Still trying to figure it all out.

ThebitterLemon · 02-11-2017 11:11pm

Super stuff, great consistent improvement, sub 3 definitely doable in the next cycle or two.

If I was to give you any advise it would be to ensure that you recover properly.

TbL

hot buttered scones · 02-11-2017 11:17pm

Singer wrote:

Gutsy race and a savage time. Well deserved after all the training, though I worry that you put yourself a bit too much stress

Yerrah I'm always fretting about something! :-) I love it really, even if I do take it a bit seriously at times - it's not as if I can just rock up and run a marathon on a whim ;-) (joking). I've a few weeks now to have a bit of fun. I was even thinking about giving a parkrun a lash this weekend - but I'll probably have a lie in!!

hot buttered scones · 02-11-2017 11:30pm

ThebitterLemon wrote:

Super stuff, great consistent improvement, sub 3 definitely doable in the next cycle or two.

If I was to give you any advise it would be to ensure that you recover properly.

TbL

Cheers. The plan is just to follow P and D's recovery plan for the next few weeks and have a crack of a 5k in December.

As for sub 3 - well first off, I'm hoping to pick a flat race, hopefully Frankfurt next year. The next question come from your comment "another cycle or two". I've now done 3 marathon cycles in a row. So do I build on that momentum by going again in the Spring for 3:05? Or do I switch to shorter distances for the first half of the year - I'm currently thinking of training for a half in the spring and maybe some 5k/10k stuff after that before launching into marathon training, while keeping up the long runs to at least 16 miles. I'd like to see what I can by training specifically for the half rather than running one in the middle.of marathon training.

mbarr · 02-11-2017 11:33pm

Brilliant! great report and fantastic race.

ThebitterLemon · 03-11-2017 12:02am

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Cheers. The plan is just to follow P and D's recovery plan for the next few weeks and have a crack of a 5k in December.

As for sub 3 - well first off, I'm hoping to pick a flat race, hopefully Frankfurt next year. The next question come from your comment "another cycle or two". I've now done 3 marathon cycles in a row. So do I build on that momentum by going again in the Spring for 3:05? Or do I switch to shorter distances for the first half of the year - I'm currently thinking of training for a half in the spring and maybe some 5k/10k stuff after that before launching into marathon training, while keeping up the long runs to at least 16 miles. I'd like to see what I can by training specifically for the half rather than running one in the middle.of marathon training.

I ran sub 3.15, 3.10 and then a 3.05 (over 3 cycles) before completely bombing out with many sub 3 attempts.

I'm trying to improve my shorter distance PB's before trying for sub 3 again.

If I were you I'd have a good crack at a half and that should set you up nicely for a solid sub 3.

TbL

jake1970 · 03-11-2017 9:20am

Well done M great running(pity about the stitch). Congrats on the impressive but well deserved PB.

denis b · 03-11-2017 9:21am

Well done M and sorry not to have caught up with you in McGrattans. It seems inconceivable that you wont be knocking lumps of that super PB for some time to come. You certainly raced the race that your training pointed to again this year. Absolutely inspiring. Congratulations.

Unthought Known · 03-11-2017 1:23pm

Great race report HBS and a brilliant result!

Murph_D · 03-11-2017 2:27pm

Congrats Mark, some gutsy run you put in there. Great job to hit targets while still taking putstoo, walk break, stitch slowdowns etc. Brilliant going, and a great report too.

diego_b · 04-11-2017 1:20am

The second half sounds like it would have head in a daze, seriously well done on the run and your target achieved.

adrian522 · 04-11-2017 10:22pm

Great run M, wonderful result and well deserved. Delighted you weren't sidetracked by an ill timed illness,

Swashbuckler · 04-11-2017 10:27pm

I think you need to change the title of the thread.

hot buttered scones · 04-11-2017 10:38pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I think you need to change the title of the thread.

Can you do that? I was thinking of starting a new log with a different title, but to be honest I don't any of use will ever figure it all out, will we?

Swashbuckler · 04-11-2017 10:40pm

hot buttered scones wrote:

Can you do that? I was thinking of starting a new log with a different title, but to be honest I don't any of use will ever figure it all out, will we?

Maybe something like "Figured a good chunk of it out".

.....not sure if you can change it.

hot buttered scones · 05-11-2017 9:55pm

Monday 30/10-Thursday 02/11

No running. Flew out to Edinburgh with the family the night of DCM and spent a couple of days walking around the city, eating and a few pints too! I'm pretty sure that counts as active recovery.

