Garage changed discs without notification

Deepman

Just left my Car ( BMW ( 5 series) in for pads to be replaced but was annoyed that Discs were automatically replaced as well with job costing almost 400 Euros FOR JUST THE REAR ONES !!!!! I was advised that legal minimum for disc width/thickness is 22mm's and that my rear ones were down to 19mm's. As I did not see them I was having to take Garage's word for it which I hate to do as I know the staff are under instructions to replace EVERYTHING they can. Any views on this ? (My front pads are getting close to replacement in another 5 000 miles so I don't want to be gouged again for more disc replacements when its unecessary .

coylemj

Deepman wrote: »

Just left my Car ( BMW ( 5 series) in for pads to be replaced but was annoyed that Discs were automatically replaced as well with job costing almost 400 Euros FOR JUST THE REAR ONES !!!!! I was advised that legal minimum for disc width/thickness is 22mm's and that my rear ones were down to 19mm's. As I did not see them I was having to take Garage's word for it which I hate to do as I know the staff are under instructions to replace EVERYTHING they can...

By any chance was that place part of a chain that sells tyres? I seriously doubt that there is a single 'legal minimum' for brake discs on any model of car, if there was it would be specified as a failure criteria in the NCT and there is no such specification.

In the NCT manual, the only failure criteria for brake discs is: 'Missing, contaminated, obviously damaged, askew or insecure'. If there was a legal minimum thickness for the discs it would surely be specified there and it is not.

Tigger

coylemj wrote: »

By any chance was that place part of a chain that sells tyres?

I was going to ask the same

Deepman

No , it was a well known BMW Retailer and Service Provider. There appears to be a lot of "over - selling" of parts which do not need replacement at all but are replaced anyway to bump up Garage profitability and activity etc. People don't argue or question too much about anything to do with brakes but when I next leave my car in I will specifically instruct that no repairs are to be carried out or parts replaced without my express authorisation. I think Discs are needlessly replaced and Garages tend to do it automatically when pads need replacing whereas discs are usually good for 2 - 3 times pad replacement depending upon driving style ( ie heavy braker vs light braker). The absence of a minimum standard disc thickness leaves it wide open to manufacturers and garages to replace these items more frequently than is required and its not a cheap job !!!!

CiniO

Deepman wrote: »

Just left my Car ( BMW ( 5 series) in for pads to be replaced but was annoyed that Discs were automatically replaced as well with job costing almost 400 Euros FOR JUST THE REAR ONES !!!!! I was advised that legal minimum for disc width/thickness is 22mm's and that my rear ones were down to 19mm's. As I did not see them I was having to take Garage's word for it which I hate to do as I know the staff are under instructions to replace EVERYTHING they can. Any views on this ? (My front pads are getting close to replacement in another 5 000 miles so I don't want to be gouged again for more disc replacements when its unecessary .

There's no such thing as minimum legal disc thickness.
Each manufacturer would specify minimum for particular disc.

400 euro seems very overpriced for set of rear discs and pads.

If you went there to replace pads, and they replaced discs as well for the cost of 400 I would refuse to pay that, and tell them to fit old discs back.

Did they even show you the old discs?

bazz26

Did they give you an estimate of the cost and what parts were being replaced prior to doing the work? Why did you pay the bill if they replaced parts that were not mentioned initially or didn't notify you prior to doing the work. ? The time to question all this is before paying the bill rather than after. Paying the bill to me says you acknowledge the work they have just done.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

There's no such thing as minimum legal disc thickness.
Each manufacturer would specify minimum for particular disc.

400 euro seems very overpriced for set of rear discs and pads.

If you went there to replace pads, and they replaced discs as well for the cost of 400 I would refuse to pay that, and tell them to fit old discs back.

Did they even show you the old discs?

Assuming 23% VAT then the total bill is closer to €330. Assuming 2 hours labor @€;90 an hour leaves the parts bill at €150 for OEM discs and pads in a main dealer.

Which part is overpriced out of interest?

CiniO

166man wrote: »

Assuming 23% VAT then the total bill is closer to €330. Assuming 2 hours labor @€;90 an hour leaves the parts bill at €150 for OEM discs and pads in a main dealer.

Which part is overpriced out of interest?

