Snobbery in education.

Chickarooney

I'd bet the majority of people who are splitting hairs over where your degree came from are spending too much time thinking about the shlt that doesn't matter and less time focusing on becoming successful.

Someone close to me began his career with a Fas course. He's now 35 and earning 200,000 a year. He doesn't spend time worrying that he didn't get a degree in the right college and when he's hiring staff he doesn't give a toss about where their education came from as long as they have the qualification and experience required.

steddyeddy

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Of course there is a difference between courses and educational institutes. A degree from Trinity will almost certainly be of a higher standard that a degree in Graphic Design and Lawnmower Maintenance from some obscure IT in a small town in the provinces. That's not snobbery, that's fact.

I have an extremely well regarded MBA. I got onto this programme by having a 1st from Trinity alongside the required work experience. This in turn opened up the doors that allowed me to have the career I now have. I wouldn't have the job (or indeed the view) I now have if I had taken the easy option of arsing around getting a 3rd rate MBA from Smurfit Business School in UCD.

In fairness dude that attitude would count as a major negative but then again you only have a business degree as opposed to my biophysics one

mada999

I wouldnt worry about it.. from an IT point of view, I found, that you really only START learning when you get a job imo...and hopefully when you start off you are surrounded by very bright people who mentor you and show you the ropes...

Some students are better than others, some teachers are better than others, some facilities are better than others... I completed a degree in an IT and loved it (I also did a year in a PLC course - was lazy for my LC but a good introduction to IT for many people even-though most of my class didnt go on and pursue an IT career)... Had a couple of fellow students in the degree getting very good results in exams etc , and in 3rd year they were actually asking what a 'server' was... a month before the end of our NETWORKING degree..

recylingbin

Can we all just agree that no matter whether you went to Harvard or Tralee it*, if it's an arts degree, its still worthless.

* why dont Tralee IT use their acronym?

steddyeddy

I was lectured by a arts student on the importance of uni rankings. I resisted the urge to bring up degree type rankings.

Permabear

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recylingbin

recylingbin wrote: »

Can we all just agree that no matter whether you went to Harvard or Tralee it*, if it's an arts degree, its still worthless

Are you joking?

A family member did 3 years doing marine biology in one of the NUI's. He then differed his 4th year to an IT and said he learned more in that year than he ever did in the 3 in NUI. Take from that what you will.

Eugene Norman

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Of course there is a difference between courses and educational institutes. A degree from Trinity will almost certainly be of a higher standard that a degree in Graphic Design and Lawnmower Maintenance from some obscure IT in a small town in the provinces. That's not snobbery, that's fact.

I have an extremely well regarded MBA. I got onto this programme by having a 1st from Trinity alongside the required work experience. This in turn opened up the doors that allowed me to have the career I now have. I wouldn't have the job (or indeed the view) I now have if I had taken the easy option of arsing around getting a 3rd rate MBA from Smurfit Business School in UCD.

I notice that you don't mention what the original degree was or where the "well regarded" MBA came from. Only trinity had the snob value.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you joking?

Actually on average a STEM degree from the worst rated American college earns more than a non STEM degree from the top American colleges. Make of that what you will.

Degree top trumps!

I despise the looking down on 'inferior' degree subjects almost as much as I despise school snobbery.

And no, I don't have an arts degree.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Degree top trumps!

I despise the looking down on 'inferior' degree subjects almost as much as I despise school snobbery.

And no, I don't have an arts degree.

In fairness just like the post you thanked (Pbear's post) said there's no snobbery involved just fact.

Baggy Trousers

Deleted User wrote: »

There's always been a rivalry between GMIT and NUIG. The whole thing is a load of toss.

A friend of mine is a partner in a large accountancy firm. He did a BComm in UCG many moons ago. He said he would much rather hire IT grads than NUI grads. He said that IT grads generally did more lecture hours and studied more subjects in depth than NUI grads who seemed to have a very empty timetable and a shallow understanding of less subjects. He also felt IT grads were hungrier and had a better work ethic.

Anonymou

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yeah I've heard that the workload in US Universities is much larger than those in European Universities.

