New EU roaming rates?

BlinkingLights

The smaller networks really need to team up to provide pan EU deals on roaming.
There are lots of Eir / Meteor type companies around Europe that aren't affiliated to any big network with pan European presence.

Even 3 only has very limited coverage : Ireland, UK, a bit of Scandinavia and Italy.

Nobody is in every market, even Vodafone has enormous gaps like France.

I think you'll have to see consolidation either with MVNOs operating across the entire continent or, linking and mergers of infrastructural telcos to give them access to seamless coverage.

I'd say with the end of the ability to profit gouge on EU roaming you'll start to see more US style coast to coast telcos.

The UK networks may well end up totally outside any EU regulations soon but whether they just fall into line due to market forces or just like the rates remains to be seen. If we end up with insane roaming rates in the UK for Irish visitors it's going to be very annoying.

beardybrewer

Am I right in assuming that any prepay top-up plan won't apply outside Ireland?

Bob24

Prepay is still fairly unclear. Three clearly is not willing to play balls, so it will depend on how ComReg and the EU plan to enforce the rules.

But the EC document posted earlier on this thread does specify:

60. Other types of tariffs offered to pre-paid customers, such as tariffs that include a bundle of retail mobile services, should not be considered as pre-paid tariffs for the purposes of the CIR.

So they do seem to say that a pre-pay bundle which is charged as a once-off package before you start using it should be considered in the same way as a post-pay monthly plan.

Quackster

beardybrewer wrote: »

Am I right in assuming that any prepay top-up plan won't apply outside Ireland?

No, EC document explicitly states that prepay plans and add-ons are to be treated in exactly the same manner as postpay.

On-net bundles (like inclusive same-network minutes) do not have to apply when roaming but off-net bundles (like unlimited any-network texts) do.

Roughly two gigs of roaming data to included for every ten euro cost of the plan or add-on.

beardybrewer

Thanks for the answers although I'm not too clear on what Three will actually do. My 20 EUR top-up says I get all you can eat data, but I'd be surprised if this is honoured. From what I understand from their roaming rates is about 246 EUR per gig! Unlike Meteor, they have no add-on for roaming data.

Data Roaming charge

Accessing internet on your mobile abroad.

Standard mobile internet is available for a cost of 24.60c per MB on the following networks:

Xfera (Yoigo)
Orange (France Telecom)
Movistar (Telefonica)
We will only publish confirmation of data roaming in specific destinations (by updating our data roaming price list) when we have reached agreement with partners in such destinations. However, it is possible that you may receive data services in destinations not featured in our list of data roaming, where we are trialling data services. In this instance you are liable to pay data roaming charges at a maximum of €7.12 per MB, depending on the destination.

I'd guess that even where the law should apply that T&Cs legally let them out of it.

T&Cs wrote:

This Promotion does not apply when you are roaming outside the Republic of Ireland (ROI) or for international calls or texts and only applies to Short Message Service (SMS) texts. Multimedia Message Service (MMS) messages are expressly excluded from the scope of this Promotion. SMS to landlines must be to normal landline numbers capable of receiving SMS messages, SMS to premium rate or non-standard numbers do not apply.

Bob24

If the regulation is strictly enforced, Three would have to provided you with roughly 4 gb of free data roaming per month. It will depend on how flexible comreg and the EC will be with "creative" interpretations of the rules.

eduzzino5

If prepay will be included, does it mean I could use my lycamobile 4.99/5gb plan in Europe? That would be awesome!

Bob24

eduzzino5 wrote: »

If prepay will be included, does it mean I could use my lycamobile 4.99/5gb plan in Europe? That would be awesome!

Some of it but not the whole bundle if lycamobile doesn't want to (see restrictions around the data roaming account being limited to the price charged to th customer).

CiniO

Now I wonder another thing.

If operators are meant to provide "same cost as at home while roaming" what about international calls while roaming?

At the moment while in Ireland, my provider gives me 100 minutes free call to Irish mobiles and landlines. But international calls (within EU and few other countries) cost me 15c per minute and are not included in allowance.

Currently, when roaming within EU, when I make a phone call within EU (doesn't matter to which country) they use minutes from my allowance of 100 minutes and put surcharge of 6.15c per minute.

So f.e. when I go to France, and make 10 minute phonecall there, it will use this 10 minutes from my 100 minutes allowance + will cost me 61.5 cents. What's important here though, it makes absolutely no difference where was this call to. So it could be a call to France, or Ireland or Greece, or Spain - cost would still be the same.

