N11 Cycle Lane

KarmaGarda

I've moved home from London recently and moved to Blackrock. I'm baffled by the N11 cycle lane. Interested in hearing the cyclists views on this cycle lane. From a pedestrians point of view it is a death trap for the both of us. Especially at bus stops. I get the bus northbound from Mt Merrion Ave, near the Esso, and regularly see issues when a bus arrives. Generally not with myself as coming from London I have become accustomed to bad London cyclists (so far Irish cyclists seem like a much better natured and careful bunch!).

Firstly, I'm confused as to why the cycle lane is on the footpath and roadside. For example, bus coming this morning, lady is belting it down the cycle lane but not near the bus stop yet, guy steps out to hail a bus. Lady cyclist obviously has to slow down, but doesn't want to slow too much, so has a go at the lad hailing the bus to get out of the way. Happens every morning, sometimes there's almost a collision between a cyclist and pedestrian. Quite often the pedestrian is also at fault. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear a couple of horror stories.

Are they planning on moving the bus stops out and making the cycle lane travel behind the stops? Surely that would make more sense? it seems like a safer option to both cyclists and pedestrians.

Next, I'm confused as to why apparently it's illegal for cyclists to use a lot of bus lanes. Why are busses seen as God transport? Surely these lanes can be seen as express routes for bikes as well seeing as they are an environmentally friendly mode of transport. Or maybe they are already planning on opening bus lanes up to cyclists?

I like cyclists, and do want us to get along nicely together. Especially after going through regular nightmares in London where cyclists weren't the nicest people on the roads and some pedestrians weren't either to be fair. Both got aggressive if you tried to reason with either when an incident occurred!

cython

KarmaGarda wrote: »

I've moved home from London recently and moved to Blackrock. I'm baffled by the N11 cycle lane. Interested in hearing the cyclists views on this cycle lane. From a pedestrians point of view it is a death trap for the both of us. Especially at bus stops. I get the bus northbound from Mt Merrion Ave, near the Esso, and regularly see issues when a bus arrives. Generally not with myself as coming from London I have become accustomed to bad London cyclists (so far Irish cyclists seem like a much better natured and careful bunch!).

Firstly, I'm confused as to why the cycle lane is on the footpath and roadside. For example, bus coming this morning, lady is belting it down the cycle lane but not near the bus stop yet, guy steps out to hail a bus. Lady cyclist obviously has to slow down, but doesn't want to slow too much, so has a go at the lad hailing the bus to get out of the way. Happens every morning, sometimes there's almost a collision between a cyclist and pedestrian. Quite often the pedestrian is also at fault. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear a couple of horror stories.

Are, they planning on moving the bus stops out and making the cycle lane travel behind the stops? Surely that would make more sense? it seems like a safer option to both cyclists and pedestrians.

Next, I'm confused as to why apparently it's illegal for cyclists to use a lot of bus lanes. Why are busses seen as God transport? Surely these lanes can be seen as express routes for bikes as well seeing as they are an environmentally friendly mode of transport. Or maybe they are already planning on opening bus lanes up to cyclists?

I like cyclists, and do want us to get along nicely together. Especially after going through regular nightmares in London where cyclists weren't the nicest people on the roads and some pedestrians weren't either to be fair. Both got aggressive if you tried to reason with either when an incident occurred!

I don't know much about the N11 cycle lane specifically, save that it is oft-lambasted on here, but on the point in bold - it's actually legal for cyclists to use any bus lane, including contra-flow ones. The legislation that allows for bus lanes designates that cyclists may use all (or at least virtually all, there may be an edge case I'm unaware of) the types of bus lanes that it prescribes.

buffalo

KarmaGarda wrote: »

Next, I'm confused as to why apparently it's illegal for cyclists to use a lot of bus lanes.

It's not, despite the opinion of a few bus drivers. See explanatory note at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

consolidation of regulation provisions of 1997-2011 for use of bus lanes (including change in law to permit pedal cyclists to use contra-flow bus lanes and bus-only streets)

Chips Lovell

N11 cycle lane is awful. I wouldn't go near it.

Danjamin1

The surface of the cycle lane is actually fairly decent along some sections of the N11, specifically around Mt Merrion Ave. however it's a complete joke in other sections. I always thought it was a bit of a death trap the way there's a crossover between cycle lane & bus stop, it happens at a few points along the road but the lane goes behind the stops at other points.