It was an English lad who went to Sheffield university, which is a fairly good University, that told me. He spent a year in the US and said it was much more difficult.

I've nearly completed a year studying abroad in the US and while there is more work to do, it is much easier to score highly. Most people I've spoken to seem to think the same, although engineering does seem to be the exception.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness just like the post you thanked (Pbear's post) said there's no snobbery involved just fact.

Arts degrees aren't worthless. Saying so is very insulting to people who study hard for them. I wasn't interested in one myself but that doesn't mean that they're not valuable in a different way to my own degrees.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Arts degrees aren't worthless. Saying so is very insulting to people who study hard for them. I wasn't interested in one myself but that doesn't mean that they're not valuable in a different way to my own degrees.

Yes I actually agree. I also think it's equally rude to talk about which college is better and which degree is more prized. Like the post Pbear made.

But then again when in Rome...

Eugene Norman

Candie wrote: »

Arts degrees aren't worthless. Saying so is very insulting to people who study hard for them. I wasn't interested in one myself but that doesn't mean that they're not valuable in a different way to my own degrees.

Yet you thanked permabear when he said that certain colleges produced worthless (or less worthy) graduates in the US?

The thing about undergraduate science and engineering and maths courses (STEM in general) is that it's hard to dumb them down.

Post graduate is a bit different as it depends on the facilities.

steddyeddy

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yet you thanked permabear when he said that certain colleges produced worthless (or less worthy) graduates in the US?

The thing about undergraduate science and engineering and maths courses (STEM in general) is that it's hard to dumb them down.

Post graduate is a bit different as it depends on the facilities.

Indeed. It's hypocrisy I don't like.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yet you thanked permabear when he said that certain colleges produced worthless (or less worthy) graduates in the US?

The thing about undergraduate science and engineering and maths courses (STEM in general) is that it's hard to dumb them down.

Post graduate is a bit different as it depends on the facilities.

All degree courses within the same subject are not equal. Some schools are better than others.

Degrees are different subjects that all have value in their respective areas and I don't think disrespecting someones education is a particularly dignified or generous thing to do.

It's like apples and oranges. If you don't like apples, fair enough but it doesn't make oranges intrinsically better.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Actually on average a STEM degree from the worst rated American college earns more than a non STEM degree from the top American colleges. Make of that what you will.

Do your statistics take into account only undergraduate degrees? I don't have any stats to offer you but to say a Arts degree is worthless is nonsense. I know plenty of successful people who did Arts degrees and I know plenty of people who did science related courses and who got nowhere. I did an Arts degree (Economics and Politics) and I work as an Analyst in Finance. It doesn't really matter what your degree is in unless you want to be doctor, architect, etc., most people are science orientated or non-science orientated and what matters is what you put it to your degree and how you sell it in the marketplace.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed. It's hypocrisy I don't like.

That's quite the accusation.

Charles Babbage

People with higher points go to better institutions, who can do more with them because they are better. This doesn't mean that there are not well designed courses elsewhere or that good people do not attend them, but it is silly to pretend that GMIT is Oxford.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

In fairness our uni's all rank poorly on the global ladder. I'd an embarrassing experience once, I started boasting to the wrong people, the next thing league tables were being produced. I was left red faced.

The average position of Irish universities is about the highest in the world. What do you expect it to be?

Eugene Norman

So here's the low down on stem vs non stem in the US. From the Economist.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/03/daily-chart-2

Money quote.

Engineering and computer-science students earn most, achieving an impressive 20-year annualised return of 12% (the S&P 500 managed just 7.8%). Engineers were also least dependent on institutional prestige: graduates from less-selective schools experienced only a slight decrease in average returns

(By returns they mean treating the cost of the degree as an investment)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yet you thanked permabear when he said that certain colleges produced worthless (or less worthy) graduates in the US?

The thing about undergraduate science and engineering and maths courses (STEM in general) is that it's hard to dumb them down.

Post graduate is a bit different as it depends on the facilities.