Now with new changes coming from June, what would be the scenario?

If I go to France, and make 10 minute phone call, surely that will use this 10 minutes out of my 100 minutes allowance without costing me this 61.5c surcharge anymore.
But if call is to non-Irish number (f.e. France, Spain, Greece, etc) will my operator actually use 10 minutes from my allowance without charge, or just charge me €1.50 (15c per min) for such phone call, same as it would cost me at home in Ireland when calling French or Spanish or Greek number.

Any ideas?

Quackster

CiniO wrote: »

Now I wonder another thing.

If operators are meant to provide "same cost as at home while roaming" what about international calls while roaming?

At the moment while in Ireland, my provider gives me 100 minutes free call to Irish mobiles and landlines. But international calls (within EU and few other countries) cost me 15c per minute and are not included in allowance.

Currently, when roaming within EU, when I make a phone call within EU (doesn't matter to which country) they use minutes from my allowance of 100 minutes and put surcharge of 6.15c per minute.

So f.e. when I go to France, and make 10 minute phonecall there, it will use this 10 minutes from my 100 minutes allowance + will cost me 61.5 cents. What's important here though, it makes absolutely no difference where was this call to. So it could be a call to France, or Ireland or Greece, or Spain - cost would still be the same.

Now with new changes coming from June, what would be the scenario?

If I go to France, and make 10 minute phone call, surely that will use this 10 minutes out of my 100 minutes allowance without costing me this 61.5c surcharge anymore.
But if call is to non-Irish number (f.e. France, Spain, Greece, etc) will my operator actually use 10 minutes from my allowance without charge, or just charge me €1.50 (15c per min) for such phone call, same as it would cost me at home in Ireland when calling French or Spanish or Greek number.

Any ideas?

This will remain the same (except the surcharge will disappear). When roaming in another EEA country, calls/texts within that country or to any other EEA country are to be treated the same as calls/texts back to Ireland - you will be charged the domestic off-net price. So if you have domestic off-net bundles, these calls/texts will be deducted from those bundles.

Calls/texts to any country outside the EEA while roaming in another EEA country are outside the scope of the directive and therefore network operators can charge what they like for these.

MBSnr

^^^
This is a pretty good FAQ on it - esp #11 #19 #20
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/frequently-asked-questions-roam-home

CiniO

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
This is a pretty good FAQ on it - esp #11 #19 #20
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/frequently-asked-questions-roam-home

Thanks.
That's an excellent howto, which generally answers all the questions I could possibly think of.



However I'm still not 100% sure about this one:

17. I often go abroad/I plan to stay a long time abroad. How do I know if I still get roam like at home?

The general rule is that as long as you spend more time at home than abroad or you use your mobile phone more at home than abroad you can roam at domestic prices when travelling anywhere in the EU. This is considered a “fair use” of roaming services. In order to determine if this is the case, your operator may check your roaming time and consumption over the last four consecutive months or longer.

If, during this time window, you have been more abroad in the EU than at home AND you have consumed mobile services more abroad in the EU than at home, your mobile operator can contact you and inform you that you may be subject to small charges if you continue to stay abroad. If, within two weeks from the moment you receive a warning, you re-establish prevalent home presence or consumption, no charge will apply. Otherwise, your operator may start applying the small charges (see also question 21) to your roaming consumption from the day of the alert onwards. Therefore, as long as your operator has not contacted you while abroad, you can roam like at home without any worries.

From that it would seem that operator can check the usage in the last 4 months, and disable roam like at home if abused (f.e. phone used entirely abroad).

Now - I have a plan from Poland, which gives me unlimited minutes, unlimited texts, 5GB data, and 120 minutes for international calls (when in Poland) or in roaming (when abroad). Plan costs €4.80+VAT per month.

Currently I'm using it mostly in Ireland purely for those 120 roaming minutes, and obviously in Poland when I go there few times a year.

Looks like from June, I will be able to use all free minutes + texts + about 1.25GB data (according to new EU rules limitations) when in Ireland.

Obviously operator will disable this sooner or later after realising I'm abusing the "roam like at home" by using phone abroad entirely.
But I wonder if they'll do it straight away after new regulations come in force, or will they be allowed to disable my free roaming only after 4 months?

MBSnr

CiniO wrote: »

Obviously operator will disable this sooner or later after realising I'm abusing the "roam like at home" by using phone abroad entirely.
But I wonder if they'll do it straight away after new regulations come in force, or will they be allowed to disable my free roaming only after 4 months?

