All Ireland Senior Football Championship 2016

Fr Tod Umptious

Jayop wrote: »

What absolute horse****. Now I know you're either incredibly bias or are taking the piss.



Ah get out of it. If Galway or roscommon win it'll be a huge surprise. Mayo had a poor enough league but they're miles ahead of anyone else in Connacht.

For the neutral sitting down on a showery Sunday that Derry v Tyrone game was poor stuff. It could be argued that the closeness of the game the night before would have made it more exciting viewing than Sunday's.

I'm bias against Ulster football I'll admit that. For the most part it's horrid stuff to watch.
For example there is no way you would get the excitement of Westmeath v Meath in 2015 in Ulster

PressRun

I'm a neutral and I wasn't as put off by the game as some here. Derry were poor, but it was still interesting to see how Tyrone are setting up, what things Mickey Harte is trying out, how their forwards are getting on. I'm very much looking forward to seeing them play stronger teams later in the Ulster championship. It's by far the most interesting provincial.

armaghlad

Yeah, Ulster struggles to match the swashbuckling maverick sides in Leinster, like Kildare and Wexford serving a mouth watering 9-8 score fest :pac:

corny

PressRun wrote: »

I'm a neutral and I wasn't as put off by the game as some here. Derry were poor, but it was still interesting to see how Tyrone are setting up, what things Mickey Harte is trying out, how their forwards are getting on. I'm very much looking forward to seeing them play stronger teams later in the Ulster championship. It's by far the most interesting provincial.

No me neither. I didn't think Derry were that poor either. The goals they conceded killed them but they were clearly more overmatched than 'poor' imo.

One certainty in my mind is that Derry would have mopped the floor with Wexford and Kildare on Saturdays showing.

Don't know why its so unpalatable for people to concede Ulster has a more competitive championship.

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

Patww79 wrote: »

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As opposed to the all out attack on display in the other provinces? Give me a break.

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

Patww79 wrote: »

I never said it's all out attacking, and there are the odd side elsewhere playing the Ulster way, but on the whole it's never as dour and horrible a style of football.

The odd side? You're obviously on the wum. Even Dublin get loads of men back when defending, but even giving you Dublin there's not one other half decent side that don't defend in big numbers.

You're throwing out bs clichés now.

corny

Patww79 wrote: »

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Have you missed the fact that every team in Ireland is joining them playing this way though?

I keep banging on about Kildare and Wexford but i kid you not, Kildare lined up as if Micky Harte himself was in charge. Two sweepers running back ignoring the ball. Whats more sad is Emmet Bolton was one of them and he can actually play football. Its not just Ulster teams playing this way. (They started it yes but if you stick to that you've no point)

Actually the only thing that separates Kildare, Wexford, Derry and Tyrone is Tyrone play a bit of decent football in attack.

Nidgeweasel

I thought Derry were pathetic to be honest. Absolutely clueless. Emphasised the importance of the line in the modern game. That being said Tyrone were streets ahead regardless.

Tyrone have good hungry footballers and the wily old fox on the touchline. It's taken him (Harte) a while to stumble upon a right formula but they'll make a big push for the Ulster title.

I do think Donegal have better players but if push come to shove I would have little to no confidence in our management team having the team set up correctly and be sufficiently prepared to win the match. Harte on the other hand would have it set out.

We won't know where Tyrone are at until the final. Beyond that, they aren't realistic AI contenders for me and there's a lot of hot air being blown about regarding them.

Fr Tod Umptious

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

I thought Derry were pathetic to be honest. Absolutely clueless. Emphasised the importance of the line in the modern game. That being said Tyrone were streets ahead regardless.

Tyrone have good hungry footballers and the wily old fox on the touchline. It's taken him (Harte) a while to stumble upon a right formula but they'll make a big push for the Ulster title.

I do think Donegal have better players but if push come to shove I would have little to no confidence in our management team having the team set up correctly and be sufficiently prepared to win the match. Harte on the other hand would have it set out.

We won't know where Tyrone are at until the final. Beyond that, they aren't realistic AI contenders for me and there's a lot of hot air being blown about regarding them.

Exactly.
It will be the Ulstet final at the earliest before they meet anyone of any calibre in 2016.

Jayop

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

We won't know where Tyrone are at until the final. Beyond that, they aren't realistic AI contenders for me and there's a lot of hot air being blown about regarding them.

The first part of that is totally correct and even at the final should we get there it really needs to be you guys we meet to show where we are. I think even if we did beat Monaghan in the final it would still leave questions to be answered. We do need to navigate a semi first though and while I'd have more confidence going into a game against Cavan or Armagh than I did at the weekend (Derry still scare me) we really should be winning.

