Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016, Mod Warning in OP, 10/7

~Rebel~

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

It's actually not grey at all, it's totally black and white. There's a comprehensive list of WADA banned substances here https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2016-prohibited-list-en.pdf. If you're a professional athlete it's up to you to make sure anything you take isn't on that list. Simples :cool:

Oh I know the list is black and white, but that's not my point. As I said, I wasn't speaking in relation to this case, but about doping in general, and the moral rights and wrongs of the issues (Morality obviously being a very different thing to what is enforced by law). There was a clear right and wrong in the past when it came to things like steroids. But now that gap is evaporating. I do have some sympathy for the legislators trying to stay on pace in a seemingly impossible race, as they have to be increasingly tough on essentially everything if they're to keep their overall stance intact - while I also imagine they themselves are not entirely sure about some of the decisions their taking.

monkey9

I'd actually forgotten Kolo was banned for this when at Man City.

thecretinhop

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/crowds-30000-turn-out-liverpool-11253444


Just such a beautiful song. Especially today. I have lots of thoughts but for another time.

5starpool

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Subotic, who is out for the rest of season with thrombosis since the start of April





and

Vermaelen? No thanks.

8-10

5starpool wrote: »

Vermaelen? No thanks.

On a free I'd take him but not for £10m. That money would have gotten you a younger, better, less injury prone Belgian CB in Toby Alderweireld this time last year.

Vermaelen is a classy defender when fit, used to love watching him. But too few games in last 2 years. I'll support him if he comes but would think we can do better with that money

Turtyturd

We'll get as much use out of Sakho during his ban as we would out of Vermaelan.

corwill

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A little bit more on Hillsborough, Richard Keys on Kenny Dalglish and his work during and after Hillsborough.

http://richardajkeys.com/richards-blog/entry/sir-kenny-dalglish

I know many wouldn't have much time for Keys but I think the story deserves a wider audience.

The auld tarmaccer has a heart, who knew!

K-9

monkey9 wrote: »

I'd actually forgotten Kolo was banned for this when at Man City.

Yep, I didn't know much about it tbh.

As for Sakho, I don't know, I think the wider sporting public just gets immune to it, if it was another club I really don't think I'd be much different on it. A Leicester player maybe, alarm bells would start going off.

But we are so used to it with Athletics, cycling, weight lifting and then then the recent IAAF scandal, then put Fifa and Uefa on top.

As for Dion Fanning and Ken Early and I'm sure other hacks saying we should be more annoyed, what should we do Ken? March on the FA?

All we can hope is the drug busting agencies get as much funding and help they can. Sky, BT, Nike, McDonald's, 1% of deals or something like that goes to WADA etc.

J Mysterio

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Are you on drugs?

I am

K-9

corwill wrote: »

The auld tarmaccer has a heart, who knew!

Off the ball from last night is worth a listen to, they'd Ray Houghton and Jason McAteer on.
Never knew Jason lost 2 of the trainers of the Sunday League team he played for at Hillsborough, both died or rather, both were killed. He's the chirpy class clown, but I suppose like most of us, uses humour to get around things.

Fromvert

K-9 wrote: »

Yep, I didn't know much about it tbh.

As for Sakho, I don't know, I think the wider sporting public just gets immune to it, if it was another club I really don't think I'd be much different on it. A Leicester player maybe, alarm bells would start going off.

But we are so used to it with Athletics, cycling, weight lifting and then then the recent IAAF scandal, then put Fifa and Uefa on top.

As for Dion Fanning and Ken Early and I'm sure other hacks saying we should be more annoyed, what should we do Ken? March on the FA?

All we can hope is the drug busting agencies get as much funding and help they can. Sky, BT, Nike, McDonald's, 1% of deals or something like that goes to WADA etc.

I think the only chance something like that has of happening is if the sponsors forced it and why would they? Do they want to see the tournaments they sponsor have high level players banned during them? No chance. The FA/FIFA/UEFA etc do not want players being popped all over the place, players are barely tested and they'll like to keep it that way.
The player Unions would probably go tell them to kick rocks if they tried to force players to be tested every month or two anyway.

Sports organisations have little interest in catching anyone (bar the odd one to show that they're testing), NFL, NBA, UEFA, FIFA etc

It's high level sport, do we care that much about everyone being 'clean' that we'd accept watching a drop off in intensity, fitness levels etc.
I honestly don't care about it, it's entertainment for the masses delivered by the best athletes each sport has to offer. Enjoy it.