2 hours labour....
You don't need that to change set of pads and discs.

mickdw

I think its bmw policy now to replace discs with all pad changes for models above 3 series.
If you just dropped the car in for rear brakes and if it is standard policy to replace discs each and every time, well they will say they didn't do any additional work and that 400 is the price of the brake job.
I did abit of research re my own car. The discs as fitted by audi to my car at factory were made by ATE. I found a data sheet for the actual disc from ATE. They specified an allowable wear TWICE that as specified by audi. Now I'm aware that there are additional variables depending on the actual car they are fitted too - car weight and performance, caliper type etc but it still smells as far as I'm concerned.

Captain Slow IRL

Deepman wrote: »

... The absence of a minimum standard disc thickness leaves it wide open to manufacturers and garages to replace these items more frequently than is required and its not a cheap job !!!!

The minimum allowable thickness is usually stamped onto the discs.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

2 hours labour....
You don't need that to change set of pads and discs.

an hour on each side is reasonable enough for pads and discs. Allowing for mechanics time in testing the car out afterwards and making sure brakes are bedded in.

Stop clutching at straws. Just because you wouldn't pay it doesn't make it overpriced.

biko

Moved out from old thread.

Tbh, I would have forced them to put the old discs back on, or at least show me the proof and the disc requirement.
Without notifying me they have no right to start changing stuff.

Learn to do these things yourself and save money and grief.

porsche boy

CiniO wrote:

400 euro seems very overpriced for set of rear discs and pads.

No, not really for a 5er. I am assuming it's an e60 or newer though.

CiniO wrote:

2 hours labour.... You don't need that to change set of pads and discs.

Well to do it properly you would. Removing caliper carrier, unwinding brake shoes, fitting new discs, setting the brake shoes for handbrake, refitting carriers, fitting brake pads and refitting caliper and test drive. If you can do it in less time then off ya go.

CiniO

166man wrote: »

an hour on each side is reasonable enough for pads and discs. Allowing for mechanics time in testing the car out afterwards and making sure brakes are bedded in.

Stop clutching at straws. Just because you wouldn't pay it doesn't make it overpriced.

Well, I'm not qualified mechanic, but I do stuff with my car. Just pure amateur work.
I dont' have proper equipment. I just have a halfords trolley jack, set of tools, and some space in front of my house.

And believe me, it takes me much less than 2 hours to change a set of pads and discs and bed them in.

If I can do it in an hour, then surely qualified mechanic in adequately equipped garage can as well.

shietpilot

CiniO wrote: »

Well, I'm not qualified mechanic, but I do stuff with my car. Just pure amateur work.
I dont' have proper equipment. I just have a halfords trolley jack, set of tools, and some space in front of my house.

And believe me, it takes me much less than 2 hours to change a set of pads and discs and bed them in.

If I can do it in an hour, then surely qualified mechanic in adequately equipped garage can as well.

A mechanic in a garage has to do a lot more. The brakes need to be inspected, thickness needs to be measured, and so on before any actual work needs to be done. They also need to actually get the brake discs and pads and get the correct ones.

Count in buying some parts for your own car and you'll see why it takes 2 hours.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Well, I'm not qualified mechanic, but I do stuff with my car. Just pure amateur work.
I dont' have proper equipment. I just have a halfords trolley jack, set of tools, and some space in front of my house.

And believe me, it takes me much less than 2 hours to change a set of pads and discs and bed them in.

If I can do it in an hour, then surely qualified mechanic in adequately equipped garage can as well.

Different cars require different amounts of work to do similar jobs. I can change the bulbs in my car in 5 minutes with no tools, does that mean that someone with a car that involves removing various parts should be able to to replace their bulbs in 5 minutes also?

jca

shietpilot wrote: »

A mechanic in a garage has to do a lot more. The brakes need to be inspected, thickness needs to be measured, and so on before any actual work needs to be done. They also need to actually get the brake discs and pads and get the correct ones.

Count in buying some parts for your own car and you'll see why it takes 2 hours.

Ha ha. This site cracks me up sometimes. You obviously never worked in a garage. Mechanic measuring this, ordering that blah blah. What a load of bollox.

shietpilot

jca wrote: »

Ha ha. This site cracks me up sometimes. You obviously never worked in a garage. Mechanic measuring this, ordering that blah blah. What a load of bollox.

I have indeed and you'd be surprised. At independent garages cars can be left up high on the lifts blocking the lift and waiting for parts to arrive.

I have done a parts run myself to get a clutch and flywheel for a VW Caddy because we couldn't afford waiting for parts to be delivered. That's 20 minutes wasted and you think the garage won't charge the customer?

