land in 1978 so had it 25 yrs before the CPO.
If you're over 55 you can sell 750000 tax free

White Clover

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is by your mistakes you learn and if you do not learn from them well it too bad as the saying goes

bought sense is better than taught sense

A neighbour (Rip) used to say " education bought is better than education taught"

XR3i

fepper wrote: »

In fairness neighbouring farmers are not mad about each other anyway so I'm sure new owners wouldn't be too worried

better the divil you know :pac:

melissak

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

melissak wrote: »

No. Your conscience Should suffice. If one of my neighbours farm was made of gold and it was forcibly sold and by some miracle I had the price of it. I would not buy it. Or ever make a neighbourly gesture to the buyer. I would not harm him but he would never darken my door

Take farming and agriculture out of it. Your neighbor is running a shop and makes some terrible business mistakes and the business folds. The banks move in.

Someone comes in with a great business plan that will bring business to the locality and provide employment. Do you shun them?

Add your reply here.
Did his family have it for generations and did he resist the sale. If so the same applies.

Farmer Ed

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Take farming and agriculture out of it. Your neighbor is running a shop and makes some terrible business mistakes and the business folds. The banks move in.

Someone comes in with a great business plan that will bring business to the locality and provide employment. Do you shun them?

I think there is a bigger issue here. That is a farmer's attitude to his own self worth. For an awful lot of people owning land is just the most important thing ever. The play and film "The Field" being a great example of what I am talking about. I'm just getting a bit fascinated reading some of the posts here and the different views from different people.

In a difficult year like we may be facing at least in Dairying, maybe it's time for us all to reflect on what is really important in life. I read somewhere that a number of farmers who have had their farms repossessed had taken their own lives. Something none of us should lose sight of.

Miname

melissak wrote: »

Add your reply here.
It is the father I feel sorrowest For. Borrowing 2.5 million is ludicrous ludicrous, I actually wasn't aware it was that much tbh but it was 2007 a lot of people lost the run of themSelves. The banks encouraged that and our taxes are bailing out the banks(or more accurately the bondholders)and not individuals and businesses that are potentially profitable are closed down with loss of employment revenue etc and sold piecemeal to vultures. If we had a government worth its salt instead of recievers and sherries we would employ people with the skills to turn it around. It was a functional dairy farm surely it would not be rocket science to make it profitable. Was the loss of the quotation system a factor

Your living in a dream world where you want to be able to take a chance for yourself to benefit yourself but want someone to be there to there to take half the responsibility when things go pear shaped. If you want to be a businessman you have to accept the consequences and risks that go with it, whether good or bad. Sitting there on the moral high ground looking down on someone who might be able to make things work is pure childish nonsense.

Username John

Is it just banks people have an issue with?

What if a lad was farming, doing well, but paid no tax for years, then revenue hit him with a massive tax bill plus penalties, he had to sell a few fields.
Fields been in his family for generations, needed money quick, auction...

Let's say the farmer didn't want to sell his fields, but had no choice as he needed the money - but it was his own fault for not paying his taxes - which we all have to pay...

Is the person who bought morally wrong?
What's the correct moral course of action in this scenario?

Water John

Yeah Ed, I know one man who could not sell or lose 1 acre. He did give his sister a site but a friend who needed one and was willing to pay he told to ask his next door neighbour.
I would find that strange and a little unnerving.

fepper

Accountants and revenue are my biggest enemies in farming and not too worried about your attachment to the land

melissak

Miname wrote: »

melissak wrote: »

Add your reply here.
It is the father I feel sorrowest For. Borrowing 2.5 million is ludicrous ludicrous, I actually wasn't aware it was that much tbh but it was 2007 a lot of people lost the run of themSelves. The banks encouraged that and our taxes are bailing out the banks(or more accurately the bondholders)and not individuals and businesses that are potentially profitable are closed down with loss of employment revenue etc and sold piecemeal to vultures. If we had a government worth its salt instead of recievers and sherries we would employ people with the skills to turn it around. It was a functional dairy farm surely it would not be rocket science to make it profitable. Was the loss of the quotation system a factor

Your living in a dream world where you want to be able to take a chance for yourself to benefit yourself but want someone to be there to there to take half the responsibility when things go pear shaped. If you want to be a businessman you have to accept the consequences and risks that go with it, whether good or bad. Sitting there on the moral high ground looking down on someone who might be able to make things work is pure childish nonsense.

