How does ireland not have free healthcare?

Amfyoyo

That's as may be Poa, but David Cameron isn't paid what Dame Edna is, and most certainly does NOT have €1.2million in expenses on top of that.....I can appreciate Ur comments vis Population, but if U take land mass and compare how we as a County operate 'everything', the sheer SIZE of the Bureaucracy simply can't continue

There was a report proposed last year to see where precisely costs could be cut/money saved BUT, Consultant pay was 'ring fenced'.....We simply cannot afford to keep shoveling the Finance we are into a 'Service' which is producing ever worse results,year on year, it MUST be tackled in totality,otherwise,the 'train' will simply run out of track...traveling at full tilt!!

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The eu and imf don't like public health care or public anything for that matter. We won't have free health care anytime soon if ever

Practically every country in the EU has public healthcare of some sort. We are not under IMF control.

Knowledge of basic facts seems rather lacking on this thread.

L1011

Amfyoyo wrote: »

That's as may be Poa, but David Cameron isn't paid what Dame Edna is, and most certainly does NOT have €1.2million in expenses on top of that....

His salary is almost identical at current Sterling to Euro rates and was higher before Sterling fell due to brexit. His expenses would be far higher due to more international travel.

If you don't actually know stuff, please stop making it up.

enfant terrible

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Insurance certainly does not allow you to skip public queues. You can have certain procedures done privately which anyone can avail of whether they have insurance or not, however it will cost you. Insurance covers the daily cost of staying in a public bed. I was waiting on an organ transplant and I can assure you that my insurance did not allow me to skip any queue. I was declined a medical card too. So again a misconception that a chronic illness results in obtaining a medical card.

The HSE has a not very well advertised scheme available to everyone called 'the treatment abroad scheme" which followed some EU Directive or ruling. Basically, it allows you to avail of an operation or procedure abroad and the HSE pays for the cost.

Is there any real advantage to having insurance so?

L1011

enfant terrible wrote: »

Is there any real advantage to having insurance so?

Scans, primarily. This could be critical in certain cancers.

You could easily afford to pay for these privately if you can afford high-end health insurance though.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

Practically every country in the EU has public healthcare of some sort. We are not under IMF control.

Knowledge of basic facts seems rather lacking on this thread.

i beg to differ. the imf and the world bank have a lot to answer for. between them, they are the main reason why most of the planet is heavily indebted and imposing austerity not just in ireland but in many countries around the world. one of the main reasons for austerity is to force privatisation of public services and assets such as health care systems. it is indeed a scam. i therefore believe major financial institutes such as the imf and the world bank are the true controllers of our country's, amongst others, leading me to believe that our 'democratic' systems are close to being defunct , if not already.

i have been informed by workers in our public healthcare system, that our system is almost completely wrecked. i know somebody that has just recently left our public system mainly due to pay and conditions, and have gone working in the private healthcare system. i know somebody else working in our public system and is slowly developing mental health problems due to the fact. i personally do believe this is the neoliberal plan, i.e. forced privatisation!

this is all very deeply disturbing to watch

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i beg to differ. the imf and the world bank have a lot to answer for. between them, they are the main reason why most of the planet is heavily indebted and imposing austerity not just in ireland but in many countries around the world. one of the main reasons for austerity is to force privatisation of public services and assets such as health care systems. it is indeed a scam. i therefore believe major financial institutes such as the imf and the world bank are the true controllers of our country's, amongst others, leading me to believe that our 'democratic' systems are close to being defunct , if not already.

i have been informed by workers in our public healthcare system, that our system is almost completely wrecked. i know somebody that has just recently left our public system mainly due to pay and conditions, and have gone working in the private healthcare system. i know somebody else working in our public system and is slowly developing mental health problems due to the fact. i personally do believe this is the neoliberal plan, i.e. forced privatisation!

this is all very deeply disturbing to watch

Conspiracy theory forum is that way

"beg to differ" when you're wrong on core facts doens't work. "Austerity" just means actually covering your costs, something we still don't do here. Nothing more.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

Conspiracy theory forum is that way

"beg to differ" when you're wrong on core facts doens't work. "Austerity" just means actually covering your costs, something we still don't do here. Nothing more.

highly recommend the work of economists such as michael hudson, bill black, ellen brown and ha-joon chang for further info. thank you

enfant terrible

L1011 wrote: »

Scans, primarily. This could be critical in certain cancers.

