The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

cjpm

freedominacup wrote: »

It depends on who is offering. There was a case local to here and we'd all do the deal if it was offered. I don't know what sort of vehicle the purchaser used but he paid a bit more than Kingstons owed for a piece of property at the height of the boom. That was taken over by a receiver this time last year with no repayments ever made on it and around the time Kingstons were kicked off their land our boy bought his property back from the receiver for around 5c (five) in the euro not fifty cent, five cent. The kicker is that if he had decided to pay the loan off on a Mon morning he'd have accumulated the cash by around teatime on Tuesday morning in an average week. I didn't hear one voice raised in condemnation on here at the time about how much this deal was costing the rest of us despite the fact that paying off this loan would be no more to him than a tank of milk was to Kingstons . The sale featured in national papers both times so ye can't say ye didn't know about it. A bit less hypocrisy please or do ye also believe in socialisation for the wealthy only.

Was it a case where Development land was bought back at its Agri value, or Farm Land bought back at 5% of its Agri value?

I'm guessing development land.

If Kingstons was sold at 5% of its Agri value someone would have bought a 170 acre farm for 85,000€
Not going to happen

I am assuming Agri value on Nohaval land is 10k. Reality is probably closer to 12 for a farm that size

Edited to say that I am totally against fellas loans being written of, and the taxpayer paying the difference. Never saw the sale you are referring to

Sam Kade

keep going wrote: »

Let me get this straight. This guy embarks on a madcap plan to milk 600 cows in a indoor system when he already owes a shed load of money to a bank.he proceeds to rips off anybody who supplys anything to him, complains the bank didnt give enough even though he couldnt pay back already and when the bank finally calls in the loans has the where with all to buy back the cows while leaving everyone else on the hook and some of ye think hes some kind of hero taking on the banks.lads theres alot going on here, im telling ye , ye dont have a clue

keep going wrote: »

ah lads would ye shut up about this because ye dont know the full story.

What's this about? Practice what you preach and all that.

paddysdream

Base price wrote: »

Nope, I only just trying to be polite
Personally I would cut the head off any ****er who crossed or attempted to sell/purchase my, OH's or my Mothers (Uncles's) land.
**** the Banks :D:D:D

Even if you borrowed to the hilt with the land left in as security and no attempt to repay ?

Why do you think that farmland should be immune to being repossessed ?Is it only farms this applies to or should anyone's house ,business or investment property.Is it the lenght of time a person has owned it that's important or should the court etc take a persons emotional attachment to their property into account?
Help me out here please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

greysides

Sam Kade wrote: »

What's this about? Practice what you preach and all that.

What's this about? Was it not pointed out that moderation would be strict on this thread and personal attacks wouldn't be tolerated?

WheatenBriar

Milked out wrote: »

This loan wasn't sold off. It s the bank looking to recover what it leant out

To be fair,Rabbo put the ACC loan book into a section where customers were actively encouraged to refinance with other banks
What happened here was a refinance probably wasn't possible,during the world financial melt down
The bank has to take a lot of the responsibility here for lending to a proposition which presumably they wrongly thought was viable
Who in ACC scrutinised the business plan?
Tbh,if the bank were any good this would not have happened and they would have invested with a more active involvement as a joint venture or something

This mornings papers have an article stating Peters father cashed in his pension to buy the cows but the funds hadn't reached his account yet

bogman_bass

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Ah Jasus kowtow, you can do better than that.

Never mind him kowtow. I though that was pretty good!

longgonesilver

If George Kingstons solicitor is giving reassurances in writing that the money is coming, and coming soon then the sheriff and auctioneer would possibly be wisest to stay quite for a few days and see what happens.

If they are worried about the cost of feeding the livestock, make them provide it, deduct every thing else from the proceeds of the sale.

ceegee

Base price wrote: »

Nope, I only just trying to be polite
Personally I would cut the head off any ****er who crossed or attempted to sell/purchase my, OH's or my Mothers (Uncles's) land.
**** the Banks :D:D:D

Simple solution is not to put your land up as security then.