It's much easier to stick to the bus lane, the only issue is when bus drivers, and I have to say more frequently coach drivers (Aircoach in particular), feel that you don't have a right to be there & decide to teach you a lesson (punishment passes, squeezing you to the kerb, horn honking, etc.)

Plastik

It's badly designed and poorly surfaced for the most part. I used it again this morning for the first time in a while, but in general I stick to coming into town via the Rock Road.

tomasrojo

The cycle track is very poor and in places really quite weird. The bus lane is, as already said, rendered unpleasant by punishment passes. I just try to use the parallel roads.

KarmaGarda

cython wrote: »

...but on the point in bold - it's actually legal for cyclists to use any bus lane, including contra-flow ones. The legislation that allows for bus lanes designates that cyclists may use all (or at least virtually all, there may be an edge case I'm unaware of) the types of bus lanes that it prescribes.

buffalo wrote: »

It's not, despite the opinion of a few bus drivers. See explanatory note at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

Thanks for the clarification on this! I think it's only fair that cyclists should be allowed to use bus lanes. Maybe a few bus drivers need to be slapped with some fines to show cyclists a bit of respect on them.

KarmaGarda

Danjamin1 wrote: »

The surface of the cycle lane is actually fairly decent along some sections of the N11, specifically around Mt Merrion Ave. however it's a complete joke in other sections. I always thought it was a bit of a death trap the way there's a crossover between cycle lane & bus stop, it happens at a few points along the road but the lane goes behind the stops at other points.

It's much easier to stick to the bus lane, the only issue is when bus drivers, and I have to say more frequently coach drivers (Aircoach in particular), feel that you don't have a right to be there & decide to teach you a lesson (punishment passes, squeezing you to the kerb, horn honking, etc.)

I wonder if they will look to push it behind all the stops (move out stops that are currently against the walls). This would make much more sense to me.

Macy0161

N11 is my usual cycle commute. I don't think it's that bad for the most part, inbound at least. Could be better obviously, but I'd say it's improved in the few years I've been doing it. I went a (shorter) alternative this week as I was running late and feeling sick (Lambs Cross to Clonskeagh), and to be honest found it was more stressful/ frustrating with where those bike lanes spat you out/ indicated to give way.

Interaction with bus stops would be one of my bugbears with the N11 cycle lane infrastructure wise though. Every bus stop is different - there's a run of three from foxrock where each one is different. First one cycle lane goes behind the bus stop, next one the cycle lane goes in front of the bus stop (i.e. passengers have to cross/ enter the cycle lane to flag down a bus or get on/off), and then the next one the cycle lane spits you out into the actual bus stopping area.

Whites Cross to Brewery Road I'd often take the bus lane rather the cycle lane, but it can be dodgy enough with the frustrated buses, and more often tbh, watching for cars queue skipping. Neither the bus lane or cycle lane put you in a great position at the end of that section. I kinda make that call individually every morning based on the traffic!

ted1

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

N11 cycle lane is awful. I wouldn't go near it.

I use it every day, it's not to bad. There's few bad places but as a whole it's not to bad.
It's much better than the alternate coast road.

If they sorted out the bus stops and the junction by stillorgan/blakes it'd be much better.

It dies detoriate from UCD inwards ( which is where Dubkin City take responsibility )

KarmaGarda

Macy0161 wrote: »

N11 is my usual cycle commute. I don't think it's that bad for the most part, inbound at least. Could be better obviously, but I'd say it's improved in the few years I've been doing it. I went a (shorter) alternative this week as I was running late and feeling sick (Lambs Cross to Clonskeagh), and to be honest found it was more stressful/ frustrating with where those bike lanes spat you out/ indicated to give way.

Interaction with bus stops would be one of my bugbears with the N11 cycle lane infrastructure wise though. Every bus stop is different - there's a run of three from foxrock where each one is different. First one cycle lane goes behind the bus stop, next one the cycle lane goes in front of the bus stop (i.e. passengers have to cross/ enter the cycle lane to flag down a bus or get on/off), and then the next one the cycle lane spits you out into the actual bus stopping area.