LuckyLloyd

Sakho is good at football. I'll look forward to welcoming him back into the fold post ban.

corwill

Fromvert wrote: »

It's high level sport, do we care that much about everyone being 'clean' that we'd accept watching a drop off in intensity, fitness levels etc.
I honestly don't care about it, it's entertainment for the masses delivered by the best athletes each sport has to offer. Enjoy it.

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

Fair enough and for some individuals doping or whatever it is Sakho was doing will have a greater impact on their opinion of him/the sport than others. Personally I couldn't give a toss about athletics and cycling because they're some of the most boring sports I've ever seen, not because the sports are rife with PED's. If all the athletes were dropping tabs of acid before they competed there's more of a chance I'd watch it.

For me anyway, what Sakho has done doesn't take away from the entertainment at all. Football is football, regardless of if he was able to train a little harder and push out a few more reps or deadlift a heavier weight. He should be punished according to the rules and as long as he's not at it again then it should be forgotten about. We see cheating in football all the time. Does taking "fat burning" tabs do anything to harm the integrity of the sport more than diving in the box to win a penalty or trying to get an opponent sent off? If anything I'd say it does less to harm the sport than those 2. Just my 2 cents.

LuckyLloyd

corwill wrote: »

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

You're living in a dream world imo. Football just hasn't been exposed. That's the only difference.

8-10

punk_one82 wrote: »

If all the athletes were dropping tabs of acid before they competed there's more of a chance I'd watch it.

Like this? http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=64938

corwill

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're living in a dream world imo. Football just hasn't been exposed. That's the only difference.

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

corwill

corwill wrote: »

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

World peace would be great too but both will never happen!

LuckyLloyd

corwill wrote: »

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

You said 'once the integrity of a sport goes it's entertainment goes'. This is football we're talking about!!!

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. I just think football has shattered it many times in many ways.

corwill

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You said 'once the integrity of a sport goes it's entertainment goes'. This is football we're talking about!!!

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. I just think football has shattered it many times in many ways.

Diving and the likes can be actually seen and caught by officials, and punished in real time. It doesn't happen half enough, but everyone is absolutely clear that it's against the rules. No-one would seriously propose legalising diving, because it would render the whole enterprise a grosteque farce.

If we throw in the towel with doping, the effect would be the same, even worse in many ways. The blowback would be enormous, within a generation doping would be practically compulsory at all levels of the game.

Just because fighting doping is difficult and is a fight that will likely never be fully "won" does not stop it being worthwhile.

corwill

RoboKlopp wrote: »

World peace would be great too but both will never happen!

That doesn't make perpetual war the alternative!

JB81

Looking forward to tonight. Team almost picks itself bar centre midfield:
I would pick:

Mig
Moreno
Lovren
Lucas ( think he will play Toure though )
Clyne
Allen ( Think he will play Lucas here )
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge

good team performance needed and I think we will come away with a 1-1 result and set up for a big night next week!!

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

Diving and the likes can be actually seen and caught by officials, and punished in real time. It doesn't happen half enough, but everyone is absolutely clear that it's against the rules. No-one would seriously propose legalising diving, because it would render the whole enterprise a grosteque farce.

If we throw in the towel with doping, the effect would be the same, even worse in many ways. The blowback would be enormous, within a generation doping would be practically compulsory at all levels of the game.

Just because fighting doping is difficult and is a fight that will likely never be fully "won" does not stop it being worthwhile.

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

Boom_Bap

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

Luckycharms_74

JB81 wrote: »

Looking forward to tonight. Team almost picks itself bar centre midfield:
I would pick:

Mig
Moreno
Lovren
Lucas ( think he will play Toure though )
Clyne
Allen ( Think he will play Lucas here )
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge

good team performance needed and I think we will come away with a 1-1 result and set up for a big night next week!!

Think it will be very similar to your line up but I think Sturridge will be on the bench and bring him on for last 30 when the games is stretched and spaces open up.
I'm sure Klopp will be thinking, I need to get a full 90 from Sturridge in the home leg, therefore resting him this game.