The extreme attachment to land is imo a major factor in mental health issues amongst Irish farmers. Farming is a business, land is an asset of the business, people would do well to remember that

paddysdream

Base price wrote: »

I smiled wryly to myself when I read your post
If I was to loan you my tractor I would only do so if I trusted you to look after it and keep it in good working order.
I would assume you are asking for it because your own tractor is broken and not for any other reason such as sub letting it to another person/hiring it out in order to make a few bucks
If you held onto it then I reckon it was for a good reason and I would discuss our mutual situations and try to accommodate your requirements.
If that didn't work and ye still kept onto it then I would rely on neighbours/friends to intervene in order to resolve the situation. Now, you would want to be some thick bzatard if your local community pressure didn't work - caveat, you may not be from around these parts.
If all else failed I know that I would have my tractor back and none of the other neighbours would lend one too you either.

Read this again and think you are agreeing with me!!!!!
Bank(you) lends me money(tractor) and trusts me to look after it(pay it back as agreed)
They assume I want it for reasons I state and not for anything else(spent on things I borrow it for)
If I held onto it(didn't make repayments as agreed) then bank calls me in and we talk,renegoitate etc and come to an agreement to sort it out.
If all the above fails bank gets legal(usually takes years)and looks at the security lodged and involves sheriff ,court (bit like getting neighbours,friends in to help)
I would be some bzatard if all the above fails to work on me.
If all else fails bank get possession of security and no other bank would touch me with a barge pole.
See, you agree with me 100%
Knew we were on the same page!!!!!!!!!!!!

rangler1

longgonesilver wrote: »

If George Kingstons solicitor is giving reassurances in writing that the money is coming, and coming soon then the sheriff and auctioneer would possibly be wisest to stay quite for a few days and see what happens.

If they are worried about the cost of feeding the livestock, make them provide it, deduct every thing else from the proceeds of the sale.

must have a good pension, it'll cost a good bit to finance the day to day running apart from even buying the cows,
I wonder what the local agri supplliers/contractors think now, knowing they still have that sort of money.....

whelan2

WheatenBriar wrote: »

To be fair,Rabbo put the ACC loan book into a section where customers were actively encouraged to refinance with other banks
What happened here was a refinance probably wasn't possible,during the world financial melt down
The bank has to take a lot of the responsibility here for lending to a proposition which presumably they wrongly thought was viable
Who in ACC scrutinised the business plan?
Tbh,if the bank were any good this would not have happened and they would have invested with a more active involvement as a joint venture or something

This mornings papers have an article stating Peters father cashed in his pension to buy the cows but the funds hadn't reached his account yet

Fair play to his Dad

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

must have a good pension, it'll cost a good bit to finance the day to day running apart from even buying the cows,
I wonder what the local agri supplliers/contractors think now, knowing they still have that sort of money.....

its the sons debt not the fathers

20silkcut

ceegee wrote: »

Simple solution is not to put your land up as security then.

The extreme attachment to land is imo a major factor in mental health issues amongst Irish farmers. Farming is a business, land is an asset of the business, people would do well to remember that

I honestly thought about 20 years ago that there would be a major crash in the price of land when my generation matured and inherited land from our parents. After witnessing our parents struggle through the hard years of the 80's and 90's we would never put up with that lifestyle and land would be sold en masse. It has not happened. The decent subsidys such as Reps and SFP of the last decade and the anticipated removal of quota kept the dream alive and kept the land hunger as present in this generation as the last.
But are we in a new era now?
Foreclosures, bad commodity prices, shrinking subsides, rising costs. People wouldn't be long losing their emotional attachment to land in the current environment.

keep going

Sam Kade wrote: »

What's this about? Practice what you preach and all that.

fair cop

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

its the sons debt not the fathers

I've a friend that declared bankruuptcy two years ago.....paid no one.
He's driving a brand new Range Rover at the moment......belongs to his mother!!!!!!.....she drives an eight year old corolla. :cool:
Same thing as far as I'm concerned

orm0nd

whelan2 wrote: »

Fair play to his Dad

very bad move on his part IMO

longgonesilver

rangler1 wrote: »

must have a good pension, it'll cost a good bit to finance the day to day running apart from even buying the cows,
I wonder what the local agri supplliers/contractors think now, knowing they still have that sort of money.....