Friday 03/11

4@9:06

Usual pre work half asleep plod. Right post-tib giving me grief for the last mile. A bit creaky all over

Saturday 04/11

Afternoon trot round out the Straight Road/Lee fields. 6.3@8:52
Right post tib held up until mile 5 this time. Felt a bit looser overall. I wasn't focused on the watch - just enjoying the run - so the pace crept up, but so did the HR, so I'll have to watch that for the next couple of weeks. Passed 2,000 miles for the year on this run. 6 weeks earlier than last year. If I hadn't been sick 2 weeks ago, I think the last mile of DCM would have been mile 2,000.

Sunday 05/11

In between night shifts. 5@8:50. HR creep again. Cold night, left my hard man pants at home - so long sleeve, jacket, hat, gloves.....and tights.

I thought twice about doing this, but I felt ok - no signs of fatigue - so I went ahead with it. Post tib ok, but calf felt a bit knotty after. Will rest tomorrow.

15.4 for the week.
2007.58 for the year so far.

Jan: 162.53
Feb: 173.55
March: 234.37
April: 228.34
May: 222.83
June: 119.94
July: 191.16
Aug: 229.21
Sep: 235.25
Oct: 194.98

JohnDozer · 05-11-2017 10:19pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Can you do that? I was thinking of starting a new log with a different title, but to be honest I don't any of use will ever figure it all out, will we?

I’m pretty sure you change it if you PM one of the mods with the new title. May be wrong!

hot buttered scones · 10-11-2017 6:28pm

A quiet week so far:

Monday 6/11|Rest|scheduled
Tuesday 7/11|Rest|Tired after nights, didn't bother
Wednesday 8/11|5.2@8:46|Local loop
Thursday 9/11|6.2@8:43|Local loop
Friday 10/11|5:8:21| AM pre work, a bit fast, a bit sniffly

TLDR: A bit tired, undecided on plans for next year, DCM was good.

So I haven't taken time off from running, but don't plan on doing anything hard for a couple of weeks yet. I should think about taking two full weeks off after my next marathon. It occured to me this week that very often I feel more fatigued during the 2nd week post marathon than the first - probably from not recovering enough. I had a very busy week post marathon though - a trip away, straight back to work with an extra night shift and poor sleep so there is that, I suppose

Anyway - looking forward. I'm still in two minds about the Berlin Half, but the Great Railway 25k is usually on around the same time so if I don't do the half I'll target the 25k - it's the same kind of training anyway.

I registered for Frankfurt, so that's the Autumn marathon taken care off. This will be a do or die sub 3 attempt

Newmarket 5k might be off the cards due to a possible clash with a family event. I think the Togher 5k is on the 31st this year, but I'm working for that so I might not get to race off the next few weeks training (working a lot of weekends)

As for training between now and starting for the half - I've no idea. AMK mentioned something in his log about doing Phase II of the JD 10k plan to build speed which sounded good - but looking at the plan I realised that I've forgotten most of my college maths. I then got the notion of just starting the JD half marathon plan (18 weeks, 3 phases), but it's not laid out for specific mileage and I haven't the patience yet to work it out. I might do a spreadsheet or something. I was also looking at a generic McMillan 5k plan just for something to do for December.

So the general plan is:

Some sort of 5k/10k training for a few weeks - maybe a race and if I can't get to it then a parkrun. Dunno. Might do the Raheny 5 actually, seeing as I'm not in for Dungarvan.
Half marathon training: Either ditch the above and do 18 week JD or stick with the original plan of 12 weeks P+L.
Post half: I'll have a few weeks until marathon training. So what to do - I wouldn't mind doing a few shorter local races and following some sort of repeating plan which has speedwork, but also allows me to build volume. Would look at targetting the John Buckley 5k in Late May/early June for a PB attempt. I'd also like a flat, fast 10k in this time period as well.
Marathon: P+D again. I might try it this time without racing a half mara, and have a go at my 10 mile PB instead (like the plan says!!).

My only worry about the Pfitz plans is the fear of going stale (probably from reading the sub 3 thread), but they've served me well so far so I'll probably stick with it. Or not.

I definitely need a goal though, something to motivate me in the short term - it's November, dark and dreary and a touch of delayed post marathon blues means I'm not very excited about running this week. I've enjoyed all my runs once I got out though, so that's good.