Mig
Clyne Toure Lovren Moreno
Lucas
Allen Milner
Lallana Coutinho
Firmino

corwill

punk_one82 wrote: »

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

A dive of that sort turns one match. Unchecked doping completely undermines the entire sport as an actual contest, quite apart from the health issues. As for severity of the sanctions for doping, that's as much to do with making it a deterrent in the face of the difficulties of detection. An official in the right spot paying attention can catch a diver with his own two eyes. I'd be in favour of far harsher post-match sanctions to try and rein in diving, BTW.

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

What a complete load of cr@p. A single action like diving is nothing like continuous cheating via PED's. The correlation between a cheating dive resulting in a goal may be a lot more obvious than the effect on a game result of a player taking PED's but if Sakho gained 0.5% more speed or enhanced stamina as a result of taking PED's which in turn enabled him to make a goal saving block or several last minute goal saving blocks or tracking runs Vs attacking forwards the advantage gained from taking PED's could be significantly more than what is achieved from a single dive.

Agent Coulson

Looks like we after Mustafi now as well but I think we will be linked to lots of CB's over the next few months.

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

A dive of that sort turns one match. Unchecked doping completely undermines the entire sport as an actual contest, quite apart from the health issues. As for severity of the sanctions for doping, that's as much to do with making it a deterrent in the face of the difficulties of detection. An official in the right spot paying attention can catch a diver with his own two eyes. I'd be in favour of far harsher post-match sanctions to try and rein in diving, BTW.

A dive turns one match yes, but it can be a lot more important than that. What if it's a dive in a final? A playoff? Relegation battle? How much of an advantage has Sakho gained on an individual level? It's probably immeasurable but he is definitely not superhuman as a result, so marginal benefit over a prolonged period.

I also agree more should be done to rein in diving, but I feel something like the Sakho situation seems to get seriously blown out of proportion in comparison to very obvious attempts at cheating we see on a weekly basis. Anyway I respect your opinion on it. Hoping it all gets cleared up soon.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

What a complete load of cr@p. A single action like diving is nothing like continuous cheating via PED's. The correlation between a cheating dive resulting in a goal may be a lot more obvious than the effect on a game result of a player taking PED's but if Sakho gained 0.5% more speed or enhanced stamina as a result of taking PED's which in turn enabled him to make a goal saving block or several last minute goal saving blocks or tracking runs Vs attacking forwards the advantage gained from taking PED's could be significantly more than what is achieved from a single dive.

You call my post a load of crap yet make up a figure about potential speed gains and then make up some scenarios that have pretty much the same outcome as what I said? How many goal saving blocks has Sakho made this season? How many results has he directly influenced?

rob316

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

Very interesting, there's a lad in work that absolutely raves about him every transfer window and cant understand why someone hasn't moved for him.

Boom_Bap

He has a pretty decent international scoring record as well, I think it's close to 1 goal every 2 games.....for a winger.
I've always rated him when I've seen him play, to be fair, that's not too often.

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

You call my post a load of crap yet make up a figure about potential speed gains and then make up some scenarios that have pretty much the same outcome as what I said?

If taking banned substances didn't improve his performance why would he risk taking them? I don't think anyone is going to suggest he hasn't gained an illegal improvement in performance the only question is how much but again it must be enough to have a positive impact on his game otherwise he wouldn't do it. I doubt you'd disagree with this point? Was it 0.1%, 0.5% or 10%? It doesn't really matter, it gives him an unfair advantage every single minute he's on the pitch and in every single tackle, block or interception he makes and he makes a lot. See https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29575 If taking PED's enabled him to make one more block per game, one more interception or one more tackle that would have a hugely positive impact on LFC's ability to defend.

punk_one82 wrote: »

How many goal saving blocks has Sakho made this season? How many results has he directly influenced?

He has played 34 games averaging 5.9 clearances per game, 0.9 blocks per game and 1.6 interceptions per game so unless this was a once off/single event (which he just happend to get caught doing - VERY unlikely) he has had a major impact on the result of 34 games. Try doing that with a dive

Agent Coulson

Sakho was stoned off his face on yokes no wonder he always looked so bloody awkward on the ball.

Francie Barrett

dogbert27 wrote: »

I'm with Rebel on this one. No one will really care in a few weeks time when the focus is on Leicester winning the premier league.

A guy with Hamilton got a one month ban for this. 1 month probably because he's a relative unknown. Toure, 6 months and a fine.

Sahko will get between 6 to 12 months, club will fine him. He'll donate it to a local charity. Come back clean and all will be forgiven.

I am expecting something similar.