As for the second part, I haven't heard any blowing about Tyrone coming from within the county. Even the ex players and the voxpop (is that the term) that was taken after the game on BBC had the Tyrone support very much playing it down and taking the one game at a time approach. Being honest, I think anyone in Tyrone would be very disappointed if we didn't at least match last year and get to a semifinal, be that through the front door or the back. The handiest route is clearly by winning Ulster but that's a big ask given t he hoodoo you have over us. Even if we were to lose in Ulster I'd be pissed off if we can't come though the qualifiers given that even the likes of Cork won't be in till the 4th round.

There's a lot of talk but at the moment it's talk in the media and that's about it. There's still not been one person to predict us to win an AI so the "hot air" is that we'll get to a semi or final. That's where we were last year so it's not exactly coming from no-where.

We look a much more cohesive team now so I'll be praying we get at least an Ulster title.

Bonniedog

corny wrote: »

Have you missed the fact that every team in Ireland is joining them playing this way though?

I keep banging on about Kildare and Wexford but i kid you not, Kildare lined up as if Micky Harte himself was in charge. Two sweepers running back ignoring the ball. Whats more sad is Emmet Bolton was one of them and he can actually play football. Its not just Ulster teams playing this way. (They started it yes but if you stick to that you've no point)

Actually the only thing that separates Kildare, Wexford, Derry and Tyrone is Tyrone play a bit of decent football in attack.

A lot of the dimmer management teams have bought into the simplistic notion that having your entire team inside your own 40 is the key to success.

Neglecting, meanwhile, the fact that you actually need good players with something between their ears, oh, and fellas who can score ...


there is no comparison between Tyrone and Donegal, and their would be imitators who haven't a notion of what Harte and McGuinness actually did!

Jayop

Bonniedog wrote: »

A lot of the dimmer management teams have bought into the simplistic notion that having your entire team inside your own 40 is the key to success.

Neglecting, meanwhile, the fact that you actually need good players with something between their ears, oh, and fellas who can score ...


there is no comparison between Tyrone and Donegal, and their would be imitators who haven't a notion of what Harte and McGuinness actually did!

Even the club game is really screwed with this. I've been at matches where teams playing with a gale in their favour are still playing with 2 sweepers and FA for them to sweep up.

Bonniedog

Jayop wrote: »

Even the club game is really screwed with this. I've been at matches where teams playing with a gale in their favour are still playing with 2 sweepers and FA for them to sweep up.

Best comment on it all was Tomás Mulcahy yesterday during the hurling:

"Cork nine points down and still playing a sweeper....."

His "fks sake" etc was not included!

Defence is crucial part of any game. but it has been taken to absurdity by some teams, including as you say, at club level.

Harte and McGuinness created myth about their teams that bore o reality to what they were actually capable of. Parking the bus! their teams destroyed ourselves. Kerry, Mayo and others when they were good. nothing to do with parking buses or whatever.

Nidgeweasel

Jayop wrote: »

The first part of that is totally correct and even at the final should we get there it really needs to be you guys we meet to show where we are. I think even if we did beat Monaghan in the final it would still leave questions to be answered. We do need to navigate a semi first though and while I'd have more confidence going into a game against Cavan or Armagh than I did at the weekend (Derry still scare me) we really should be winning.

As for the second part, I haven't heard any blowing about Tyrone coming from within the county. Even the ex players and the voxpop (is that the term) that was taken after the game on BBC had the Tyrone support very much playing it down and taking the one game at a time approach. Being honest, I think anyone in Tyrone would be very disappointed if we didn't at least match last year and get to a semifinal, be that through the front door or the back. The handiest route is clearly by winning Ulster but that's a big ask given t he hoodoo you have over us. Even if we were to lose in Ulster I'd be pissed off if we can't come though the qualifiers given that even the likes of Cork won't be in till the 4th round.

There's a lot of talk but at the moment it's talk in the media and that's about it. There's still not been one person to predict us to win an AI so the "hot air" is that we'll get to a semi or final. That's where we were last year so it's not exactly coming from no-where.

We look a much more cohesive team now so I'll be praying we get at least an Ulster title.

It's not from Tyrone themselves, but a lot of hype in the media. Only team to beat the dubs etc etc

I don't tend to listen to the media because they haven't got a clue for the most part (see Donegal last year), but I have I have to say the blowing up in the press has been very noticeable at an early stage.

Brolly has annointed Tyrone as his pet project for the season anyway, until of course they lose and he crucifies them. Brolly's circle of life.