You could easily afford to pay for these privately if you can afford high-end health insurance though.

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

highly recommend the work of economists such as michael hudson, bill black, ellen brown and ha-joon chang for further info. thank you

I don't consider conspiracy theorists and nutbars to be economists.

You are ignoring facts and spouting nonsense. There is a forum for that here - its not this one.

volchitsa

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Half the time the GP will refer you on to a and e anyway, no wonder it's always packed. My GP accepts people with medical cards and it's impossible to get an appointment. You could be waiting for 4 days unless you're really sick and they make a big song and dance about giving you an appointment. The nurse calls and assesses if you're bad enough over the phone. I always ask how am I supposed to know in advance if I'm going to be ill but apparently there are people who can tell the future.

TBF that also happens in the NI NHS, certainly in our doctors' surgery anyway. You practically have to beg for an appointment. (But I'm still a huge supporter of the NHS, for having experienced several other countries. At its best it's incomparable IME.)

L1011

enfant terrible wrote: »

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

First Google hit but the prices seem correct enough

http://www.affidea.ie/price-list/

100-300 depending on the scan. You may need a few, but its unlikely to exceed the cost of a decent insurance premium in a year but it does stop you needing the cash there and then.

Maternity services are another popular use of insurance but since Mt Carmel closed that has even waned a bit. You can't remove maternity cover from your premium, which is *really* useful for a gay male - I've managed to find a policy with terrible maternity cover instead which is the cheapest going for what I want.

freedominacup

poa wrote: »

Ireland has 4.6m people.
The UK has 66m people.
One cannot compare the two.
66m v 4.6m, bigger country with more tax coming in, smaller country with less tax coming in.
We have medical cards and health insurance here, and for 4.6m that is the best solution.
If Ireland had say 10m then an NHS would be viable, but we don't; so it isn't.
London has 6.6m alone, and an NHS wouldn't work in that city alone if it weren't for the remaining 60m population. And that is with only say around 50% of them working and paying tax into the system. One needs around 50% paying taxes into an NHS to make it viable.
In Ireland say 2.3m paid into an NHS it wouldn't be viable for the whole 4.6m. The running costs would be too high.

Oh boy!! Hard to know if this one isn't a complete wind up.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

I don't consider conspiracy theorists and nutbars to be economists.

You are ignoring facts and spouting nonsense. There is a forum for that here - its not this one.

moving on in life. thank you for nothing really. you can take up your grievances with those ive mentioned. actually id also recommend irish economist stephen kinsella as well. hes more than willing to exchange communications on such matters. i guess some of the universities around the world must be employing errr emm 'nutbars' these days!:rolleyes:

screamer

TBH it's the wrong people have free healthcare in ireland. Workers who pay taxes for it should benefit. Think about people who are sick who work and now with the rules that you aren't entitled to any social welfare payment for the first 6 days. So if your employer doesn't pay you you're down money. Now imagine that person can't afford a doctors visit and meds....... and every day they are out of work the government is missing out on taxes. But Danny dolehead can go any day multiple times a day free of charge and pay 2.50 for meds so he can be back in the bookies tomorrow......... the working people should be looked after they are the ones keeping the lights in in this country not the long term net spongers.