Add your reply here.
It is different, i believe in the countryside. It is a different way of life. Knowing who your neighbours are whether you like them or not is important. Small farmers have a way of life that is dying off in these days of eu farming. If we buy repossessed farms it makes it profitable for banks to repossess land. Many dairy farmers have expanded and many have gotten loans. The dairy quotas are gone. It is a big market that is likely to be filled with big factory farms and our way of life will be gone forever. I admit my opinion might be coloured as I am reading a book about the bodyke evictions at the moment so I might be projecting myself back into the olden days but I see real parallels
History repeats unfortunately.

rangler1

melissak wrote: »

Add your reply here.
It is different, i believe in the countryside. It is a different way of life. Knowing who your neighbours are whether you like them or not is important. Small farmers have a way of life that is dying off in these days of eu farming. If we buy repossessed farms it makes it profitable for banks to repossess land. Many dairy farmers have expanded and many have gotten loans. The dairy quotas are gone. It is a big market that is likely to be filled with big factory farms and our way of life will be gone forever. I admit my opinion might be coloured as I am reading a book about the bodyke evictions at the moment so I might be projecting myself back into the olden days but I see real parallels
History repeats unfortunately.

Didn't kingstons lease a farm that was the subject of court cases themselves about ten yrs ago

melissak

Was it the hanarahan farm?

Water John

Came across a situation recently of a farm just above subsistence. they were offered a solar farm project on the land, genuine developer, best site in the area. 25K tax free per year and they turned it down.
'There's nowt as queer as folk.'

Water John

I'd be careful lads, ye could be getting a Pat Smith type summons with some of the inuendos.

Hanrahans farmed in Clonmel and Kilkenny.

rangler1

melissak wrote: »

Was it the hanarahan farm?

No, cork somewhere, Pub talk somewhere since they were on telly

melissak

Sorry. I just thought I might have been missing something important.

rangler1

melissak wrote: »

Sorry. I just thought I might have been missing something important.

Can't beat Google can you
http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/dairy-herd-dispersal-today-at-well-known-cork-farm-149810.html

Water John

Not sure of why you are saying the Wood's farm.
Shur the cows that the father was buying were going onto that farm. Never heard of their being an issue.

longgonesilver

rangler1 wrote: »

Didn't kingstons lease a farm that was the subject of court cases themselves about ten yrs ago

Kingston's leased a farm from Richard Wood, who owned amongst other companies,. John A Wood's which was one of the biggest gravel and cement firms in Cork. He was rescued/ sold some or all of the firm to Roadstone who continue to run it.

Richard Woods family had a large herd of pedigree cows near Cork city, well known on the show circuits. George Kingston was his farm Manager before he bought his own farm. Richard Woods got out of cows partly because the cows had to cross the main Cork Killarney road quite near the city and partly because when the ESB flooded Cork in 2009? the farmyard was flooded to a considerable depth and they were lucky to save the cows.

As far as I know Kingstons and Richard Woods are still friends.

Water John

Rangler, totally wrong here, I think. The warning which I posted above, I left general but was actually about spurious allegations.
Pub talk should stay in the pub.

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/cork-herd-auctioned-amid-heavy-security-34659146.html

Farmer Ed

rangler1 wrote: »

Can't beat Google can you
http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/dairy-herd-dispersal-today-at-well-known-cork-farm-149810.html

In all fairness Rangler if you knew what you were talking about. Then you'd know that George Kingston and the wood family go back a long way and that when the Kingstons leased that farm, they would have done so with the full blessing of Richard wood.

Injuryprone

"He added that the sale was adding "insult to injury" and that it was particularly upsetting for the Kingston family that his father had been prevented from bidding on a herd that he had so painstakingly built up over the years."

If they only had 170 total animals in 2004, then the above statement from Peter Kingston is a bit of an exaggeration don't you think. I also note that he doesn't say that the father's pension funds had cleared and that they had the money to buy the cows but were prevented, having initially stated after the first auction that it would only be a matter of days before they'd have the money. Personally I don't think his media comments over the last while have done him any favours.

Suckler

Injuryprone wrote: »

"He added that the sale was adding "insult to injury" and that it was particularly upsetting for the Kingston family that his father had been prevented from bidding on a herd that he had so painstakingly built up over the years."

Bit of an exaggeration is an understatement; the father being prevented from bidding is their own fault again. The last escapade with regard to the pension money was nothing but a poor attempt to stifle proceedings. Then they crack out the violins when they are prevented from doing it again.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

Rangler, totally wrong here, I think. The warning which I posted above, I left general but was actually about spurious allegations.
Pub talk should stay in the pub.

It seems my post said exactly the same as was reported in the paper so don't know what your issue is.
But i do know if every farmer carried on the same as kingstons, it can be only to the detriment of genuine farmers that want to borrow money.
Hard to have any sympathy here, its wasn't as if their loans hit 20% like mine did and i still had to pay the most of it off

Farmer Ed

Lads if some of you are not careful the Kingstons may well have a way of getting out of financial difficulty Just about the same time as you will be getting in to it.

Suckler

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Lads if some of you are not careful the Kingstons may well have a way of getting out of financial difficulty Just about the same time as you will be getting in to it.

How exactly?

Farmer Ed

Suckler wrote: »

How exactly?

Ask Pat Smith. You need to be able to back up allegations that damage a person's reputation with hard facts.