I don't see how recognising that some colleges have greater prestige than others is equal to looking down on someones choice of degree subject to the point of calling it worthless.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do your statistics take into account only undergraduate degrees? I don't have any stats to offer you but to say a Arts degree is worthless is nonsense. I know plenty of successful people who did Arts degrees and I know plenty of people who did science related courses and who got nowhere. I did an Arts degree (Economics and Politics) and I work as an Analyst in Finance. It doesn't really matter what your degree is in unless you want to be doctor, architect, etc., most people are science orientated or non-science orientated and what matters is what you put it to your degree and how you sell it in the marketplace.

Economics isn't strictly arts. Not quite science either. But in the link from the economist they include it as stem I think.

mada999

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

but is that because they are the best for the job or is it just because of the University they studied at ? I'd say mostly the latter from what I have heard

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

That's quite the accusation.

Not really. Everyone does it. Saying that I think it should be pointed out that Pbear's posts are on the same lines as those seeking to denigrate the arts as a subject with schools being his target of denigration. I don't think it's fair to praise the denigration of schools and denounce the denigration of subjects. They're two sides of the same coin.

Eugene Norman

Candie wrote: »

I don't see how recognising that some colleges have greater prestige than others is equal to looking down on someones choice of degree subject to the point of calling it worthless.

I didn't say worthless. I quoted someone who said they weren't and said in fact STEM subjects get better returns.

The prestige of a university surely must be related to the difficulty of its undergraduate programs. Otherwise it's just fashion. Therefore there isn't much difference in saying university A has better degrees than university B because it's more intellectually rigorous and saying physics is more prestigious than gender studies because it is more intellectually rigorous.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Not really. Everyone does it. Saying that I think it should be pointed out that Pbear's posts are on the same lines as those seeking to denigrate the arts as a subject with schools being the target of denigration. I don't think it's fair to praise the denigration of schools and denounce the denigration of subjects. They're two sides of the same coin.

Did he denigrate schools? Or did he just acknowledge that some schools are better financed, have superior faculty as a result, teach a more difficult or in-depth curriculum, and consequently have a higher calibre of graduate?

Not the same thing as calling someones education worthless, and I resent being called a hypocrite for seeing the difference.

One eyed Jack

Reading threads like these, one might be forgiven for thinking that STEM was the only career choice open to them no matter what they may want to do with their lives. There are an infinite number of opportunities for education and career development paths that people can choose today.

Young people are literally spoiled for choice (I was only reading today about a girl who had gone to Romania to study dentistry! Why Romania? Beats the hell out of me!), but the point is that they can, and there's no need for the e-penis measuring "Uni is better than IT" nonsense.

They serve different purposes. They're different institutions, and even in just Ireland alone, there's a serious amount of variation on offer for anyone who wants it (was watching on tv earlier a girl being interviewed about the Leaving and she plans on going to Carlow IT to study ag. science!).

It's not educational snobbery is the problem, it's snobbery in general is the problem, and snobbery and chips on shoulders stuff is rooted in a persons own insecurity in themselves.

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Nothing very rigorous about hedge fund management. That said id prefer if people in charge of lots of money involving lots of calculations could solve a few elementary equations.

Eugene Norman

Candie wrote: »

Did he denigrate schools? Or did he just acknowledge that some schools are better financed, have superior faculty as a result, teach a more difficult or in-depth curriculum, and consequently have a higher calibre of graduate?

Not the same thing as calling someones education worthless, and I resent being called a hypocrite for seeing the difference.

Only one person called arts degrees worthless and you aren't arguing with him.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Did he denigrate schools? Or did he just acknowledge that some schools are better financed, have superior faculty as a result, teach a more difficult or in-depth curriculum, and consequently have a higher calibre of graduate?

Not the same thing as calling someones education worthless, and I resent being called a hypocrite for seeing the difference.

Well personally I don't think arts degrees are worthless but I don't think they're quite the difficulty of STEM subjects.

Yes I equate ranking schools with ranking degrees.

Eugene Norman

Candie wrote: »

Did he denigrate schools? Or did he just acknowledge that some schools are better financed, have superior faculty as a result, teach a more difficult or in-depth curriculum, and consequently have a higher calibre of graduate?.

