Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016, Mod Warning in OP, 10/7

Cartman78

Never mind stats and random forum contributors, Dirk has spoken

NukaCola

Alex Manninger signing might be a strange one but as a third backup he'll be fine. I would say the majority of teams 3rd choice keeper aren't exactly stellar either tbh. Doubt he'll get a single minute and a bit pointless signing but as someone said you never know what could happen.

MD1990

NukaCola wrote: »

You'd take an opinion over stats any day?

What if the person does not like the player and is judging him unfairly while not backing it up with any data apart from anecdotal evidence and saying things like he doesn't look like he cares or some other unmeasurable metric.

I'm as guilty as anyone in slamming players in LFC. Milner, I absolutely despised him for the first half of the season.....I was called on it and instead of lambasting every mistake i just looked at his overall performance......turns out he wasn't as useless as I thought. Same with a lot of posters here.......

Btw I'm talking in general and not about our newcastle supporting friend that was kind enough to give his opinion.

I thought the same about Milner. But he was excellent in the 2nd half of last season. His mentality is very impressive just never stops & has good quality too.

Knex*

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Seems they really do like to have adjoining rooms

LuckyLloyd

I'm ignoring this thread over the summer but just popped by to say that there will never be a better time to spend bundles and oodles of cash given the new tv deal. If we're not doing that and everyone of our supposed rivals is then we'll be left behind, simple as.

Talisman

5starpool wrote: »

To be honest, I'd take the opinion of someone who has watched someone play over stats any day.

Fans judgement of players can be clouded. I don't think Coutinho or Lallana would have fared any better in the Newcastle team last season - I don't consider either player lazy but they are inconsistent.

What I saw of Newcastle under McClaren reminded me of Liverpool 2014/15. The players that Rodgers couldn't use, were transformed under Klopp and reached two cup finals in a matter of months.

McClaren should have been replaced in January or after the Chelsea game in February to give the club a realistic change of avoiding relegation. Instead Benitez was appointed the second week of March at which point Newcastle had no margin for error. Judging by the subsequent performances and results, the players responded to him.

The stats suggest that Wijnaldum is a good player, whether or not he'll be a success at the club is entirely up to him - he'll need to put the work in to get a place in the team.

cj maxx

MD1990 wrote: »

I thought the same about Milner. But he was excellent in the 2nd half of last season. His mentality is very impressive just never stops & has good quality too.

Think most people did think that also . And alot of players picked up after klopp came in

NukaCola

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm ignoring this thread over the summer but just popped by to say that there will never be a better time to spend bundles and oodles of cash given the new tv deal. If we're not doing that and everyone of our supposed rivals is then we'll be left behind, simple as.

Far too simplistic......lets do what Klopp is doing and get in players he wants. You were happy we got Klopp (i think?), if you think we'll be left behind by not spending big then I have to wonder why were you happy in the first place?

rob316

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm ignoring this thread over the summer but just popped by to say that there will never be a better time to spend bundles and oodles of cash given the new tv deal. If we're not doing that and everyone of our supposed rivals is then we'll be left behind, simple as.

Spending bundles of cash gives no guarantee of success.

Agent Coulson

We out spend most teams over the last two decades and that didn't work.





A new manager and a new approach is now being used and I'm happy to see how that works over the other model.

5starpool

Well there are obviously people whose opinions on certain matters I don't regard at all, but in general if someone (not in the aforementioned category) if aware of a players stats and has seen them play a good bit, I'd place more weight on that than someone who has just seen the stats and applies face value to them. There is always more context, good or bad to a player than can be told from the stats. It doesn't mean they will be proved right or that what they observed before will continue, but it is still important I feel rather than countering these views with "well he did xyz in a crap team, he must be really good".

Talisman

GBX wrote: »

Makes no sense? Future goal keeper coach perhaps. Cant see him playing too many games.

Wasn't there a rule change regarding loan players? I remember hearing something about it not being possible to recall loan players this season.

It makes sense to send players out on loan to get first team experience given the reduced volume of games for the first team squad.

Manninger may never play but in the event of a crisis like last season we will have an experienced player to call upon. He should also be able to help Karius settle into the league.

kevohmsford

I think Wijnaldum will do very well playing for Klopp. He will get goals from midfield. We may still need to bring in a player to replace Allen unless Klopp will play Emre Can, Grujic and Wijnaldum in the middle.

Riesen_Meal

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm ignoring this thread over the summer but just popped by to say that there will never be a better time to spend bundles and oodles of cash given the new tv deal. If we're not doing that and everyone of our supposed rivals is then we'll be left behind, simple as.

If Leicester can do it with fook all cash, anyone can do it with fook all cash - weren't them lads all having the craic and getting pissed most weeks?