DCM post mortem - none really. I left a minute or so out there, but that was due to the stitch. I'm very happy that I was able to push through the bad patch and get going again, and I didn't loose the head - that represents great progress for me. I don't think I've reached my limit yet - there's more to come - just how much is the question.

Itziger · 11-11-2017 10:15am

HBS, sounds like a solid enough plan, mate. I'll be honest, the idea of travelling and spending hard-earned dosh on a Half marathon.... leaves me a little on the cold side. Berlin, like, jeez if it was a 50$ return flight to Britain or something. I dunno; personally seems like a lot of hassle for a Half. Frankfurt, eh. Only 2 and a half hours up the road from me and I do need to pay that city back in terms of sub 3 efforts! We'll see.

I'd take things easy for a bit now. If there's a low key race and you're feeling good, do it. But don't go mad searching for stuff. Let it come to you. Don't start thinking about end of October 2018 yet. That way madness lies as Lady Macbeth more or less said to her hubbie.

Btw, am I reading that right. You're thinking of doing an 18 week Half training plan? Christ, that sounds like Elite level of commitment to a Half (or Krusty, but sure he's near enough Elite for an ould fella).

Would a cross country season be a possibility for the next couple of months? Something different, keep the mind fresh, or do you have to be a club runner? If that doesn't work, you might look for a few Trail races or something. I find they can be good prep for Spring/Summer road stuff.

If Santa registers me for Frankfurt '18 I'll keep ya posted.

hot buttered scones · 11-11-2017 12:09pm

Itziger wrote: »

HBS, sounds like a solid enough plan, mate. I'll be honest, the idea of travelling and spending hard-earned dosh on a Half marathon.... leaves me a little on the cold side. Berlin, like, jeez if it was a 50$ return flight to Britain or something. I dunno; personally seems like a lot of hassle for a Half. Frankfurt, eh. Only 2 and a half hours up the road from me and I do need to pay that city back in terms of sub 3 efforts! We'll see.

I'd take things easy for a bit now. If there's a low key race and you're feeling good, do it. But don't go mad searching for stuff. Let it come to you. Don't start thinking about end of October 2018 yet. That way madness lies as Lady Macbeth more or less said to her hubbie.

Btw, am I reading that right. You're thinking of doing an 18 week Half training plan? Christ, that sounds like Elite level of commitment to a Half (or Krusty, but sure he's near enough Elite for an ould fella).

Would a cross country season be a possibility for the next couple of months? Something different, keep the mind fresh, or do you have to be a club runner? If that doesn't work, you might look for a few Trail races or something. I find they can be good prep for Spring/Summer road stuff.

If Santa registers me for Frankfurt '18 I'll keep ya posted.

Yeah, I know, I drive myself mad at times with this crap!! There's always a few small races on around these parts (4 milers, 5k, 6k) around this time of year so I might have a crack at one of them if I wake up and feel like it. There's a BHAA 5k turkey trot where you can't use a Garmin, there's no clock at the finish and you have to predict your time when you register - the "winner" is however gets closest to their predicted time. I did it a couple of years ago when it was a 4 miler and twas good for a laugh. Cross Country is clubs only, and I've been saying for years I should do something about that.

The Berlin thing - yerrah, I just fancied a bit of a jolly is all. There may have been a bit of the "fail to prepare, prepare to fail" going on - as in I'm targetting a marathon in Germany, I've never raced in Germany so I should probably do a race there to see how they do things. But mostly I suggested it at home and there was no objections, so I picked up the ball and ran with it!! It's a PITA to get to from Cork though - expensive flights from Dublin, I'd have to stay over 3 nights etc. I really like the Great Railway 25k (Centre park Road to Carrigaline via the old Railway line and Shanbally) which is around the same time, to that will do either.

As for the 18 week plan - as me mam would say, I've high notions, like the goats in Kerry.

Murph_D · 11-11-2017 9:47pm

Doesn't Cork BHAA have a cross-country ever or two? No club membership required (assuming similar setup to Dublin).

Frankfurt sounds like a good call for you. Fast and flat and German, what more could you want? Watch those niggles now and take it easy for a while - your back to back Charleville and Dublin outings have earned you a break.

Younganne · 11-11-2017 10:46pm

Relax and have a few no pressure runs and let the body & mind recover fully after a great Dublin marathon... just my opinion(might follow my own advice someday!!!:eek:)

hot buttered scones · 11-11-2017 11:59pm

Murph_D wrote:

Doesn't Cork BHAA have a cross-country ever or two? No club membership required (assuming similar setup to Dublin).

