N22 - Farranfore to Killarney [route options published]

amadain

Major Schemes

N22 Farranfore to Killarney • Funding of €500k allocated by TII to progress this
scheme in 2020

• Jacobs Engineering Ireland Ltd. have been
appointed as Technical Consultants in March
2020 to resume the Planning and Design of this
scheme and progress same up to completion of
the statutory process.

• They are familiarising themselves with the
previous scheme documentation and are aiming
to obtain Statutory Consent for the scheme by
the end of 2024.

marno21

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/185026/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Tender out for LIDAR/orthophotography surveys

amadain

Any guesstimate as to when work will actually begin on site ???

2, 3 or 4 years away ???

marno21

Public consultation on route options to commence next Friday.

marno21

Route options published

https://n22publicconsultation.virtualeventspace.io/files/N22%20(Farranfore%20-%20Killarney)%20Project%20-%20Brochure_Final_ENG_online_210512.pdf

KrisW1001

I don't know the area well enough to comment (I rarely head North when I get to Killarney), but I'm glad to see they've included an outer link between N72 and N71 in the plans too - the current rat-run through Ballycasheen really isn't fit for the traffic that it carries, and is a danger to residents living along the route.

Chris_5339762

Yeah that southern link will be useful. All Cork (and everything else from that direction) to Muckross etc traffic has to plod through Killarney or head onto some back roads. Very handy if that gets built.

embraer170

Traffic around Killarney is a disaster these days, despite no tourists at all. Terrible queues coming in on the N72 from Killorglin and mission Rd (I doubt this scheme will do much to alleviate that?).

Pete_Cavan

Would it make sense to send the N22 over to meet the N21 north of Farranfore? This would obviously have to be done along with an upgrade of the N21 between Tralee and Castleisland to 2+2. That would gave a good quality roads between the main town in Kerry. Doesn't make sense to have two decent parallel national roads within 2km of each other, one good quality road would be better. N70 could then be extended to meet the existing N22 and take over northern end of it.

serfboard

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Would it make sense to send the N22 over to meet the N21 north of Farranfore? This would obviously have to be done along with an upgrade of the N21 between Tralee and Castleisland to 2+2. That would gave a good quality roads between the main town in Kerry. Doesn't make sense to have two decent parallel national roads within 2km of each other, one good quality road would be better. N70 could then be extended to meet the existing N22 and take over northern end of it.

I agree with you, and suggested something along simliar lines on this thread previously ...

serfboard wrote: »

Would they not have been better off, instead of developing a new N22 part of the Traless bypass, to have used (some of) that money to dual the N21 to Castleisland, and then built a proper N23 (which needs to be done anyway)?

That way, all traffic out of Tralee heading for Limerick or Killarney goes out the (dualled) N21 and then branches at Castleisland.

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Would it make sense to send the N22 over to meet the N21 north of Farranfore? This would obviously have to be done along with an upgrade of the N21 between Tralee and Castleisland to 2+2. That would gave a good quality roads between the main town in Kerry. Doesn't make sense to have two decent parallel national roads within 2km of each other, one good quality road would be better. N70 could then be extended to meet the existing N22 and take over northern end of it.

That ship has sailed now.

Back in the late 90s, the plan was for two WS2 N21 and N22 routes to meet at the roundabout in Ballycarty outside Tralee, then a Type 1 DC would carry traffic from there to Tralee.

However there was objections to the felling of trees at Ballyseedy Woods and instead the existing route was widened to WS2 and a new offline N22 was proposed (only opened in 2013).

Regarding the N70, the gradient for a direct connection to the N22 at Farmers Bridge would be quite steep, however a majority of traffic uses the existing back road from the top of the hill on the N70 down to the N22. It's quite the timesaver but not usable for heavy vehicles

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

That ship has sailed now.

Back in the late 90s, the plan was for two WS2 N21 and N22 routes to meet at the roundabout in Ballycarty outside Tralee, then a Type 1 DC would carry traffic from there to Tralee.

However there was objections to the felling of trees at Ballyseedy Woods and instead the existing route was widened to WS2 and a new offline N22 was proposed (only opened in 2013).

Ideally the houses on the northern side of the road would be CPOed for the widening, rather than landtake from the woods to the south. I talking about in the long term, we'll be lucky to see the Killarney - Farranfore section done this decade, I was looking further ahead.

embraer170

marno21 wrote: »

That ship has sailed now.


Regarding the N70, the gradient for a direct connection to the N22 at Farmers Bridge would be quite steep, however a majority of traffic uses the existing back road from the top of the hill on the N70 down to the N22. It's quite the timesaver but not usable for heavy vehicles

That part of the N70 into Tralee really needs something done to it. A connection to the N22 would be one solution, and the gradient could probably be tackled with a few gentle curves.