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

moving on in life. thank you for nothing really. you can take up your grievances with those ive mentioned. actually id also recommend irish economist stephen kinsella as well. hes more than willing to exchange communications on such matters. i guess some of the universities around the world must be employing errr emm 'nutbars' these days!:rolleyes:

I'm pretty certain he's not going to agree with your rather surreal and twisted outlook - consider anyone actually being paid in such a field wouldn't be able to maintain such insane views.

Ally Dick

enfant terrible wrote: »

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

I had to go for a MRI on my back, and the bill was €100 but I had VHI so didn't have to pay for it. It was a lot cheaper than I would have thought

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

screamer wrote: »

TBH it's the wrong people have free healthcare in ireland. Workers who pay taxes for it should benefit. Think about people who are sick who work and now with the rules that you aren't entitled to any social welfare payment for the first 6 days. So if your employer doesn't pay you you're down money. Now imagine that person can't afford a doctors visit and meds....... and every day they are out of work the government is missing out on taxes. But Danny dolehead can go any day multiple times a day free of charge and pay 2.50 for meds so he can be back in the bookies tomorrow......... the working people should be looked after they are the ones keeping the lights in in this country not the long term net spongers.

This is true. Couple years ago I was after leaving my work to look after a terminally ill parent and I wasn't well at all up and down throughout the year. I wasn't on social welfare, didn't have a medical card, and I was leaving myself so sick because I didn't have the 50 euro to hand the doctor every few weeks, and it was building up and up. My dad was very ill in hospital so couldn't help me and the guy I was sort of seeing at the time was offering to pay but I'd be weird about taking money from people. It ended up me being an inpatient for 2 5 day stays and some random 1/2 night stays. Then you see people who've never worked running to the dr with a sniffle

Taco Chips

Amfyoyo wrote: »

There was a report proposed last year to see where precisely costs could be cut/money saved BUT, Consultant pay was 'ring fenced'.....We simply cannot afford to keep shoveling the Finance we are into a 'Service' which is producing ever worse results,year on year, it MUST be tackled in totality,otherwise,the 'train' will simply run out of track...traveling at full tilt!!

Consultant pay was slashed in the last few years and there was a subsequent recruitment crisis because the same eminently qualified consultants could work in literally any other English speaking country for multiples of what was being offered here. They rowed back a little bit on it but still not enough and there a re plenty of vacant posts because of the short sightedness of these measures. Pay of health care workers actually makes up a very small percentage of the HSE budget. The real savings are in the incredible, jaw dropping levels of waste and inefficiency of systems management.

enfant terrible

L1011 wrote: »

First Google hit but the prices seem correct enough

http://www.affidea.ie/price-list/

100-300 depending on the scan. You may need a few, but its unlikely to exceed the cost of a decent insurance premium in a year but it does stop you needing the cash there and then.

Maternity services are another popular use of insurance but since Mt Carmel closed that has even waned a bit. You can't remove maternity cover from your premium, which is *really* useful for a gay male - I've managed to find a policy with terrible maternity cover instead which is the cheapest going for what I want.

Would you not be better off putting the money you would pay for health insurance each year in a savings account?

Then using that money for scans if the time comes you need them?

L1011

enfant terrible wrote: »

Would you not be better off putting the money you would pay for health insurance each year in a savings account?

Then using that money for scans if the time comes you need them?

Probably. I should look in to it, as after canning UPC TV its now the largest monthly direct debit that isn't my mortgage - and I check frequently to make sure I can't get equivalent cover for less.

Geuze

suicide_circus wrote: »

We don't pay enough tax basically.

It's true that overall taxes are not very high, about middling.

It's also true that many people face very low direct taxes, BUT marginal tax rates are 50% for many people.

However, given the age profile of our population, we are spending too much on health.

Amfyoyo

The amount of money being 'pumped in', coupled with rising waiting times and decreased 'Customer satisfaction' will decree that this will be 'resolved' by the EU, given we seem incapable of sorting it ourselves...

It would, do U all agree,be INFINITELY BETTER to negotiate INTERNALLY reached pay cuts/small Salaries for ALL jobs in the Health Service with performance related bonuses , than have an externally IMPOSED structure applied?