Nah, there's only one in January. I'm deffo doing the Raheny 5 though - can tie it in with a visit to the in laws.

Murph_D wrote:

Frankfurt sounds like a good call for you. Fast and flat and German, what more could you want? Watch those niggles now and take it easy for a while - your back to back Charleville and Dublin outings have earned you a break.

I'm still uncertain about the Berlin half. It'll cost me about â‚¬500 to run a half. A quick search on Irish races lead me to the Wexford half at the end of April. Might be a better option.

Younganne wrote:

Relax and have a few no pressure runs and let the body & mind recover fully after a great Dublin marathon... just my opinion(might follow my own advice someday!!! )

Yeah, I know - I do me own head in. I just need to settle on a plan and I'll relax then. I should follow my own advice too!

I definitely want to race more next year though, but I reckon I'll just jump into races when it suits.

hot buttered scones · 13-11-2017 11:04pm

Saturday 11/11

Rest as planned

Sunday 12/11

8 general aerobic@8:15

A bit fast again. I've been doing a lot of these runs lately without looking at the watch - long sleeves pulled won over it. This has resulted in me not paying attention to the effort levels - so HR was up in the 160s for the second half of this which is way too high. Although my optical HR doesn't really work in the cold or when I wear long sleeves. My strap is fubarred, so I have a new one on order. Although I drank almost a bottle of wine the night before, so that's probably why it was harder than expected. Also featured a return of the stitch I got in DCM - exactly the same place under the ribs on the RHS, but this time I felt the muscles on the back on my ribcage tighten too. I was ok when running, but when I stopped I was a coughing, spluttering mess - asthma like symptoms (had it as a kid and a history of smoking doesn't help).

24.8 miles for the week.

Monday 13/11

1.6@8:50, 4.5@8:44.

Pressed save instead of resume on my Garmin after a brief stop which is why there are two runs. Happy enough with this - effort levels more in line with where they should be.

So I've decided to just start following a plan from next week on, leading up to the Raheny 5 just so I have a bit of structure. I'll try not to be too strict though. I finally settled on the P+L plan for the indecisive, otherwise known as the 10 week Multiple Race Distances plan (45 -57 mpw). Seems to have a bit of everything, and some nice session, so at least it will keep things ticking over.

My mind went back to something Itziger posted earlier in the thread about having an 18 week half marathon plan. Well the main thing is a sub 3 marathon, and everything else is to build towards that next October, so I guess what I'm doing is a 12 month marathon training plan. A bit much maybe? It makes sense to me:

Recover from marathon - train for speed/LT (winter) - LT specific HM/25k training (spring)- recover - more speed/short races (5k) and base building (early summer) - full marathon training (late summer/autumn)- PB beers. Rinse and repeat.

hot buttered scones · 16-11-2017 6:27pm

Meh. Pretty much sums up how this week is going. Was pretty tired Tuesday after nights, and the only available window to run was late in the evening - so tired, cold and dark meant no running.
Wednesday did 6.2@8:28, with a good few climbs, including Leitrim Street, Wellington Road, Middle Glanmire Road - just over 1.5 miles. HR was in the Marathon-LT zone for a good bit of this, although that wasn't the intention setting out. I felt ok afterwards, but the whole thing just felt a bit pointless.
Thursday was 5@8:41 around the Glen. Nice day for it, but it was running for the sake of it.
I fancy a medium long run tomorrow - working days the weekend and I don't want to do a stupid o'clock session. In saying that, there's no urgency to get a longish one done this week. If the weather's like todays I just think a couple of hours easy running would be nice.

hot buttered scones · 17-11-2017 11:27pm

hot buttered scones wrote:

Thursday 17/11

Felt like sh1te warmed up. The beginnings of a head cold again, or it might by just the central heating/work aircon causing allergy issues. 3.1@9:21 - but the effort felt harder than the day before.

History repeats itself. The quoted post is from last year - I just thought I'd check how I got on last year compared to this year. Turns out I'm right on target. I'm also making the same mistakes as last year - pace too fast, HR too high and just generally feeling tired. It's times like this I'd benefit from having a coach of some sort rather than being a lone ranger. Feeling seriously lazy at the moment. Felt rubbish all day today and decided to listen to the body for a change so did nada except plonk myself on the couch.
Just having a moan - the rest of em here are just sick of listening to me! I have to be careful here that I don't dig myself into a hole so I'll take things on a day by day basis. I'm ambitious which can be a great driver, but can also lead to me doing silly things in training at times. Moods not great either, but I don't know whether that's just from fatigue or something else.