Whites Cross to Brewery Road I'd often take the bus lane rather the cycle lane, but it can be dodgy enough with the frustrated buses, and more often tbh, watching for cars queue skipping. Neither the bus lane or cycle lane put you in a great position at the end of that section. I kinda make that call individually every morning based on the traffic!

I might try one of the earlier stops anymore to see if one does what you say and allows cyclists behind the bus stop. I'm just waiting on that day when I've had a couple of school night pints and I'm not 100% with it... cue stepping out in front of a cyclist and landing on one's botty.

eeeee

I'm On the n11 almost every day. Hate it. Don't use the cycle lanes at all bar one stretch after the bus stop at ucd to Booterstown avenue. They're horrendously designed and in absolute Shyte. Punishment passes are common. If I wasn't constantly late I wouldn't use it half as much :pac:

KarmaGarda

ted1 wrote: »

I use it every day, it's not to bad. There's few bad places but as a whole it's not to bad.
It's much better than the alternate coast road.

If they sorted out the bus stops and the junction by stillorgan/blakes it'd be much better.

It dies detoriate from UCD inwards ( which is where Dubkin City take responsibility )

Just past Stillorgan village is where I catch the bus and that is indeed one of the stops that needs to be reworked. I see a near incident every few mornings to be honest. A mix between people coming off the pedestrian crossing and people jumping out to hail a bus.

Danjamin1

Plastik wrote: »

It's badly designed and poorly surfaced for the most part. I used it again this morning for the first time in a while, but in general I stick to coming into town via the Rock Road.

I personally think the Rock road is far worse! The road is in poorer condition, the on road cycle lanes are narrow which seems to invite buses to try & squeeze past, and there's more traffic lights. Between the two roads I think the N11 wins.

Plastik

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I personally think the Rock road is far worse! The road is in poorer condition, the on road cycle lanes are narrow which seems to invite buses to try & squeeze past, and there's more traffic lights. Between the two roads I think the N11 wins.

Gas how opinions differ!

Traffic lights - depends where you're going. A pal of mine felt the same so one day out of boredom we counted them in from Cornelscourt. Near as makes no difference the same.

Cycle lanes - are for the most part on-road which give you primary road position over vehicles looking to exit from the left, over vehicles looking to make left turns, and there's no conflict with bus stops/passengers.

The cycle lane is in poor condition passing by Blackrock college but in my opinion no worse than many of the stretches on the N11 - and there's only the one short stretch each way. I have very, very rarely had a bus try to punishment pass or squeeze by - or for that matter blow me out of it for keeping out of the poorly surfaced parts.

Lower road for me, every time. Even the bus lane on the N11 is in poor condition in a lot of places, never mind the cycle lane.

Danjamin1

Plastik wrote: »

Gas how opinions differ!

Traffic lights - depends where you're going. A pal of mine felt the same so one day out of boredom we counted them in from Cornelscourt. Near as makes no difference the same.

Cycle lanes - are for the most part on-road which give you primary road position over vehicles looking to exit from the left, over vehicles looking to make left turns, and there's no conflict with bus stops/passengers.

The cycle lane is in poor condition passing by Blackrock college but in my opinion no worse than many of the stretches on the N11 - and there's only the one short stretch each way. I have very, very rarely had a bus try to punishment pass or squeeze by - or for that matter blow me out of it for keeping out of the poorly surfaced parts.

Lower road for me, every time. Even the bus lane on the N11 is in poor condition in a lot of places, never mind the cycle lane.

It's a while since I cycled it to be fair, I could just have a soured opinion of it due to that stretch at Blackrock College. I always hated the outbound stretch coming up to Vincents in rush hour, the cars are packed tight & as close to the kerb as they can get.

Plastik

That section certainly hasn't improved since you last rode it, always jammed!

DirkVoodoo

Neither is perfect:

Rock road: Tara towers is a disaster! There should be a marked lane here. Also by the Toyota garage (where the circus used to park up) is a mess and you need to ride assertively in the lane.

There is far too much dangerous undertaking by motorists.

N11: Cycle lanes are a joke for the most part. Bad surface and mostly just an extension of the footpath. As mentioned, lots of bad overtaking if you take the bus lane.

I don't agree that routing lanes behind bus stops works...you get people standing out of view or walking down the bike lane, again totally hidden from the cyclist. Only safe if you're cycling at walking speed...which I think is how most of these lanes were designed!