And anyone going on holidays to mainland Europe...price Ur medication here and Ur destination, checking if U actually NEED a prescription to get it abroad...as a example, a medicated Talc in a Chemist in Greece was all of €1.19..compared to €60 for the visit to the doc to get a prescription here...and then €19.30 for the same product....HOW can THAT SIZE of a multiple be justified??


It simply can't.End of discussion!!

Jimbob1977

Last summer, we took a holiday to England

My son developed a chest infection, so we went to the local GP.

He received a thorough examination. When we went to pay the bill, the receptionist said that it was free.

We said that we were tourists and not UK taxpayers.... there must be a charge for foreigners. We were happy to pay.

Same reply.... Don't worry, folks. It's still free. No bother.

What a great service; however the waves of foreign migration must stretch it severely.

Jimbob1977

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Last summer, we took a holiday to England

My son developed a chest infection, so we went to the local GP.

He received a thorough examination. When we went to pay the bill, the receptionist said that it was free.

We said that we were tourists and not UK taxpayers.... there must be a charge for foreigners. We were happy to pay.

Same reply.... Don't worry, folks. It's still free. No bother.

What a great service; however the waves of foreign migration must stretch it severely.

There is an agreement between Ireland and Uk going back decades. There is also an agreement between all EU member states, but that usually requires production of the E11 card.

Amfyoyo

"However, given the age profile of our population, we are spending too much on health".
Geuze is offline

Please excuse the dreadfulness of the quote Geuze, but it's important U credit people with their work...

May I suggest the issue is not JUST spending too much, but there is no ACCOUNTABILITY for what's spent either...or any NOTION of 'VALUE FOR MONEY' either,the prevailing attitude being 'Sure, SOMEONE will pick up the 'tab'...they always have", so it's reasonable to assume they always will

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

Erm...you don't need a law degree to know that making decisions about eligibility for free medical aid is not a crime, if that's what you're getting at.

With almost 2 million medical cards in the country in 2013, some reduction was inevitable and desirable. That's not to say the cuts were appropriate at all. But for huge numbers out there, healthcare is so subsidised as to be effectively free.

The overseas scheme was one of the first cut back on in the crash, was working quite well up to that.

Private insurance isn't much use in most general hospitals, the few private rooms are reserved for things like contagious cases. Resources are at such a premium, private insurance is down the list.

I've personal experience of family members, who've paid insurance all their lives, dying in public wards with everybody listening in. Tbh it's a bit crass mentioning it, everybody is entitled to peace and dignity in death in a modern 1st world health service, private insurance or not.

Private insurance is for jumping the queue for procedures, longer stays in semi-privates and private hospitals, stuff like that.

More chance of seeing the private consultatant.

L1011

K-9 wrote: »

The overseas scheme was one of the first cut back on in the crash, was working quite well up to that.

Erm, no, no idea where you're getting that from.

EHIC holders are still treated as medical card holders.

Irish in the UK are treated as citizens under the Ireland Act 1948 - not EU rules

Amfyoyo

THEE most IMPORTANT thing to bring with U when U're traveling abroad, but ESPECIALLY IN THE EU

is Ur E 111 Card, which U get automatically once U have a PRSI number (or whatever it's called this week!!!) because it ensures U'll get free medical cover, irrespective of any Health Insurance/travel Insurance U may take out....

Travel list....Passport, Tickets, E 111, loot........
Tubbs

Graham

Amfyoyo wrote: »

THEE most IMPORTANT thing to bring with U when U're traveling abroad, but ESPECIALLY IN THE EU

is Ur E 111 Card, which U get automatically once U have a PRSI number (or whatever it's called this week!!!) because it ensures U'll get free medical cover, irrespective of any Health Insurance/travel Insurance U may take out....