Kellygirl · 18-11-2017 12:05am

hot buttered scones wrote: »

History repeats itself. The quoted post is from last year - I just thought I'd check how I got on last year compared to this year. Turns out I'm right on target. I'm also making the same mistakes as last year - pace too fast, HR too high and just generally feeling tired. It's times like this I'd benefit from having a coach of some sort rather than being a lone ranger. Feeling seriously lazy at the moment. Felt rubbish all day today and decided to listen to the body for a change so did nada except plonk myself on the couch.
Just having a moan - the rest of em here are just sick of listening to me! I have to be careful here that I don't dig myself into a hole so I'll take things on a day by day basis. I'm ambitious which can be a great driver, but can also lead to me doing silly things in training at times. Moods not great either, but I don't know whether that's just from fatigue or something else.

Fair play for listening to your body today anyway. What’s the plan for the next week? Maybe you do need a rest.

skyblue46 · 18-11-2017 12:12am

hot buttered scones wrote: »

History repeats itself. The quoted post is from last year - I just thought I'd check how I got on last year compared to this year. Turns out I'm right on target. I'm also making the same mistakes as last year - pace too fast, HR too high and just generally feeling tired. It's times like this I'd benefit from having a coach of some sort rather than being a lone ranger. Feeling seriously lazy at the moment. Felt rubbish all day today and decided to listen to the body for a change so did nada except plonk myself on the couch.
Just having a moan - the rest of em here are just sick of listening to me! I have to be careful here that I don't dig myself into a hole so I'll take things on a day by day basis. I'm ambitious which can be a great driver, but can also lead to me doing silly things in training at times. Moods not great either, but I don't know whether that's just from fatigue or something else.

I think it's time you looked at yourself in the same way you looked at us novices this year. Then give yourself some advice. You gave us great and invaluable tips and I'm sure if you could step back from yourself you could see the wood for the trees. Chin up and keep it going.

outforarun · 18-11-2017 2:55am

Hiya hbs. I'm also looking at 18 weeks (phases II, III and IV) of JDs HM plan. Target race would be Cork Half Marathon. Is that the race you had in mind. I'll probably have a second shot at running a 1:24:XX. P&L didn't get me there last year so targeting the same goal time of a JD plan would be a good way of comparing. I hear you about getting stale on P&D, if JD works out for me then I might stick with him for DCM18.

hot buttered scones · 18-11-2017 11:13am

outforarun wrote: »

Hiya hbs. I'm also looking at 18 weeks (phases II, III and IV) of JDs HM plan. Target race would be Cork Half Marathon. Is that the race you had in mind. I'll probably have a second shot at running a 1:24:XX. P&L didn't get me there last year so targeting the same goal time of a JD plan would be a good way of comparing. I hear you about getting stale on P&D, if JD works out for me then I might stick with him for DCM18.

I was looking at something in the Spring - maybe Berlin, and if I can't get there then either a 25k in Cork April or there's one in Wexford at the end of April. I've gone off Cork after two bad races two years in a row (the full this year and the half last year), plus it's a tough course for a half marathon.
Currently I've decided to stick with P+L for now, but I'm going to do a few weeks of the Multiple Distances programme and if I like it I'll have a bash off the half marathon plan then. J+D just seemed very complicated to me - but I might have another look at it. I think I can go sub 1:25, if I pick the right race.

All of this will be to get me ready for a sub 3 attempt in Frankfurt in October. But right now I have some lingering fatigue - but I think I might have a sinus infection brewing, which wouldn't be strange for me at this time of year - so I'm unsure of where I'm at really. I'm going to try an LT interval session next week just to gauge fitness.

hot buttered scones · 18-11-2017 11:20am

Kellygirl wrote: »

Fair play for listening to your body today anyway. What’s the plan for the next week? Maybe you do need a rest.

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think it's time you looked at yourself in the same way you looked at us novices this year. Then give yourself some advice. You gave us great and invaluable tips and I'm sure if you could step back from yourself you could see the wood for the trees. Chin up and keep it going.

Cheers lads - if only we all followed our own advice!!! I'm just going to take it easier on my recovery runs and I'm going to try a session next week just to see how I get on. That being said, I'll play it by ear and if I don't feel up to doing a session I won't do it.

Still trying to figure it all out.

Comments