I will never understand why Killorglin-Milltown got a new road (and they are planning Milltown and Castlemaine bypasses) when that dreadful descent into Tralee is still there.

KrisW1001

There's a phenomenon where "dangerous" roads are less urgent to fix from a safety perspective, because the road itself limits the danger by preventing high speeds. Speed does not cause accidents, but it does turn minor accidents into fatal ones. I'd put N70 into this category - it's a horrible road, but it's so obviously horrible that you can't get up to a dangerous speed on it.

Actually, there looks to be a relatively simple point to connect N70 to N22 and avoid the worst of the hairpins, along the road marked below, but it does go quite near to a lot of properties.

embraer170

KrisW1001 wrote: »

There's a phenomenon where "dangerous" roads are less urgent to fix from a safety perspective, because the road itself limits the danger by preventing high speeds. Speed does not cause accidents, but it does turn minor accidents into fatal ones. I'd put N70 into this category - it's a horrible road, but it's so obviously horrible that you can't get up to a dangerous speed on it.

Fair point. I have come across a few accidents on the N70 descent into Tralee including one a December night where I was first on the scene after someone totally missed one of the hairpin bends.

It's true that none of them were fatal (as as I know), but I am wondering if there is any other stretch of road where I have seen so many accidents.

marno21

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/191893/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Tender out for traffic surveys

Also:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40320497.html

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/clarity-needed-on-n22-project-to-allay-worries-40595565.html

marno21

Preferred route in Q3 of this yesr according to the council.

lordleitrim

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/development-of-farranfore-killarney-road-project-difficult-as-preferred-route-to-be-unveiled-42119440.html

Preferred route to be unveiled this month!

spacetweek

Did it happen?

By the way, quote from the article, and yes I know the Indo is a soft target for this: "Never had developing a major scheme being so difficult". Really? Do their journalists have even a basic grasp of English these days? Rant over.

lordleitrim

Taken from Councillor Jackie Healy Rae's Facebook page yesterday.

"This evening we were advised by the road design office for Kerry that there has been yet another delay in the route selection for the new Killarney to Farranfore road.

Below is the update we received;

“Please be advised that following the TII Peer Review of the Draft Option Selection Report for the N22 Farranfore to Killarney Project which was undertaken in October, further work has since been requested by the TII. This request will delay the public display of the Emerging Preferred Route Corridor until at least Q1 2023. The additional work sought by TII includes further appraisal of the Active Travel and Public Transport modes potential to meet the scheme objectives.”

This is not good enough in my opinion, deadline after deadline has been missed resulting in lands being held up for decades at this stage. I will be raising this again with KCC and the TII."

marno21

The additional work sought by TII includes further appraisal of the Active Travel and Public Transport modes potential to meet the scheme objectives

More Grade A clownery. There's a rail line beside the route which will be analysed under the rail review. The rail line is a useful asset but it, and indeed any bus related proposals, will do **** all to meet the scheme objectives. This is Killarney, not Paris or Amsterdam. There will likely be pedestrian and cycling facilities along the existing route or added to this one beside it.

It's quite obvious there is a need for an improved road between Farranfore and east of Killarney. It was obvious the last time this charade was undertaken and it's quite obvious this time. 3/4 months of an added delay for absolutely no gain again.

marno21

Like so many other schemes countrywide, it's such a pity hundreds of people are left waiting for these moronic hurdles to be overcome.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/when-will-we-know-what-route-the-farranfore-killarney-bypass-will-take-42312321.html

lordleitrim

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/killarney-councillors-to-write-to-tii-to-express-dissatisfaction-at-handling-of-n22-bypass-project-316746

The frustration continues....

marno21

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/final-route-for-farranfore-to-killarney-bypass-likely-to-take-another-few-months-318846

marno21

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/our-primary-goal-is-to-get-preferred-route-for-farranfore-killarney-bypass-42427099.html?

marno21

Now that Eamon Ryan has put the brakes on this, there's been significant outrage on this. The 2 Healy Raes discussed it in the Dail on Tuesday, and a delegation of councillors are seeking a meeting with the Minister.

There are 2 separate issues here:

1. The need for the new road is clear and unambiguous, both the N22 component and the much smaller N71 component.
2. There are 4 route corridors that have been sterilised since early 2021, affecting over 400 households. The preferred route has been known since late 2022, but can't be published because there's more bureaucratic jiggery pokery to be addressed put in place by the bike salesman.

A reminder to the 2 Government parties that they face enough of a challenge in this constituency off the 2020 result let alone the backlash within the constituency against several policies driven by Green Party Ministers that they will have to deal with too. Perhaps adding this on top isn't particularly wise.