And yes, they will measure minimum thickness of a brake disc before replacing it. Why would they replace it otherwise?

jca

This isn't an indy garage we're talking about here. Here's how it pans out in real life.
Foreman: That yoke's in for rear pads, put discs on it as well.
Mechanic: ok. T.J.(guy in stores) get me out a pair of discs and a set of pads for that car there. Here's the reg number.
Mechanic does the job, writes up his job card.
Ding ding, next victim please.

jca

Btw op I think you were robbed. €90 per hour is extortionate.

MIKEKC

166man wrote: »

Assuming 23% VAT then the total bill is closer to €330. Assuming 2 hours labor @€;90 an hour leaves the parts bill at €150 for OEM discs and pads in a main dealer.

Which part is overpriced out of interest?

Is VAT not 13.5

Nonoperational

jca wrote: »

Btw op I think you were robbed. €90 per hour is extortionate.

Main dealer BMW prices. The issue is that he didn't ask for discs.

the_syco

Deepman wrote: »

As I did not see them I was having to take Garage's word for it

Next time it happens, ask for the old ones back if you don't trust them.

Furthermore, as most garages don't allow you to drive away without paying, I'm surprised they changed the parts without your prior go ahead. Otherwise they risk you coming up with only the money for the job that you asked them to do, and not a cent more.

jca

Nonoperational wrote: »

Main dealer BMW prices. The issue is that he didn't ask for discs.

I know that. I can read.

wonski

shietpilot wrote: »

A mechanic in a garage has to do a lot more. The brakes need to be inspected, thickness needs to be measured, and so on before any actual work needs to be done. They also need to actually get the brake discs and pads and get the correct ones.

Count in buying some parts for your own car and you'll see why it takes 2 hours.

So we pay for them waiting for parts now???

Interesting view...

Ordering and waiting for parts @90 / hour.
Wow

jca

wonski wrote: »

So we pay for them waiting for parts now???

Interesting view...

Ordering and waiting for parts @90 / hour.
Wow

Shur they're bmw parts....only the best for BMW drivers, they being Ireland's elite and all...

Mech1

I would be surprised if you are quoting correct measurement 22mms is a very thick rear disc!

Deepman

Deepman wrote: »

when I next leave my car in

I hope they ride you again, to be honest.

Giving repeat business to a garage that pulled that is just silly on your own behalf. Find a decent, honest mechanic. They do exist.

Esel

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I hope they ride you again, to be honest.

Giving repeat business to a garage that pulled that is just silly on your own behalf. Find a decent, honest mechanic. They do exist.

Harsh, tbh.

@OP Certainly find a "decent, honest mechanic" - who will give you a detailed invoice that will prove that you have not invalidated any warranty which you may have.

@KKV People like to maintain a full (main stealer) service history. Don't slag them for that. I know the OP didn't say this, but the point still applies.

@OP again Ask next time. I presume you don't go to a main dealer for new tyres? Don't go Chinese for this - unless selling / trading in. After all, you won't be driving on them... :eek:

Cue user TROL.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

Well, I'm not qualified mechanic, but I do stuff with my car. Just pure amateur work.
I dont' have proper equipment. I just have a halfords trolley jack, set of tools, and some space in front of my house.

And believe me, it takes me much less than 2 hours to change a set of pads and discs and bed them in.

If I can do it in an hour, then surely qualified mechanic in adequately equipped garage can as well.

Frankly it doesn't matter a toss how fast you can do them or where you change your brakes.

An hour per side to change discs and pads and bed them in properly seems acceptable to me.

I'd be well impressed if you can change discs and pads and bed them in properly in an hour. If that's the case you should go work for a main dealer if you're that good.

@ people giving out about €90 an hour for labour. That's the rate lads, people have to be paid and the building rent has to be paid along with overheads. If ye don't like it then bring your business elsewhere.

/rant.

kirving

That's still not the point though is it.

Quoting a legal minimum for dics is absolute bull, as is not calling the customer to confirm before springing that kind of bill on them.

We all know that the free coffee machine and the leather couches in the main dealer have to be paid for in addition to everything else, and that's what the job costs if you were to ring up and ask.

If it was me, I would have told them to remove the dics, and they'd be getting a bill for my time spent waiting for them to do it.

166man

Kevin Irving wrote: »

That's still not the point though is it.

Quoting a legal minimum for dics is absolute bull, as is not calling the customer to confirm before springing that kind of bill on them.

We all know that the free coffee machine and the leather couches in the main dealer have to be paid for in addition to everything else, and that's what the job costs if you were to ring up and ask.

If it was me, I would have told them to remove the dics, and they'd be getting a bill for my time spent waiting for them to do it.