Travel list....Passport, Tickets, E 111, loot........
Tubbs

The E111 no longer exists, if I remember correctly it was replaced 12 years ago.

You need to take your ECIC card with you when venturing to European destinations

George Michael

Graham wrote: »

The E111 no longer exists, if I remember correctly it was replaced 12 years ago.

You need to take your ECIC card with you when venturing to European destinations

if you were living close to the northern irish border could you just visit a NI doctor for free then?

K-9

L1011 wrote: »

Erm, no, no idea where you're getting that from.

EHIC holders are still treated as medical card holders.

Irish in the UK are treated as citizens under the Ireland Act 1948 - not EU rules

Sorry, I was thinking of the foreign treatment scheme.

K-9

George Michael wrote: »

if you were living close to the northern irish border could you just visit a NI doctor for free then?

AFAIK you need to work in NI to qualify for a medical card there, or live in N.I.

Graham

George Michael wrote: »

if you were living close to the northern irish border could you just visit a NI doctor for free then?

If you live in the South and work in the South, I doubt you could just register with a GP in the North. You would be eligible for treatment when visiting the North but I've no idea whether there's a specific definition for 'visiting'.

Graham

K-9 wrote: »

AFAIK you need to work in NI to qualify for a medical card there, or live in N.I.

There's a medical card in NI?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

K-9

Graham wrote: »

There's a medical card in NI?

AFAIK you need one to join up with a doctor's surgery. Could be wrong but that's my recollection.

12Phase

One thing is that the ironically named NICE (National Institutute for Healthcare and Excellence) (I don't know why they drop the H either) doesn't approve a lot of the very expensive treatments that are available here.

We aren't making the kind of cold value for money decisions the NHS makes around areas like cancer care where they will not pay for certain high tech medicines, or in circumstances where someone is older etc as they'll see it as an unjustifiable expensive treatment.

We also seem to be getting very poor value for money on drug prices and other day to day expenditure.

The NHS tends to give much better coverage at primary care but I wouldn't actually rate it as all that great for complicated and high tech medicine. It's definitely not as good as the French system for example.

I know I've seen cancer care in both jurisdictions and the drugs and tech resources here and willingness to not worry about the costs was far more prevalent here. The NHS setup had more resources focused on the basics though ; community nursing, general practice etc

We don't really have a "system" though. It's more a collection of sparring vested interests and hospitals.

You'd need to completely reorganise primary care here to reduce pressure. Way too many things in Ireland go to hospital ; follow up blood tests, even ongoing chromotherapy delivery etc could easily happen in a community clinic context.

Also if GPs were in clinics rather than mostly in pokey practices, you'd have some scope to have diagnostic facilities. A group of GPs could EASILY support way more tech and also extra staff.

Basically, our system is screwed up and not organised and viciously resistant to reform.

For example, try reorganising the hospitals here and the knives come out with save our hospital campaigns. They're well meaning but often don't see the big picture at all.

Nobody is prepared to take on the vested interests though. That mess around the national children's hospital is an example of what the ministers and HSE management are up against.

The minister and senior management should have absolutely steamrollered them on that. At least €35m of public funds was wasted and nothing was delivered basically because a bunch of vested interests with focus on their own hospitals were allowed to control the entire process.

steddyeddy

K-9 wrote: »

AFAIK you need one to join up with a doctor's surgery. Could be wrong but that's my recollection.

Well when I moved to the UK the only thing I needed to do was register with the GP. I also made an appointment at the time of registering.

I assumed I'd need a national insurance number (uk PPS number) but I didn't.

andekwarhola

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some don't even want to pay for the water THEY use, so I very much doubt they'd be too willing to pay the extra taxes needed for free healthcare for all. Some are peed off that kids under 6 and OAPs get free doctor visits.

While I completely agree with the assessment of the pay nothing/expect everything culture here, the point is that the HSE is well funded, especially for a country of this size, and should be able to deliver a better service but doesn't. Throwing more money into it isn't the answer.