I'd like to see bus lanes clearly marked as shared spaces, hold the drivers to account for dangerous overtaking and pulling in immediately after passing. Buses and cars. If the RSA actually made one useful public service announcement, it would be that CYCLISTS CAN USE THE BUS LANES because it's amazing how many people don't know this!

Planet X

Been cycling it everyday for the last 20 years.
Great fun. Just want to be aware of what's knockin' about.
Buses........taxis.....gotta laugh.

average_runner

What doesn't help is when cyclist and cars don't signal. I know it is law for cars to do it, but is it law for cyclists?

Lumen

Does drafting the buses help?

buffalo

average_runner wrote: »

What doesn't help is when cyclist and cars don't signal. I know it is law for cars to do it, but is it law for cyclists?

Is it law for cars?

Macy0161

Before I moved job, I used to go the Rock Road, and generally found it ok. But did have a few punishment passes/ too close for comfort by aircoaches.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't agree that routing lanes behind bus stops works...you get people standing out of view or walking down the bike lane, again totally hidden from the cyclist. Only safe if you're cycling at walking speed...which I think is how most of these lanes were designed!

Yeah, I'm not really sure on the best option. The busy stops where they go behind, the bus queue tends to over flow into them as well, which with the numbers with headphones doesn't really help.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I'd like to see bus lanes clearly marked as shared spaces, hold the drivers to account for dangerous overtaking and pulling in immediately after passing. Buses and cars. If the RSA actually made one useful public service announcement, it would be that CYCLISTS CAN USE THE BUS LANES because it's amazing how many people don't know this!

I tend to go home the Clonskeagh Road - if it's shared space we want, then we should just go for Mandatory Cycle Lanes, as anything seems to go in them! They've definitely become a defact two wheel lane anyway, given the number of motorbikes and scooters that think they're allowed to use them (well I suppose they're never pulled for illegally using bus lanes either!).

average_runner

buffalo wrote: »

Is it law for cars?

Always thought it was law, saw a guard pulling someone in for it once.

Could be wrong

Planet X

average_runner wrote: »

Always thought it was law, saw a guard pulling someone in for it once.

Could be wrong

Could've been a two or one finger signal :-)

buffalo

average_runner wrote: »

Always thought it was law, saw a guard pulling someone in for it once.

Could be wrong

You can find plenty of stories on here about Gardaí pulling people over for not wearing helmets, not using the cycle lane, etc.

I've just never heard of someone being fined/penalised/convicted for not indicating.

Chips Lovell

average_runner wrote: »

What doesn't help is when cyclist and cars don't signal. I know it is law for cars to do it, but is it law for cyclists?

Yes

Seaswimmer

I think the Rock Road/ Merrion Gates option is the best currently. From the N11 at Cornelscourt you have bus or cycle lane to Merrion Gates apart from the bits at Tara Towers and Deansgrange Cross to Stradbrook Road

There are also long stretches without lights. From the lights at Tara Towers you don't get lights again until Marine Drive (bar a couple of pedestrian lights). A distance of almost 3k. Traffic moves fairly well from Merrion gates towards Sandymount.

on a good day I have gone from Mount Merrion Avenue all the way to East Wall Road at North strand without stopping using the Eastlink so if one was going to IFSC or anywhere around College green, O'Connell Street area then this I think would be quickest.

Never any hassle from buses either as they are not that plentiful on the Rock Road.

monument

Routing behind bus stops -- known as bus stop bypasses -- is the best solution for most people as it removes the bus stop / bicycle conflicts without opting for shared footpaths.

The design of theses have to be carefully done to be clear in terms of a difference between the footpath and cycle path; where pedestrians should cross and lines of sight should be unobstructed. The angle of the cycle path curves, the angle of the kerbs and width of the cycle path also needs to be got right.

ted1

monument wrote: »

Routing behind bus stops -- known as bus stop bypasses -- is the best solution for most people as it removes the bus stop / bicycle conflicts without opting for shared footpaths.

The design of theses have to be carefully done to be clear in terms of a difference between the footpath and cycle path; where pedestrians should cross and lines of sight should be unobstructed. The angle of the cycle path curves, the angle of the kerbs and width of the cycle path also needs to be got right.

they need to use clear glass and not advertising at the ends because of buses drop people off or there are people queuing at the far side you'll hit them like skittles