Jayop

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

It's not from Tyrone themselves, but a lot of hype in the media. Only team to beat the dubs etc etc

I don't tend to listen to the media because they haven't got a clue for the most part (see Donegal last year), but I have I have to say the blowing up in the press has been very noticeable at an early stage.

Brolly has annointed Tyrone as his pet project for the season anyway, until of course they lose and he crucifies them. Brolly's circle of life.

lol ah yeah. Brolly drives me nuts. I honestly can't stand him on TV, but I really enjoying his writing even though you need to take it all with a pinch of salt. The two articles last week, one about the brother asking him to blow kisses after he scored a goal and the other about him living in London were both very funny reads,.

PressRun

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Brolly has annointed Tyrone as his pet project for the season anyway, until of course they lose and he crucifies them. Brolly's circle of life.

During the league he was worshipping at the altar of Kerry and as soon as they lost the league final, he was the first in line to twist the blade. If something similar happens to Tyrone, I'm sure we can expect the same treatment. He's a gas man.

kilns

The championship is only a few weeks old and we have the same old problems with it and its highlighted with teams like Derry with people saying once they lose thats it, they cant be bothered so the younger lads will head off to New York etc, the same for Leitrim and so on

What everyone is crying out for is regular games in the summer. The chances are teams like Leitrim will lose in the first round of qualifiers and then they will not play another game until next Feb/March, which is crazy

I am sure it has been proposed before but my thinking should be we follow the NFL template with conferences and a regular season leading into playoffs. My proposal gives teams a minimum of 8 games in the championship and with using the template that with the idea that the worst team in the NFL gets first draft pick, I propose the worst teams from the previous season are given a sort of leg up by avoiding some of the bigger counties in the following regular season, giving hope and a winning momentum to some

This how I would see it pan out

You would not have the same old Cork play Kerry every year. Kerry could play 8 counties from any conference and if their record is better than Corks at the end of the season then they top the conference and vice versa


North
West
East
South














Antrim
Mayo
Dublin
Cork














Down
Galway
Kildare
Kerry














Armagh
Roscommon
Meath
Tipp














Tyrone
Leitrim
Louth
Waterford














Derry
Longford
Laois
Limerick














Donegal
Sligo
Offaly
Clare














Monaghan
Westmeath
Carlow
London














Fermanagh
Cavan
Wicklow
Wexford
































8 Regular Season Games
















3 Categories - Top 8 teams, Worst 8 teams, all other 16 teams












8 Worst records from previous season go into worst 8 team category - they get seeded and can only play max 3 of the top seeds in regular season. All other teams are drawn openly

Top team from each conference based on season record gain direct entry to quarter finals









Team 2 and 3 in each conference, play off to enter q final













Open Draw for Q final
















Open Draw for Semi Final















Final

Jayop

So a young lad developed and from Kerry could be selected by antrim? That's completely unworkable in an amateur environment.

kilns

No, where did you get that from?

Jayop

kilns wrote: »

No, where did you get that from?

From this....

My proposal gives teams a minimum of 8 games in the championship and with the idea that the worst team in the NFL gets first draft pick

A draft pick means the weakest teams from the last year gets first choice from the latest pool of players.

kilns

Yes, I said take that template and use it so that the 8 weakest teams are seeded for next years draw and can only play a max of 3 of the top 8 teams next season. All other teams are in an open draw for the regular season. E.G. the 16th best team last year could potentially draw all top 8 teams to play. This gives last seasons weakest teams a potental of at least 5 winnable games

Jayop

kilns wrote: »

Yes, I said take that template and use it so that the 8 weakest teams are seeded for next years draw and can only play a max of 3 of the top 8 teams next season. All other teams are in an open draw for the regular season. E.G. the 16th best team last year could potentially draw all top 8 teams to play. This gives last seasons weakest teams a potental of at least 5 winnable games

Ah right so the draft isn't about selecting players, but more about selecting the groupings.

kilns

Yes, more or less providing the weaker teams with more winnable games the following year

Amazing what a few wins can do for morale in a county. For example Leitrim are ranked as a bottom 8 team the following year, they are drawn to play in the summer Dublin, Tyrone, Monaghan, Clare, Louth, Antrim, Wexford and Limerick.

There are 5 winnable games for them in that. If not seeded, they could potentially draw more top tier teams

Fr Tod Umptious

I assume the above idea gets rid of the current NFL also ?

The one problem about asking Carlow and Wicklow to play 8 games in the summer is that it gets in the way of their all important harvest and club championship.

The All Ireland senior football championship is not the be all and end all for many counties and never will be.