Jurgen likes a beer and a smoke, that's what we need, a bunch of chain smoking alcoholic pub pals to win the league....

Pepp1989

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I'm ignoring this thread over the summer but just popped by to say that there will never be a better time to spend bundles and oodles of cash given the new tv deal. If we're not doing that and everyone of our supposed rivals is then we'll be left behind, simple as.

Doing something because everyone else is doing it is a terrible idea.

NukaCola

5starpool wrote: »

Well there are obviously people whose opinions on certain matters I don't regard at all, but in general if someone (not in the aforementioned category) if aware of a players stats and has seen them play a good bit, I'd place more weight on that than someone who has just seen the stats and applies face value to them. There is always more context, good or bad to a player than can be told from the stats. It doesn't mean they will be proved right or that what they observed before will continue, but it is still important I feel rather than countering these views with "well he did xyz in a crap team, he must be really good".

Did I really say "well he did xyz in a crap team, he must be really good"? I gave relevant stats to back up my opinion of a player.

Wijnaldum was labelled a lazy failure based on a poster who I dont know watching him play. If in general your happy with that one sided opinion good for you, I'd need more to be honest.

I never said I'm just relying on stats btw, I have seen him play for Newcastle but admittedly not as much as the poster. When relevant stats are at odds with a fans view then theres enough there for me to question bias. I would never ever take someones opinion as fact without a fuller picture.

Riesen_Meal

BorneTobyWilde

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Moreno created more chances that any other Liverpool player last season there is a stat yet 90% fans (not a stat)I would say want rid of him.

Yea but those chances were for the other teams.

NukaCola

The lads are visiting Alcatraz. Any chance they could leave Moreno in there and throw away the key.

Agent Coulson

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Yea but those chances were for the other teams.

No Mignolet, Can, Firmino, Lovren and Ojo all made more mistakes than Moreno that lead to goals conceded by Liverpool.


http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#defensive-errors#player-stats#english-barclays-premier-league|season-2015/2016#liverpool#all-player-positions#16#39#0#0#90#09/08/2015#15/05/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

NukaCola

Fieldog wrote: »

Who the **** is the true geordie and why should I care what he thinks?

Sorry to be blunt but if Klopp wants him, and he was by far Newcastles most productive player last season with some excellent performances then I'm happy enough.

Alonso77

NukaCola wrote: »

The lads are visiting Alcatraz. Any chance they could leave Moreno in there and throw away the key.

Firmino already has the 1000 yard stare!

5starpool

NukaCola wrote: »

Did I really say "well he did xyz in a crap team, he must be really good"? I gave relevant stats to back up my opinion of a player.

Wijnaldum was labelled a lazy failure based on a poster who I dont know watching him play. If in general your happy with that one sided opinion good for you, I'd need more to be honest.

I never said I'm just relying on stats btw, I have seen him play for Newcastle but admittedly not as much as the poster. When relevant stats are at odds with a fans view then theres enough there for me to question bias. I would never ever take someones opinion as fact without a fuller picture.

a. In a few more words you essentially did, yes.

So Wijnaldum while apparently not caring and being lazy in the majority of games he played, in his first season in England scored 11 goals, 5 assists, created 48 chances, 85% passing average and 71% shooting average while playing all 38 league games, starting 36 and can play LM/CM/AM all in a shambles of a club......

b. I'm not saying I'm accepting his opinion as fact. You are saying he had these stats, in a better team he will hopefully be very good, and that is perfectly valid and I'm not too far away from that position myself. I don't think That_Guy is a one eyed poster who is slating him because he is leaving (I know you didn't say he was), I believe he is giving as objective a view as he can from someone who probably watched most if no all of Newcastle's games last season. It may well be the case that in a better team and with better coaching he will be more motivated and his output will be very important for us, but if someone is cautioning that there were some workrate issues last year, even in a team that had an awful workrate in most games, we should take note.
c. I'm not sure how I even got involved in this discussion. I'm just taking in multiple viewpoints and applying more weight to people who have more information. If others don't want to do that, then fine.

Agent Coulson

So according to squawka.com player ratings Moreno was our second best ranked player last season behind Couthino.


Joe Allen was our 19th ranked player.


But hey what can you tell from stats.

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#english-barclays-premier-league|season-2015/2016#liverpool#all-player-positions#16#39#0#0#90#09/08/2015#15/05/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

SuperTortoise

I use stats as a guide when looking at a player who we might be signing from a team I dont watch very much,
However when it comes to an LFC player, stats come way down the order, we all watch enough games to know if an LFC player is any good without bringing stats into the equation.