It's not the point of this thread correct, it was in relation to a poster saying €400 for rear discs and pads was very overpriced.

I'm in agreement with the majority here. If something was replaced without my saying so then I'd expect it to be put back. I'd definitely be interested to hear the condition of the older discs.

I'd have told them to replace with my older discs if there was nothing wrong with them, but it's a bit silly to try and land them with a bill for "your time". In the real world you won't see anything from that.

Esel

Esel wrote: »

Harsh, tbh.

@KKV People like to maintain a full (main stealer) service history. Don't slag them for that. I know the OP didn't say this, but the point still applies

Oh absolutely - If i bought a new car I'd be aiming for a 'proper' service history too, with all the stamps and everything looking official. But I wouldn't tolerate the dealer pulling nonsense like that.

I'm sure there's another dealer he could use (maybe not? Im not sure of BMW's network).

I have no issue with the price - I do have issue with them presuming he'll be in a position pay it, and thinking it's okay to just add costs onto the car without any heads up or notice at all.

They treated him like a chump, and they don't deserve his custom. He would be doing well to move elsewhere and advise others of the stunt they pulled.

I just think it's a real bullsh*t thing to do to someone. And I think if a person willingly returns to somewhere that pulled that, then they should know what they're getting in for.


As an aside, it surely can't possibly be a garage's policy to fix or change things without the owner's consent? Surely everyone in the country, from the most prestigious main dealer to the shadiest back alley mechanic, all know to ring someone to advise of additional work and get permission?!

CiniO

166man wrote: »

Frankly it doesn't matter a toss how fast you can do them or where you change your brakes.

An hour per side to change discs and pads and bed them in properly seems acceptable to me.

I'd be well impressed if you can change discs and pads and bed them in properly in an hour. If that's the case you should go work for a main dealer if you're that good.

@ people giving out about €90 an hour for labour. That's the rate lads, people have to be paid and the building rent has to be paid along with overheads. If ye don't like it then bring your business elsewhere.

/rant.

I had my front discs and pads recently changed on my civic.
It was done by small indy garage, and cost me €170.
I told the guy to get something reasonable. I asked for ATE or TRW. He couldn't source that quickly and I needed a car next day, so he fitted Mintex. I think they are very reasonable quality discs and pads.
I can't seem to see it anywhere below €120 so it meant that garage charged me €50 per labour. And that's about right.

Price OP was saying is mad.

mullingar

I just looked up autodata, on an e60 the time assigned to swapping rear discs/pads and to remove wheels is 1h10 mins.

Sam Kade

shietpilot wrote: »

I have indeed and you'd be surprised. At independent garages cars can be left up high on the lifts blocking the lift and waiting for parts to arrive.

I have done a parts run myself to get a clutch and flywheel for a VW Caddy because we couldn't afford waiting for parts to be delivered. That's 20 minutes wasted and you think the garage won't charge the customer?

And yes, they will measure minimum thickness of a brake disc before replacing it. Why would they replace it otherwise?

Brake discs are a wearing part do you really think a BMW main dealer wouldn't stock them?

shietpilot

Sam Kade wrote: »

Brake discs are a wearing part do you really think a BMW main dealer wouldn't stock them?

I'm sure they stock them but getting them takes time. Count in all the little chit chat in between and you'll easily get your 2 hours.

When I was working in a DOE centre (doing DOE tests on commercial vehicles and repairs) I learned about this. Realistically there's not a single car in a garage. There will be more than one mechanic and each will be going to help each other out in a trickier job, etc. Time gets wasted and a few "1 minute" stops turn into hours.

But what do I know? Boards.ie mechanics don't even measure brake thickness. They drop off the wheel, *POOF* new brake discs appears, job card gets written up and we scam the customer.

GM228

OP what is the exact model of your 5 series?

What I find odd is the rear discs on most (but not all 5 series) is normally 20mm from new and 24mm from new for the front although some models go upto 30mm for front discs, so 19mm wouldn't nornally be considered a replacement value until you hit at least 18mm.

Depends on your model though, for example and how long it take to go from say the 19mm to 18mm depends on your driving style.

It's also worth noting that on some models the rear rotors are built onto the bearing and have to be changed as one part (i.e combined disc/bearing) which brings the price up substantially.

Toyotafanboi

Am I the only one thinking €400 for supply and fit of rear pads and discs to a 5 series at a BMW main dealer is actually very reasonable?

mullingar

It's the expected overpriced bmw price, not a reasonable or fair price.

Toyotafanboi

mullingar wrote: »

It's the expected overpriced bmw price, not a reasonable or fair price.