To paraphrase one contractor, I worked for him. When I was doing the work I knew I would not be paid immediately but that I would be paid. They have had hard times lately with TB but have always paid eventually. I WILL WORK FOR THEM AGAIN.

rangler1

longgonesilver wrote: »

To paraphrase one contractor, I worked for him. When I was doing the work I knew I would not be paid immediately but that I would be paid. They have had hard times lately with TB but have always paid eventually. I WILL WORK FOR THEM AGAIN.

If all the suppliers are paid, that's alright, but some businesses are just hangin on by a thread.
Just after reading the journal, apparently there's plenty of ''victims''

J.O. Farmer

Brown Podzol wrote: »

ACC loan management are no better or no worse than a vulture fund at this stage. Vulture funds are buying farm loans for between 15% and 50% I'm told. If these loans were offered to farmers at these rates I'm sure most if not all could refinance and other creditors would stand a chance of being paid as farmers could then trade out of their difficulties. The farmer in question has said in interviews that he had agreed to buy the loan at 50% discount more than once but the bank refused to proceed. The bank will be lucky to realise 50% at this stage and creditors have very little chance of getting their money.
The thing is that the farm loans are being packaged with other rubbish loans with very little chance of recovering anything. Distressed farm loans with very good LTV are being used to sell the rubbish loans. Now if the vulture funds have to recalculate what they pay for farm loans, in view of what has happened in Cork, it may force the banks to negotiate with farmers.

Morally should anybody developer or farmer or anyone be able to buy back their own loans for 50%. That would be effectively a 50% write off on the principal. Deals should be done on interest and repayment schedules but write offs of the principal where the loan holder keeps all assets shouldn't happen.
If it's a secured loan which can't be paid back the lender then can sell the collateral or come to some kind of arrangement with the loan holder that some of the collateral is sold.
Vulture funds buy the loans at whatever price and are aggressive in reclaiming money as they want to make a quick profit but are banks selling them performing loans where there is every expectation that the loan will be recovered in full.
If we could all convince the bank to lend us 2 million and then offered to buy back the loan for a million and the bank accepted we'd all be millionaires and the banks would go bust. If banks are happy to sell loans back to loanholders for 50% why would anyone try to pay back a loan. Just refinance for 50%.

Farmer Ed

orm0nd wrote: »

very bad move on his part IMO

To be fair his side of the story is that he was genuinely trying to buy back the cows for the grandson. Apparently the money to pay for them didn't come into his account as fast as the Sheriff would have liked, but it would be only a matter of days before it would be there. If that is the case,seems stupid for them not to wait rather than having to resell them again.
Also as to where he is getting the money from. Lets not forget that this farm was being run on an American model. Getting outside investors on board, would not be uncommon over there. Possibly that may be where the whole plan fell down as what works in another country may not always work here. The truth is none of us know the full story but the father must be in his eighties and struggling with health complications. It can't be easy for him.

J.O. Farmer

longgonesilver wrote: »

If George Kingstons solicitor is giving reassurances in writing that the money is coming, and coming soon then the sheriff and auctioneer would possibly be wisest to stay quite for a few days and see what happens.

If they are worried about the cost of feeding the livestock, make them provide it, deduct every thing else from the proceeds of the sale.

I think the optics of the situation are not good. A family member buying back the cows for the farmers son so I think the sheriff doesn't want to be seen to be giving leeway on the terms of sale especially given the large number of animals involved.

If I go to the mart and bid on cattle unless I'd some prior arrangement with the mart manager regarding when funds would be in place to pay for the cattle I'm expected to pay for the cattle that day. If I don't pay for them the cattle will probably be resold at the next sale.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

They knew the sale was happening with weeks/months. Why did grandad wait to draw down the funds in the last few days?

I agree with comments here that there are plenty victims who won't get a cent off them.

cjpm

I don't understand it....

If they knew for weeks that the cattle were going to be sold, why didn't they have the money ready?

Where were they going to keep the animals once purchased? You'd need a hell of a farm to keep 250 cows fed.

Do they have another farm with milking facilities etc?

Beaten to it by a Zetor! Oh the shame

mf240

I dont know the man or wish to kick anyone when there down.

But I know in my own area there are a couple of lads that don't like paying bills. They always have a sad story or will play the victim. But yet their lifestyle never suffers.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

cjpm wrote: »

Beaten to it by a Zetor! Oh the shame

Sorry I have dodgy brakes...