By the way can the mods make a sticky for "Alternative Football Championship Structures"

kilns

Maybe not totally but downsize is someway

If you have a defined period of when your teams are playing you can work the club structure around it then. For example, the regular season starts at beginnning of April, a game every two weeks for every team to mid July, then the playoffs. Club championship can be run on some alternate weekends and for 20 counties their season will be over in mid July so no excuse with club championship then

I think if you ask any player they would rather be playing regular football in the summer rather than slogging it out in the league on heavy pitches in wintery conditions and I dont any player dreams of winning a Div 4 title, they want to be playing in Croke Park in the height of summer

ProudDUB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I assume the above idea gets rid of the current NFL also ?

The one problem about asking Carlow and Wicklow to play 8 games in the summer is that it gets in the way of their all important harvest and club championship.

The All Ireland senior football championship is not the be all and end all for many counties and never will be.

By the way can the mods make a sticky for "Alternative Football Championship Structures"

8 games is eminantly doable imo, if you reduce the ridiculous amount of training sessions that inter county teams currently do & replace them with actual matches.

Jayop

ProudDUB wrote: »

8 games is eminantly doable imo, if you reduce the ridiculous amount of training sessions that inter county teams currently do & replace them with actual matches.

Yip. I'm sure Leitrim are doing at least 3 training sessions a week now while they wait for their next and likely last game of the summer at the end of June. Ask them players would they rather be doing light training with a game at the weekend or training like dogs to get beat and out. I'm sure the answer would be near unanimous.

Are the county boys even allowed to play club before they go out of the championship? I know a lot of counties don't allow it.

kilns

Thats it, they get a regular run of games, if they lose one they know they are back out again in 2 weeks time. I dont blame teams not giving a toss about the championship currently, to lose and then wait another month to lose again and then thats it. Longford had about 9 players who opted out this year, can you blame them. But if they had regular summer games they would probably play and teams like Longford would improve for it

Some inter county managers bring it to ridiculous lengths by not letting players near their clubs. The best form of training and to keep sharpness are playing games. Its ironic that the best team in Ireland have one of the most liberal managers with regard to this.

Jayop

I agree but I wouldn't do it how you said. I've already details in this thread and others how I would do it so I won't bore everyone by repeating it again but there are some really straightforward solutions.

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

Patww79 wrote: »

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Can you drop them? Surely if they don't opt out then you're stuck with them.

PTH2009

Who are the teams A/B Qualifer Groups

dates are as follows

Group A

1st Round (8 teams)- Sat 18th June (Evening time i imagine as the Ireland vs Belgium Euros match kicks off at 2pm)

2nd Round (4 1st Rd winners vs 4 Prov Semi Losers)- Sat 2nd July

3rd Round- (4 teams)- Sat 9th July

4th Round- (2 3rd Rd winners vs Connacht/Munster Finalist)- Sat 23 July

All Ire QF- (2 4th Rd winners vs Connacht/Munster Champions) Sat 30-1st Aug

Group B

1st Round (8 teams)- Sat 25 June

2nd Round (4 1st Rd winners vs 4 Prov Semi Losers)- Sat 9th July

3rd Round (4 teams)- Sat 16 July

4th Round- (2 3rd Rd winners vs Leinster/Ulster Finalist)-Sat 30 July- 1st Aug

All Ire QF (2 4th Rd winners vs Leinster/Ulster Champions)- Sat 06 Aug

Stoner

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

By the way can the mods make a sticky for "Alternative Football Championship Structures"

Why so?

ProudDUB

We've too many stickies as is. I don't see the point of half of them.

Fr Tod Umptious

Stoner wrote: »

Why so?

Because all summer this thread and others will be littered with random ideas about changes to the championship, some good, some terrible, but if there was a dedicated thread for them they may be debated better.

Bonniedog

Jaysus lads. Its been the same since the year zip.

Don't mean to be unkind but when was last time Wicklow or Leitrim or Waterford were in with a shout of winning the SFC?

And who gives a fkying fk anyway?

they don't because if they did, they would be putting out teams that might beat the Nemo Rangers Junior c

Ce la vie...

Jayop

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because all summer this thread and others will be littered with random ideas about changes to the championship, some good, so terrible, but if there was a dedicated thread for them they may be debated better.

I'm sure there was a thread last summer after the GPA idea.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Bonniedog wrote: »

Jaysus lads. Its been the same since the year zip.

Don't mean to be unkind but when was last time Wicklow or Leitrim or Waterford were in with a shout of winning the SFC?

And who gives a fkying fk anyway?

they don't because if they did, they would be putting out teams that might beat the Nemo Rangers Junior c

Ce la vie...