Harry Palmr

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

No subtly at all in Ukrainian football is there? That said he'd be a fine buy down the left flank.

As for Sakho, you'd really have to question if he has a future with the likes of Subotic, Vermealen being linked by moderately plausible sources.

MonkeyTennis

Reports coming from Belgium that Origi will be 3-4 weeks

corwill

Harry Palmr wrote: »

No subtly at all in Ukrainian football is there? That said he'd be a fine buy down the left flank.

As for Sakho, you'd really have to question if he has a future with the likes of Subotic, Vermealen being linked by moderately plausible sources.

The only competition Vermaelan will provide is for the physio's attention.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If taking banned substances didn't improve his performance why would he risk taking them? I don't think anyone is going to suggest he hasn't gained an illegal improvement in performance the only question is how much but again it must be enough to have a positive impact on his game otherwise he wouldn't do it. I doubt you'd disagree with this point? Was it 0.1%, 0.5% or 10%? It doesn't really matter, it gives him an unfair advantage every single minute he's on the pitch and in every single tackle, block or interception he makes and he makes a lot. See https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29575 If taking PED's enabled him to make one more block per game, one more interception or one more tackle that would have a hugely positive impact on LFC's ability to defend.



He has played 34 games averaging 5.9 clearances per game, 0.9 blocks per game and 1.6 interceptions per game so unless this was a once off/single event (which he just happend to get caught doing - VERY unlikely) he has had a major impact on the result of 34 games. Try doing that with a dive

I love how you used Sakhos stats to show how much of an impact he has on games. Compare them to Joleon Lescotts stats for the team who sit very bottom of the table. 30 games total, 5.8 clearances, 0.7 blocks, 2.6 interceptions per game. So yeah, the effect of whatever Sakho has been taking seems to be seriously overstated by you and many others.

How much of an impact it has quite clearly does matter. You seem to think that whatever he has taken has been a decisive factor in how he has played over the course of a season. I disagree. All defenders have those impacts on games, so what you've shown with regards to Sakho's stats are very average and are in no way indicative of him being a crucial factor in the result of games with regards to him having banned substances in his body. So what he has taken has had an immeasurable and quite clearly nominal impact on how he has performed. Compare that to a dive that earns a game winning penalty. The game winning penalty was earned from a blatant attempt at cheating in order to sway the result of a game of professional football. A measurable attempt at cheating. Try doing that with baseless stats

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

So what he has taken has had an immeasurable and quite clearly nominal impact on how he has performed.

Of course it has, that's why he has risked his future and professional integrity :rolleyes:

Your comparison with any other footballer's stats is irrelevant BTW. Sakho's performance wouldn't have been at the level it is without PED's otherwise he wouldn't be taking them and if he didn't perform to the level he has been some of his interceptions, last ditch tackles and goals may not have been made. Is it really that hard for you to join the dots?

Buford T. Justice XIX

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sakho is good at football. I'll look forward to welcoming him back into the fold post ban.

He's better at painting though.

I imagine he will have to whole stadium given a good lick of paint before next season and will start on the surrounding area to keep in shape before the ban ends:)

Tbh, I really don't give a toss about doping. I have assumed that a large section of professional sports are at it with years and when one scam comes to light, the dopers are already onto the next drug.

The only difference if authorities desire and willingness to tackle it.

Keep samples from every test for 10 years and if new drugs come to light through new and better testing, take all trophies won off teams with large fines and allow teams to sue those players for those sums. Make it financially unattractive for them to dope and it stops the majority of it.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Of course it has, that's why he has risked his future and professional integrity :rolleyes:

Your comparison with any other footballer's stats is irrelevant BTW. Sakho's performance wouldn't have been at the level it is without PED's otherwise he wouldn't be taking them and if he didn't perform to the level he has been some of his interceptions, last ditch tackles and goals may not have been made. Is it really that hard for you to join the dots?

It's not irrelevant at all. His stats are pretty similar to a defender who has played close to the same amount of games and finds his team getting relegated. You can roll your eyes all you want pal, you don't know what Sakho has been found to have in his system or how much it has affected his performances or our results as a result. It's unquantifiable and quite clearly nominal. If you really want to have a look at stats how about you check the stats for all central defenders in the premiership who have played over 30 games and see how much of a variance there is. Hyperbole doesn't do your argument any justice. Yeah Sakho scored easy headers because he took some pills :rolleyes:

martyos121

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Looks like we after Mustafi now as well but I think we will be linked to lots of CB's over the next few months.