Buford T. Justice XIX

keep going wrote: »

Let me get this straight. This guy embarks on a madcap plan to milk 600 cows in a indoor system when he already owes a shed load of money to a bank.he proceeds to rips off anybody who supplys anything to him, complains the bank didnt give enough even though he couldnt pay back already and when the bank finally calls in the loans has the where with all to buy back the cows while leaving everyone else on the hook and some of ye think hes some kind of hero taking on the banks.lads theres alot going on here, im telling ye , ye dont have a clue

On the above, he claims that the bank had given an oral commitment to provide 250k of working capital, which wouldn't be excessive in a 600cow herd.

The bank reneged on that promise and then the farm was locked up with TB. For a business that depends almost more on sales of stock than milk, that would be a hammer blow, a bit like McDonalds not being able to sell burgers but everything else is ok to sell but a huge chunk of turnover is gone.

I know from experience this past year just how difficult it can be to turnover money with stock sales restricted. I also know from experience that being denied a promise of working capital from the bank can have a severe effect on cash flows that can take years to iron out:o

Tbh, the reporting on this case has disgusted me. There are so many trying to lead the story than follow it and the selective reporting by media of different items confirms to me, anyway, that I have to keep a huge suspicion of items being reported.

My thoughts on this case has changed hugely from the first leaking of items to do with this situation. I have no problem with the grandfather buying the cattle for the grandson and I would be disgusted if the cattle were sold by online auction instead of waiting for 3-4 days for the funds to come through.

While i accept that banks, in some cases, will have to realise their security to repay some or all of the loans, increasingly in this case I am thinking that the bank jumped the gun and decided to send a message to farmers to pay up or else. I am starting to think that letting the farm work and writing off a portion of the loans would have led to most of the loans being paid off and most of the businesses supplying them mostly paid off too.:(

longgonesilver

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think the optics of the situation are not good. A family member buying back the cows for the farmers son so I think the sheriff doesn't want to be seen to be giving leeway on the terms of sale especially given the large number of animals involved.

If I go to the mart and bid on cattle unless I'd some prior arrangement with the mart manager regarding when funds would be in place to pay for the cattle I'm expected to pay for the cattle that day. If I don't pay for them the cattle will probably be resold at the next sale.

And I would be the same. But if I came up with the money in the next few days I would expect the mart manager would sell me the cattle, provided that I was not making a habit of it.
The sellers are releasing this to the public late on a Friday evening. It should not be released publically. This is a weekend, in Ireland, nothing will happen business wise. Money will probably be in Grandfathers a/c Monday, nobody needed to do anything.

Cashing in a pension could be a slow procedure, much more complicated than withdrawing from a deposit account.

MIKEKC

paddysdream wrote: »

Rubbish.
If I borrow your tractor and then refuse to give it back until it suits me should all my neighbours help and sympathise with me?
Those Dutch "pricks" were doing their job same as the sheriff ,guards there on duty (pictures in paper) etc etc.
And yes it prob. is coming to a townland near me. What should I do ?Stand in solidarity with someone who has messed about for years,paid no one they could avoid and when they couldn't avoid it,paid as little and late as possible?
Not a hope
.Genuine hard luck cases are very rare and they deserve help but people who borrow millions and then it all goes wrong ?Would people feel the same about all those builders/developers who went under a few years ago?Just cause its farmers that are feeling the cold wind of reality at this time is no reason to lose our reason

Couldn't agree more, to spend e250,000 on a verbal agreement if there was one is totally irresponsible. He obviously used cash flow to finance expansion, how could he make repayments as well?

MIKEKC

longgonesilver wrote: »

And I would be the same. But if I came up with the money in the next few days I would expect the mart manager would sell me the cattle, provided that I was not making a habit of it.
The sellers are releasing this to the public late on a Friday evening. It should not be released publically. This is a weekend, in Ireland, nothing will happen business wise. Money will probably be in Grandfathers a/c Monday, nobody needed to do anything.

Cashing in a pension could be a slow procedure, much more complicated than withdrawing from a deposit account.

How can you cash in a pension?.thought you could only cash in a portion of it as tax relief would have been claimed on it

micosoft

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If banks can't chase bad loans, then banks will refuse to lend to farmers. Simple as that.

This and or charge higher interest to all farmers because according to some posters, paying back the loan is an optional extra and if you try to get your money back you are painted as some soft of villain.