I'm surprised the operator in Poland hasn't already turned off your ability to roam TBH! Maybe their T&Cs are more accommodating in that...

I've a Three UK SIM and I turned it on in Ireland twice (over 30 days apart) without being in the UK home network in between and they blocked my use of it outside the UK for 12 months.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

CiniO

MBSnr wrote: »

I'm surprised the operator in Poland hasn't already turned off your ability to roam TBH! Maybe their T&Cs are more accommodating in that...

Well, as far as I'm aware, currently there isn't any EU wide waiver for fair usage policy on roaming rates, so I don't thing they could.
There's also nothing in their terms and conditions about limit of foreign use, so they would have no grounds for disabling it.

In fact, I actually pay bills for unlimied minutes, texts and 5gb in Poland which I don't use for majority of time.
All I use pretty regularly is 120 roaming minutes which are also included.

I belive after new regulations come in force, I will still be able to use this 120 roaming minutes included, but other roaming advantages required by EU legislation, like free unlimited calls, texts, and over 1gb data, will be disabled.
I'm only wondering if they'll do it straight away, or will have to wait 4 months.
If it's 4 months, it shouldn't be too bad as i would come in October, and my contract expires around November afair.

I've a Three UK SIM and I turned it on in Ireland twice (over 30 days apart) without being in the UK home network in between and they blocked my use of it outside the UK for 12 months.

They must have such roaming condition so in their T&C.

eduzzino5

Bob24 wrote: »

Some of it but not the whole bundle if lycamobile doesn't want to (see restrictions around the data roaming account being limited to the price charged to th customer).

Do you know what's the minimum that lyca can give me abroad?

Bob24

eduzzino5 wrote: »

Do you know what's the minimum that lyca can give me abroad?

Detailed (and complicated!) rules on the PDF here: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/berec-guidelines-retail-roaming

If what you have is 5 euros data bundle (and these five euros clearly correspond to a data package on your prepaid offer), what I understand is that they should give you twice what your bundle price would get them at the data roaming wholesale regulated costs.

Given that your bundle is slightly below 4 euros (before tax) and the regulated wholesale price will be slightly below 8 euros per GB; if I understand the rules correctly they would have to let you use at least 1GB of your data package while roaming before they can charge you any extra.

MBSnr

^^^

The maths is a mad alright as they have to apply this to so many different scenarios. The wholesale data price is €7.70. They use half that to specify the threshold - €3.85 - to see if you get 100% of your data or a percentage.
Of course this is based on you plan without VAT...

So if that figure of plan divided by data is above €3.85 (like mine) on a €12 (ex VAT) plan / 2Gb data, then I can use all my data in the EU.

If that figure is below €3.85 - say a €30 plan (ex VAT) / 30 Gb data = 1 - then you can only use a % of that bundle. Basically (€30/€3.85) = 7.8Gb

So as Bob24 rightly says, for you €5/5Gb data plan you should get 5/3.85 = 1.3Gb to use.

Bob24

MBSnr wrote: »

So as Bob24 rightly says, for you €5/5Gb data plan you should get 5/3.85 = 1.3Gb to use.

If I get it right (at this stage we are all guessing and I could be wrong) this is slightly incorrect. I think the 5 euro figure used in you calculation includes VAT (it is a bundle price as charged to the end customer) and the 3.85 euros figure doesn't (it is based on a wholesale price charge between companies whic hI assumed does not include VAT). If I am correct here (meaning the bundle price is around 4 euros pre-VAT), the actual data amount would be 4/3.85 = 1.04 GB.

But I am getting technical for the sake of making sure we have the same understanding and overall whichever calculation is correct 250MB won't make a huge difference to the customer ;-)

MBSnr

Bob24 wrote: »

If I get it right (at this stage we are all guessing and I could be wrong) this is slightly incorrect. I think the 5 euro figure used in you calculation includes VAT (it is a bundle price as charged to the end customer) and the 3.85 euros figure doesn't (it is based on a wholesale price charge between companies whic hI assumed does not include VAT). If I am correct here (meaning the bundle price is around 4 euros pre-VAT), the actual data amount would be 4/3.85 = 1.04 GB.

But I am getting technical for the sake of making sure we have the same understanding and overall whichever calculation is correct 250MB won't make a huge difference to the customer ;-)

Yeap - there was me saying it's all based on Ex Vat pricing and then promptly forgetting to do it...