Knex*

Agent Coulson wrote: »

So according to squawka.com player ratings Moreno was our second best ranked player last season behind Couthino.


Joe Allen was our 19th ranked player.


But hey what can you tell from stats.

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#english-barclays-premier-league|season-2015/2016#liverpool#all-player-positions#16#39#0#0#90#09/08/2015#15/05/2016#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Anyone know if they have a breakdown with regards to how exactly the score these things? What contributes to a positive attacking or defensive score, are different positions graded differently, etc.

PFF are huge for ratings in American Football, but some of their ranking systems just haven't got to grasps with the more intangible side of the game, or the knock on effects of the player beside you offsetting your assignment, etc. That's a game that has a lot more straight forward actions, and is far less fluid than football.

I find it hard to imagine that there isn't a lot of arbitrary stuff contributing to a grade, or simple things like a full back passing it back to their CB 15 times a game, but not identifying that a midfielder was the better option, etc.

Agent Coulson

Knex. wrote: »

Anyone know if they have a breakdown with regards to how exactly the score these things? What contributes to a positive attacking or defensive score, are different positions graded differently, etc.

PFF are huge for ratings in American Football, but some of their ranking systems just haven't got to grasps with the more intangible side of the game, or the knock on effects of the player beside you offsetting your assignment, etc. That's a game that has a lot more straight forward actions, and is far less fluid than football.

I find it hard to imagine that there isn't a lot of arbitrary stuff contributing to a grade, or simple things like a full back passing it back to their CB 15 times a game, but not identifying that a midfielder was the better option, etc.

The thing with stats you can organise them in anyway that suits someones side of an argument.

I would much rather take the opinion of someone who watched a player 38 times over reading 38 game stats on that player.

NukaCola

5starpool wrote: »

a. In a few more words you essentially did, yes.

What I was trying to say is Wijdalnum IMO had a good season and wasn't the lazy failure he was being made out as.

His assessment from some Newcastle fans puzzle me.

Stats aren't everything, and I can accept that he can be inconsistent and go missing in games and even lazy at times but that review was pretty scathing by That Guy. To have those numbers and score against the teams he did I have trouble accepting that a Newcastle fan can look at him and call him a failure while also saying he was their best player. I know Newcastle were poor but for 14M what more is expected from him? To "look" like he cares? To be more consistent in an unbelievably inconsistent team in his first season? It just seems strange that he's viewed so poorly.

NukaCola

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The thing with stats you can organise them in anyway that suits someone side of an argument.

And you certainly did that with Sturridge to great effect Mr.12 seasons as a pro :pac:

Agent Coulson

NukaCola wrote: »

And you certainly did that with Sturridge to great effect Mr.12 seasons as a pro :pac:

Well at least you were getting the season part right Most people were taking it as years.

Amazing how many football fans don't seem to know a season is broken over two years

Riesen_Meal

NukaCola wrote: »

Who the **** is the true geordie and why should I care what he thinks?

Sorry to be blunt but if Klopp wants him, and he was by far Newcastles most productive player last season with some excellent performances then I'm happy enough.

He is a Geordie fan TV thing on YouTube, like the Redmen - I don't know much of him other than what I've seen against us, the reason I posted it was to post another Geordies opinion in the thread...

Of course if Klopp wants him he knows what he is doing, pretty much what I said a few days ago when we signed Ragnar and others were questioning why....

I don't doubt Klopp for a second personally...

54and56

NukaCola wrote: »

And you certainly did that with Sturridge to great effect Mr.12 seasons as a pro :pac:

He said stats, not makey uppey stuff.

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Well at least you were getting the season part right Most people were taking it as years.

Amazing how many football fans don't seem to know a season is broken over two years

9.5 seasons old boy, not 12

Fieldog

Fieldog wrote: »

.....

I don't doubt Klopp for a second personally...

You couldn't expect all of his signings to impress though, to be fair or realistic.

Riesen_Meal

Augeo wrote: »

You couldn't expect all of his signings to impress though, to be fair or realistic.

Not all will settle and be a success obviously...

Some players will never want to adjust their game though arriving at a new team, sure look at "our" Mario - how many teams and chances has he gotten and he still makes a bags of it...

ricero

Chillwell to sign a new deal at leicster. I reckon it will be that villa lb we will go for then. Young, cheap and has potential

Knex*

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The thing with stats you can organise them in anyway that suits someones side of an argument.

I would much rather take the opinion of someone who watched a player 38 times over reading 38 game stats on that player.

Really depends on the context & detail, tbh. If every stat imaginable was available to me on a database, for any player, I'd rather access to that than some hardcore fan's opinion of the player. Unfortunately, we don't have that, though.