Yet you and he fail to acknowledge that some courses are more difficult and in depth and demand a higher calibre of undergraduate. Something that's clear on any campus.

Some courses just can't be non-rigorous or bridges would collapse and planes fall from the sky.

pragmatic1

Anonymou wrote: »

I've nearly completed a year studying abroad in the US and while there is more work to do, it is much easier to score highly. Most people I've spoken to seem to think the same, although engineering does seem to be the exception.

I'm just basing it from what a colleague told me. I think he has a M.Sc in Chemistry or something.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well personally I don't think arts degrees are worthless but I don't think they're quite the difficulty of STEM subjects.

Yes I equate ranking schools with ranking degrees.

Unless you studied one you really wouldn't know though, would you? If we are just throwing out baseless views here, I'm going to go ahead and say I always found science easy in school and that I bet it's just as easy in college.

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As a libertarian wouldn't you do that?

A hedge fund manager with performance near the industry average earned $2.4 million in 2014, per the Glocap compensation report for 2015.

Yes, you would.

However, philosophy of arguably more rigorous

That will need rewording.

So what's your primary criterion, earning potential or "rigor"?

Rigor. Sport stars and big brother contestants can become rich.

That said in a technological society even with massive global competition the fact that STEM subjects do so well regardless of the actual uni attended is telling. If it were easy more people would do it and wages would fall.

And don't try pretend that you don't see prestige as related to remuneration. If Harvard law produced crap law degrees then it's prestige and the remuneration of the graduates and the quality of the undergraduates would all decline simultaneously.

Roadtoad

Anyone here interested in trusting their kid's health to an 'I.T.' Doctor with 290 leaving cert points (if such a qualification existed) ?

pragmatic1

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless you studied one you really wouldn't know though, would you? If we are just throwing out baseless views here, I'm going to go ahead and say I always found science easy in school and that I bet it's just as easy in college.

I found science easy in school too, that's why I did it. It wasn't too bad at college either until my final year, which was a nightmare.

Eugene Norman

Roadtoad wrote: »

Anyone here interested in trusting their kid's health to an 'I.T.' Doctor with 290 leaving cert points (if such a qualification existed) ?

Presumably if a medical degree existed in an IT it would be as difficult as anywhere else to get into since these kind of degrees need accreditation.

Some it course have high entry points.

steddyeddy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unless you studied one you really wouldn't know though, would you? If we are just throwing out baseless views here, I'm going to go ahead and say I always found science easy in school and that I bet it's just as easy in college.

I AM GOD

pragmatic1

Roadtoad wrote: »

Anyone here interested in trusting their kid's health to an 'I.T.' Doctor with 290 leaving cert points (if such a qualification existed) ?

Lots of people trained at ITs are responsible for developing pharmaceuticals and ensuring that they're manufactured to a high standard of quality, safety and efficacy. Theses pharmaceuticals might then be prescribed by a doctor in the event that your child becomes ill.

steddyeddy

Roadtoad wrote: »

Anyone here interested in trusting their kid's health to an 'I.T.' Doctor with 290 leaving cert points (if such a qualification existed) ?

Beaten too it but all IT courses need accreditation.

I have no idea what the squabbling in this thread is on about

Must be my inferior education

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

I have no idea what the squabbling in this thread is on about

Must be my inferior education

Are you an arts grad from an IT (in Ireland)?

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yet you and he fail to acknowledge that some courses are more difficult and in depth and demand a higher calibre of undergraduate. Something that's clear on any campus.

Some courses just can't be non-rigorous or bridges would collapse and planes fall from the sky.

Courses are different in different areas. I wouldn't have a clue how challenging a degree in Literature is and I wouldn't presume that the person studying it is of a lesser calibre than I am. They just are interested in studying different things and I don't compare apples and oranges. Especially if I've never tasted one of them.

I work in a university, I know how different courses are perceived.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But in that light what's wrong with people saying that science degrees are harder and produce a higher calibre of graduate?