I'd be assuming an hours labour on that job. €120 or there abouts.

Then that leaves you with around €280 in parts, €80 for the pads and €100 per disc say.

It's far from unthinkable. You can't take your car to main dealer and expect back alley prices. The free coffee isn't free.

Doing the discs without prior approval leaves them wide open and I wouldn't be condoning that at all, but the price is hardly all that bad.

Nonoperational

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking €400 for supply and fit of rear pads and discs to a 5 series at a BMW main dealer is actually very reasonable?

I agree.

Sam Kade

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking €400 for supply and fit of rear pads and discs to a 5 series at a BMW main dealer is actually very reasonable?

You know the saying, no point in buying a BMW if you can't afford the tyres

Mycroft H

shietpilot wrote: »

A mechanic in a garage has to do a lot more. The brakes need to be inspected, thickness needs to be measured, and so on before any actual work needs to be done. They also need to actually get the brake discs and pads and get the correct ones.

Count in buying some parts for your own car and you'll see why it takes 2 hours.

Two minutes with a vernier calipers to measure thickness.

That's enough time to get it out of its box and put it back again.

shietpilot

Mycroft H wrote: »

Two minutes with a vernier calipers to measure thickness.

That's enough time to get it out of its box and put it back again.

Oh I agree, but everything adds up. My point is things add up. DIYers always say "oh it took me only one hour" but sure they're not counting in preparation steps like that.

IMO OP was charged a normal price. They shouldn't have replaced the discs without asking but there's no point saying they scammed him by charging for 2 hours of labour! That is how long these things take, if done properly and tested properly.

Caliden

shietpilot wrote: »

Oh I agree, but everything adds up. My point is things add up. DIYers always say "oh it took me only one hour" but sure they're not counting in preparation steps like that.

IMO OP was charged a normal price. They shouldn't have replaced the discs without asking but there's no point saying they scammed him by charging for 2 hours of labour! That is how long these things take, if done properly and tested properly.

I think the OP's main issue is with the garage changing the discs without asking him to go ahead with it.

beauf

I've asked a main dealer to undo authorized disc work before on a different brand.

Doing unauthorized work says a lot about any business.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

jca

Fred Swanson wrote: »

How hard is for the garage to call the customer to seek authorisation for the extra work?

Probably charge him for the phone call if he says no..

kirving

It's absolutely no different from a guy who you ask to clean the gutters on your house also powerwashing your drive and wanting to be paid before he'll move his van.

Doesn't matter a bit if it's good value, or even that it had to be done, it's completely wrong.

FortySeven

Wow. Such hatred of bmw owners and dealers.

I work in a multi franchise dealership. Bmw authorised service and parts.

First. Labour rates.

Bmw technicians undergoe much more rigorous and ongoing brand specific training than you 50 Euro an hour indy. Indy stopped training at 24 Bmw technicians top up training yearly. They also complete online training constantly. They therefore command higher wages. Also, factor in the cost of maintaining a workshop to Bmw corporate standards. With strict working practices and strict health and safety policies. Standard operating procedures dictated by Bmw mean the job takes longer . These procedures ensure the best care of your car. Then factor in the cost of the technology required to correctly maintain such complex machines, Rheingold diagnostics are expensive and iirc required for rewinding the rear caliper correctly.

As for not measuring discs. Rubbish. The first thing done to any car that comes into our workshop is a full vhc. everything is inspected and if flagged for replacement required are put under further scrutiny.

My workplace has massive overheads. Hence the Labour cost but you will get your car back fixed, clean, with an itemized invoice and a warranty backed by a multinational company. It will have been fixed by highly trained technicians with the correct tools and the most up to date technology.

The dealer in question looks to have made a mistake fitting the discs without prior approval, this should not happen but it may have been a communication issue between service desk and technician. This would not be normal practice in a dealership.

An example. Had a car in recently. Brakes were shot, discs worn very, very badly. Seat belt buckle on the backseat which was (not) securing one of the three toddler seats was inoperable. Owner presented with vehicle health check report opted instead to have mud flaps fitted. Mud flaps were fitted and another unsafe vehicle left the workshop.

Dealers are not the rip off you all think. You don't want to know how often we get cars in from Indies who are in over their heads or how often they call in to pick our technicians brains. Nothing against Indies, most are good at what they do and good value but without significant diagnostic investment in their business they are becoming more and more limited in the work they can do.

400 for disc s and pads fitted is good value for Bmw. There is a reason it is called a premium brand.