The whole thing will be very confusing for everyone and people will get caught out and charged extra. All due to the fact that the EU and the media are stating that all roaming charges are to end which isn't quite the case for data...

The Irish media did this back last Apr, saying that roaming charges will reduce, where in fact for many on Tesco Mobile PAYG and Bill Pay (plus others no doubt) found their costs to roam actually increased.... :eek:

Arbie

Vodafone UK have announced Roam Free, no roaming charges in 40 countries (mainly EU) for billpay customers: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39576402

snaps

But the wholesale data price is balls. Every country has a different cost of living. I don't even pay 7.70e a month for my total plan here in Poland and I'm currently getting 35gb a month, along with unlimited sms and 120mins calls.

Surely the cost of data varies in every country due to cost of living, wages, currency etc?

MBSnr

snaps wrote: »

Surely the cost of data varies in every country due to cost of living, wages, currency etc?

Exactly - but that's why they had to set a level. If you roam with that phone in another EU country, like Ireland, where the cost of providing data is probably higher, then one operator will lose out.

They needed a set wholesale value across the EU that they can measure against. Therefore you can only use a % of your allocated data bundle, if your plan provides data for cheaper than that wholesale level.

snaps

It seems that this new roaming agreement will suit western european countries that have higher mobile tarrifs, but us living in the east with low tarrifs it may turn out more expensive.

My current rates here in Poland for use at home is much cheaper than the wholesale rates for the Eu roaming.

on average its (PAYG):
2.35e a G/B
2c a sms
5c/minute calls

Obviously out of bundle prices.

But now there's so much competition here prices have come right down especially for data.

Out of bundle I can buy data at 1zl/GB thats .23c/GB!

And I must add data coverage in Poland by the main mobile companies (T mobile and Orange) are extremely good. Its very rare for me to be out of H+ coverage, with most of the time LTE.

Bob24

snaps wrote: »

It seems that this new roaming agreement will suit western european countries that have higher mobile tarrifs, but us living in the east with low tarrifs it may turn out more expensive.

It depends.

Operators in higher cost countries will be forced to let roaming users connect to their network at a rate which mich not be worh their while that much. Since roaming is a fairly large part of their profits and they will lose that, they might have to increase the price of their local packages as a compensation.

On the other hand since the lower cost country have cheaper operational costs, wholesale roaming caps won't affect them as much and will still let them make decent profit.

So clearly from the point of view of mobile operators the regulations are at least as big a problem in Western Europe than in Eastern Europe, and probabl a larger one.
From a customer's perspective, it really is difficult ult to tell.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

ID mobile have their roaming allowances from June in the media. Not sure if it had been posted already.

news article link

snaps

Galilea Low Lava wrote: »

ID mobile have their roaming allowances from June in the media. Not sure if it had been posted already.

news article link

I read in that article that operators can give 5% of the subscribers allowance.

Pretty poor. Seems the customer looses out yet again from stupid EU ruling.

MBSnr

snaps wrote: »

I read in that article that operators can give 5% of the subscribers allowance.

Pretty poor. Seems the customer looses out yet again from stupid EU ruling.

Not really. ID are giving 3 times the wholesale cap instead of the legal 2 times.

If you have 1Gb or 3 GB you could use it all in one month roaming (100%), 5.6Gb of 7 Gb (80%) and 6.3Gb of 30Gb (20%).

At least ID aren't giving just 5%...

https://www.idmobile.ie/customer-notifications#C3

Bob24

MBSnr wrote: »

snaps wrote: »

I read in that article that operators can give 5% of the subscribers allowance.

Pretty poor. Seems the customer looses out yet again from stupid EU ruling.

Not really. ID are giving 3 times the wholesale cap instead of the legal 2 times.

If you have 1Gb or 3 GB you could use it all in one month roaming (100%), 5.6Gb of 7 Gb (80%) and 6.3Gb of 30Gb (20%).

At least ID aren't giving just 5%...

https://www.idmobile.ie/customer-notifications#C3

I think the comment was referring to the last sentence about Three planning to offer 2GB worth of roaming on a 60gb package.

But the Indo is a bit misleading there as my understanding is they are referring to what is in theory an unlimited prepaid package with 60gb FUP and Three is trying to work around the legal minimum amount but it is unfair to say "stupid EU ruling" because as a matter of fact there is an inquiry going on on the matter and no ruling has been given.

TheDriver

Wonder when we will hear from Tesco,meteor, Vodafone etc as to how they are implementing things, only short few weeksleft