I want to believe that so badly but I just can't. He's on the verge of being a world class centre half, Valencia's best player by miles this season. Him and Lovren or Matip together would be some wall of a defence.

The likes of Barca, Real Madrid and Munich are all after him so I'd say there's a 0% chance of it happening unfortunately.

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

It's unquantifiable and quite clearly nominal.

Which is it unquantifiable or clearly nominal? Is Engligh your first language?

BTW, the stats (interceptions, blocks, tackles etc) of a defender playing in one of the worst teams ever to grace the PL who were over run in virtually every game they played will always be higher than a team who are dominating their opponents. If a team has 0 shots on target and as a result Ming has 0 saves in a game does that make him a worse goalkeeper than a guy who faced 15 shots in a game, made 7 saves (wo must be a deadly keeper right?) but let 8 in?

Sakho wouldn't have taken performance enhancing drugs unless they gave him............wait for it.............an improved performance. Once you grasp that concept you'll find yourself understanding that without that boost in performance (whether it was 1%, 10% or 25%) he couldn't have performed as he did and if he didn't perform as he did more goals would have been scored against us and he may not have had the alertness or physical ability to score those "easy" headers.

If you can't see the logic in that you're just in denial so carry on, don't let me spoil your buzz.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Which is it unquantifiable or clearly nominal? Is Engligh your first language?

BTW, the stats (interceptions, blocks, tackles etc) of a defender playing in one of the worst teams ever to grace the PL who were over run in virtually every game they played will always be higher than a team who are dominating their opponents. If a team has 0 shots on target and as a result Ming has 0 saves in a game does that make him a worse goalkeeper than a guy who faced 15 shots in a game, made 7 saves (wo must be a deadly keeper right?) but let 8 in?

Sakho wouldn't have taken performance enhancing drugs unless they gave him............wait for it.............an improved performance. Once you grasp that concept you'll find yourself understanding that without that boost in performance (whether it was 1%, 10% or 25%) he couldn't have performed as he did and if he didn't perform as he did more goals would have been scored against us and he may not have had the alertness or physical ability to score those "easy" headers.

If you can't see the logic in that you're just in denial so carry on, don't let me spoil your buzz.

Doesn't need to be quantifiable to see that it's not having a major effect on his performances given how his stats don't differ much from most central defenders. Can't you keep up? So, unquantifiable - I'm not putting any made up stats to it. Nominal - it's effects were quite clearly minor. Does it need to be explained further?

You're clutching at straws. For a start, has it been confirmed that he was taking performance enhancing drugs? Clearly not given the fact that UEFA haven't opened any investigation yet. Come back to me when you know what he had in his system and what effects it had on his performance.

I'm absolutely not in denial, just not exaggerating somethings effects to prove a point while turning a blind eye to other blatant cheating in the sport we love

MonkeyTennis

The person after me starts the match thread.

bluefinger

yarmolenko's agent at stadium

https://lockerdome.com/8013736577348929/8098590972191764

MonkeyTennis

you're it.

galwaylad14

Surely it doesn't matter what percentage he improved because of the PED's, the fact is he obviously improved some bit by taking banned substances (otherwise he wouldn't take them) and that makes him a cheat.

Comparing him to other defenders stats is neither here nor there, maybe the other defenders are better players than Sakho but his doping has allowed him compete at a similar level to them?

No one can ever possibly say what bearing his doping had on the Liverpool results over the last while. Maybe it was nothing at all, maybe it was the difference between him making a few vital headers/clearances/interceptions that ultimately made a huge difference to his team?

No one can ever really say but I really hope he gets the book thrown at him. He's a cheat and football has to take a hard line on cheaters. And I'm not saying he's the only one or anything, but he's caught now and has to be punished to send out a message that this won't be tolerated in the game.

I think the real question is was he doing it of his own accord or were Liverpool complicit in this cheating? And if they were then I'm sure Sakho wasn't the only own gaining a "chemical advantage". Interesting times ahead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

galwaylad14 wrote: »

I think the real question is was he doing it of his own accord or were Liverpool complicit in this cheating? And if they were then I'm sure Sakho wasn't the only own gaining a "chemical advantage". Interesting times ahead.

I'm getting the impression some people actually want this to be the case more than expressing any logical viewpoint.