Having something as broad as "attacking score" without any real breakdown with regards to the scoring system just seems totally pointless to me.

Also, would have to say, watching a game on the TV gives you a far narrower view of what is going on than if you had the overhead cameras or were at the game itself. So there's that to take into account as well.

There's a lot of factors in a fast moving, fluid and dynamic game, played over a massive area where the movement of a full back 70 yards away from the immediate action can have a massive impact on the game.

Everyone sees the game differently, even those at the top level, far away from our computer chair analysis. I'm rambling away again, but ultimately, as much as I love stats and analytics myself, they are absolutely only another small insight of the massive overall picture.

murpho999

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Well at least you were getting the season part right Most people were taking it as years.

Amazing how many football fans don't seem to know a season is broken over two years

You don't seem to understand your own point let me clarify it for you

1 2006/07
2 2007/08
3 2008/09
4 2009/10
5 2010/11
6 2011/12
7 2012/13
8 2013/14
9 2014/15
10 2015/16

Amazingly there are two half seasons per calendar year to average out at 1 per year.

Agent Coulson

Knex. wrote: »

Really depends on the context & detail, tbh. If every stat imaginable was available to me on a database, for any player, I'd rather access to that than some hardcore fan's opinion of the player. Unfortunately, we don't have that, though.

Having something as broad as "attacking score" without any real breakdown with regards to the scoring system just seems totally pointless to me.

Also, would have to say, watching a game on the TV gives you a far narrower view of what is going on than if you had the overhead cameras or were at the game itself. So there's that to take into account as well.

There's a lot of factors in a fast moving, fluid and dynamic game, played over a massive area where the movement of a full back 70 yards away from the immediate action can have a massive impact on the game.

Everyone sees the game differently, even those at the top level, far away from our computer chair analysis. I'm rambling away again, but ultimately, as much as I love stats and analytics myself, they are absolutely only another small insight of the massive overall picture.

Stats don't show the over picture at all you are right they along with lots of other factors need to be taken into account.

Of course Moreno may have been our most attacking player last season and created more chances than anyone else but those stats will not show how that affected Sakho who had to cover the left back position when Moreno was that outlet and those stats don't show Shako covering effected Lovren who had to cover more space then since Sakho moved over left a bit to cover etc etc for every other position and player.

Or maybe they will and maybe we should be buying players who have no free thinking and can just follow stats.

MD1990

Amavi would be a good signing. Highly rated from his time in France & before injury he was good at Villa too. Coming back from an ACL injury is a worry though as he would need time to reach his best form again.

Nerdlingr

Defensively is Amavi any good though? Is he not another Moreno type player? Ricardo Rodriguez is still available and just waiting to be bought !!

Agent Coulson

Chilwell is about to sign a new deal with Leicester.

So can we rule him out now or is the new deal being signed so Leicester can getting a bigger price for him.

J Mysterio

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Defensively is Amavi any good though? Is he not another Moreno type player? Ricardo Rodriguez is still available and just waiting to be bought !!

Yeah, I see Amavi as being super similar to Moreno.

Rodriquez would be a top top signing. At Wolfsburg, only 23. Valued at £25M on Transfermarkt.

ricero

Jonas hector would be a no brainer for me.

Reckon klopp will sign someone young to compete with moreno

whatawaster

murpho999 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand your own point let me clarify it for you

1 2006/07
2 2007/08
3 2008/09
4 2009/10
5 2010/11
6 2011/12
7 2012/13
8 2013/14
9 2014/15
10 2015/16

Amazingly there are two half seasons per calendar year to average out at 1 per year.

In 06/07 and 07/08 he was a kid who only got a game here and there. Not really fair to count them.

8 seasons as a first team senior professional

Sappy404

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yeah, I see Amavi as being super similar to Moreno.

Rodriquez would be a top top signing. At Wolfsburg, only 23. Valued at £25M on Transfermarkt.

He'd cost significantly more than that in reality, sadly, and the likes of Real have been after him for years. He would be perfect though.

Strangely we seem to be after an understudy for Moreno rather than a replacement. And if we weren't, we'd probably buy Aaron Cresswell over Rodriguez.

murpho999

whatawaster wrote: »

In 06/07 and 07/08 he was a kid who only got a game here and there. Not really fair to count them.

8 seasons as a first team senior professional

Agree 100% but apparently next month is the start of his 13th professional season.

hefferboi

The Sturridge argument is the very same as this!

SuperTortoise

So we signed Manninger, a 39yo journeyman(at best)

Is Migs getting the hint yet!

murpho999

SuperTortoise wrote: »

So we signed Manninger, a 39yo journeyman(at best)

Is Migs getting the hint yet!

See above: He's 40 not 39.