Chris_5339762

This may reappear at the next election if it gets delayed until then - the Healy-Raes, even though I thoroughly dislike the rampant parish pump politics that they display, will be VERY effective at getting this put back on the list if whatever government need any support from independants.

marno21

2.5 years later no route selected. Four corridor options remain sterilised. Hundreds of landowners affected

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/councillor-calls-for-transport-minister-to-explain-funding-delays-for-killarney-bypass-347987

What sort of incompetence is this

Also, full discussion with quite some detail

https://www.radiokerry.ie/podcasts/kerry-today/minister-why-the-delay-to-killarney-road-project-september-20th-2023-348026

orangerhyme

Is the scale of the project absolutely necessary?

Could a bypass of Killarney be enough?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141361#Comment_121141361

The primary reasons for the development from Killarney north to Farranfore is the safety issues on the existing road and the high traffic volumes. There’s no traffic counters along the route to my knowledge but as a regular driver on the route it’s noticeably busier between Farranfore and Killarney than Farranfore and Tralee. The route between Farranfore and Tralee was upgraded between 2000 and 2013 save for c. 2km north of Farranfore which is included in this project.

It’s fair to argue that Killarney North-Farranfore isn’t a massive national priority but if Killarney was bypassed and the existing route was maintained north of the new bypass there would be a clear safety and capacity issue, and until recently TII were trying quite hard to avoid having troublesome stretches of road between newly upgraded stretches.

marno21

https://www.radiokerry.ie/podcasts/kerry-today/time-to-think-trains-september-21st-2023-348152

Response from the Kerry Green rep. 12 minutes of incoherent raimeis to put it politely

Norteño

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141371#Comment_121141371

In his case, it's simply just Time To Think.

That'd be a start.

marno21

• The scheme is at Phase 2 (Stage 2) – Options Selection Stage and a Peer Review of the Draft Option Selection Report took place in October 2022 by TII. • The 2023 allocation for the scheme of €100k has been subject to Section 24 of the Roads Act ie.it has been set by the Minister. • KCC have subsequently issued a request for additional funding to TII.

• Discussions between the Project Team and TII are ongoing and a meeting with the Peer Review Team was held on 27/04/2023 to discuss the advancement of the project should additional funding be made available.

• Legal Advice from Senior Counsel has been sought in relation to the release of sections of roadbased corridors which did not emerge as likely preferred routes corridors and will not form part of the final Transport Solution. The advice recommends awaiting the approval and publication of the Option Selection Report. The completion of the Report is dependent on receipt of additional funding. 

Latest from the Council in September. Hopefully more clarity in TII's 2024 allocations

2.5 years later and no route picked. The people along the route getting absolutely rode by the Department on this pisstake of an exercise.

Chris_5339762

They are getting Rode by Eamonn Ryan and his stalling - and the project team are digging their heels in and refusing to release route corridors until the report is complete, which needs money from Mr Ryan.

lordleitrim

I've driven Tralee Killarney a number of times lately and I suppose I'm so used to newer generation higher spec national primary roads with minimal or non existent private entrances (eg Tralee Castleisland/Limerick or even Tralee Farranfore ) that its quite shocking the amount of houses and private entrances between Farranfore to Killarney. It s almost like driving through urban areas at some points such is the density of homes and B&Bs...all requiring its occupants and visitors to perform many daily right hand turn maneouvers across such a busy road. It really does make it lethal for all users of the road. Also queuing from beyond the Aghadoe hotel turn off into Killarney seems to be a regular occurence now! The improved road can not come soon enough!

marno21

This project has not been funded for 2024 as per TII. Minister's decision.

road_high

Realistically I’d say this one is a long way off.

lordleitrim

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/department-of-transport-sufficient-funds-to-decide-preferred-route-for-long-awaited-n22-killarney-bypass-this-year-371125

Not sure how meaningful thIs is or just political plamásing...

Limerick74

Not funded in 2024

lordleitrim

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/killarney-bypass-to-get-e750000-in-funding-radio-kerry-373273

Something a wee bit positive.

DylanQuestion

It would be great if they moved the train station (or added another station) closer to the airport, and improved the N23 between the airport and train station. It’s only a bit over a 1km walk, and there is street lighting, but the existing footpath is quite small. There’s also no footpath coming out of the train station, nor a pedestrian crossing over the N22 to the N23. Given it’s the only airport in the country with anything close to a train station connected to it, it should be greatly improved on to take full advantage of that

dmeehan

In the papers today, but no sign of any funding

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/south-kerry-news/where-is-the-killarney-bypass-taoiseach/a386539522.html

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536152#Comment_122536152

Taoiseach isn't the one to blame here.

yerwanthere123

What's actually holding this back right now? Is it lack of funding? Lack of a final route being chosen, or both?

Killarney badly needs a bypass, the town is so choked during peak times. Can take 20 minutes to get from High Street to Park Road at the worst of times.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122537153#Comment_122537153

A decision by the Minister not to fund the project (let’s be clear here Ireland does not have a funding issue at the minute) and a whole pile of green tape he has introduced since taking up the role in 2020.