Then they might as well have their own level of competition to compete as it's a waste of time them competing in the same championship as teams who are miles better than them. That's the issue.Nobody expects any structure change to dramatically improve the fortunes of some of the weaker counties but it first might give these teams more competitive matches against teams of their own level (which I think would help them) and secondly would reduce the number of pointless mismatches that occur in the championship.Too many games in the championship are know to be mismatches before the ball is thrown in yet teams have to still go through the motions of playing them.

armaghlad

Totally against a second tier competition. It was tried and failed. The counties that would be involved don't want it. Neutrals will take even less notice of games invloving these counties and any romance associated with the odd giant slaying will be gone for good. It literally serves no purpose to put the bottom 8 or so teams into their own competition.

nice_guy80

A seperate competition for Division 3 and 4 counties who then enter at the last 16 would be better

Bonniedog

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Then they might as well have their own level of competition to compete as it's a waste of time them competing in the same championship as teams who are miles better than them. That's the issue.Nobody expects any structure change to dramatically improve the fortunes of some of the weaker counties but it first might give these teams more competitive matches against teams of their own level (which I think would help them) and secondly would reduce the number of pointless mismatches that occur in the championship.Too many games in the championship are know to be mismatches before the ball is thrown in yet teams have to still go through the motions of playing them.

If Waterford can have a decent hurling team, then there is nothing to prevent them having a decent football team. Other than the lack of desire on their part.

I would suggest. Which is their own business. You can't organise an entire championship to suit them, or to make them feel better about the fact that they are terrible, and don't want to be any less terrible, probably!

Fr Tod Umptious

nice_guy80 wrote: »

A seperate competition for Division 3 and 4 counties who then enter at the last 16 would be better

Why excluded better teams, Div 1 and Div 2 counties, from the last 16 in favour of weaker ones ?

armaghlad

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Then they might as well have their own level of competition to compete as it's a waste of time them competing in the same championship as teams who are miles better than them. That's the issue.

You could almost apply this logic to every county V the Dubs... realistically they'll hammer 90% of the rest with the other 10% capable of offering some token resistance only

SureYWouldntYa

I never got why people are against a B competition for the inter county teams

Does anyone have a problem with clubs being split into Senior/Intermediate/Junior in their county? If a club wins the intermediate championship do they not celebrate because it's only the "B" competiton?

When your local minor team win the division 4 championship, do they not celebrate it too? Or do they not because it's the "D" competition

Makes no sense to have things work like this at club level, and not at county level when there would probably be a desire for it

Bonniedog

They had one! Tommy Murphy. There was no interest in it at all. About 300 people and a dog used to turn up for the final!

Can you even remember who won it? I honestly can't. Wicklow one year maybe?

SureYWouldntYa

Bonniedog wrote: »

They had one! Tommy Murphy. There was no interest in it at all. About 300 people and a dog used to turn up for the final!

Can you even remember who won it? I honestly can't. Wicklow one year maybe?

Was it given the same attention by the media as the All Ireland? Or any for that matter

If the Tommy Murphy Cup was the counties only championship, ie they dont get knocked out of the Sam Maguire first, then the counties would treat it more seriously

And there needs to be an incentive to win, ie promotion

Bonniedog

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

Was it given the same attention by the media as the All Ireland? Or any for that matter

If the Tommy Murphy Cup was the counties only championship, ie they dont get knocked out of the Sam Maguire first, then the counties would treat it more seriously

And there needs to be an incentive to win, ie promotion

You can't force people to like something!

They voted with their feet. I seem to recall that the great Micko was totally dismissive of it when he was Wicklow manager. Said something to effect that beating Dublin in O'Byrne be worth ten Tommy murphys!

Pretty good authority now, you would have to say ..

armaghlad

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

I never got why people are against a B competition for the inter county teams

Does anyone have a problem with clubs being split into Senior/Intermediate/Junior in their county? If a club wins the intermediate championship do they not celebrate because it's only the "B" competiton?

When your local minor team win the division 4 championship, do they not celebrate it too? Or do they not because it's the "D" competition

Makes no sense to have things work like this at club level, and not at county level when there would probably be a desire for it

There isn't a desire for it though. That's the crux of it. If Antrim, Waterford, Wicklow, Leitrim, Carlow, London et al showed some desire to leave the AI SFC and play in a secondary competition then I'd fully support it. They don't though. Their players don't. Their supporters don't. It's ridiculous when this argument comes up, we should be debating ways in which to improve football in these counties, not how to get rid of them from the AI championship.

EDIT: Your point about club football is moot as in many counties clubs decide themselves what grade they play championship at