There’s 10+ projects that have been affected by the same defunding and the effects of the green tape issue are only slowly coming to the fore (see recently when a port motorway through rural Wexford has been delayed by years now due to lack of active travel consideration)

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122537153#Comment_122537153

Killarney will never get another bypass. The cost would be enormous and very little traffic would actually use it. The vast majority of traffic there is going to/from Killarney, there isn't much long distance traffic to be displaced.

Other options will have to be implemented. A link road from the N22/N72 roundabout to the N71 could relieve some pressure. A proper bus service which isn't hobbled by general traffic and a cycle network would do a lot of good. The N22 is very close to the rail line not far from the twon on both side, P&Rs could allow visitors get into town without having to drive in. The set up at the train station would be an issue though.

CB19Kevo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122540244#Comment_122540244

I wonder does the data actually back up what you are saying?
22,890 per day using the existing bypass, is that deemed high for a single carriageway?

Locally and indeed nationally i don't think there is any question of the need for this,if it was deemed needed prior to 2007 surely it is needed now with increased traffic flows, its just the release of funding that is the issue..

Locally there seems to be a big push currently to get some progress here.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122560491#Comment_122560491

How much of that traffic do you think wants to completely bypass Killarney? The town is a major attraction, drawing in huge numbers of international tourists, while also being a big commercial centre for the region. Apart from traffic which wants to be in/around Killarney, I don't see other major traffic flows for the N22 around Killarney. Cork - Tralee/Dingle would contribute something but not huge. Traffic between north Kerry and the south west of the county wouldn't be nothing but not significant at any given time of the day.

The cost of an outer bypass for Killarney would be massive. Such a bypass would have to be quite far out which would be difficult terrain. I doubt it would take much traffic off the existing Killarney bypass, it just wouldn't be worth it. Without any data, I suspect that a link road from the N22/N72 roundabout to the N71 could take as much traffic off the current N22 as an outer bypass would, but at a fraction of the price.

Any major investment around Killarney should be into public transport. If you can get a large proportion of visitors to leave their car on the edge of town and take a short trip in on public transport instead, you'd relieve a huge amount of traffic, both on the existing bypass and in the town centre.

hans aus dtschl

I don't see why Kerry Co Co should get another "road bailout" for their abdication of responsibility in planning the town. There's literally fields in the middle of town and they're allowing development along the bypass road, it's obscene.

There's also no real transport to speak of other than cars. One of the most prominent and busy sites in the town centre is a surface car park. If we're talking about another bypass of the current bypass we might as well just give up altogether.

For such a "picturesque town", it's fairly bloody ugly at the edges. As you approach town it's like you're driving through a suburban housing estate. They need a proper long-term town development plan, with a transport plan as part of it. Throwing an oul bypass on the bypass is a waste of time.

In saying all of this, I also acknowledge that Killarney traffic can be very bad. But just throwing a bypass on it is pointless. Just fix the current bypass, it'll cost less and work out better.

marno21

I haven't conducted extensive traffic modelling on the roads around Killarney, but 23k on the "bypass", which is a glorified inner relief road at this stage given that it starts and ends within the 50km/h zone of the town, and both terminal roundabouts are now walled in by development.

23k on the town's relief road is traffic already avoiding the town. That's more than 2x the capacity of the road, just of traffic avoiding the town. There's additional traffic going via the town to reach it's destination.

On the current relief road, a car going from the Rock Road to SuperValu is sharing the same road as a car going from Cork to Tralee along with a car going from Kilgarvan to the airport. One corridor is catering to extremely local journeys and cross country journeys.

There is no avoiding the need for new infrastructure here. There are two components needed (luckily which happen to be the focus of the plan).

1. A bypass carrying N22 traffic along the planned route. There's c. 7k of traffic coming from Cork on the N22 at the Cork border. This is joined by traffic coming from the R569 and the N72. Tralee is a major traffic generator of its own, along with Farranfore and other parts of the county. Killarney is not the terminal destination on the N22 for good reason.
2. A link road from the new bypass to the N71 that will remove traffic going to the N71 from the town. This would include traffic coming from the north and traffic coming from the east.

Killarney is a very unique town in the sense that has extremely variable seasonal populations, and will always be car dependent. It's very low density, very sprawly and has geographical constraints that make the traffic worse (there are no orbital roads whatsover in the SW quadrant of the town due to the national park for instance)

Of the above, the N71 link should be prioritised given how cheap it would be and would be effective at declogging some of the town. Long term a new N22 routing around the town is needed though.

That's before you touch on the absolute **** show that is the N22 from Killarney to Farranfore both in terms of safety and capacity. It's a nightmare to drive and quite dangerous also.