Maradona...

...will there ever be another like him?

When he was playing, I knew he was just a genius. We all did. Possibly the greatest ever, certainly the greatest in my lifetime up to then. And we thought when he's gone, others would take up his mantle and go on to dominate the game.

But we're now 20 years on from his fall, 30 years from Mexico '86...and no player has. Sure, some have been outstanding, Zidane, Messi etc. But for me, no one has eclipsed him. And I'm now starting to think, was that it? Have we seen pretty much the most naturally talented leader and we now have to watch others that pale by comparison?

monkey9

Messi.

Liam O

Messi has surpassed him by all measures bar internationally.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...will there ever be another like him?

When he was playing, I knew he was just a genius. We all did. Possibly the greatest ever, certainly the greatest in my lifetime up to then. And we thought when he's gone, others would take up his mantle and go on to dominate the game.

But we're now 20 years on from his fall, 30 years from Mexico '86...and no player has. Sure, some have been outstanding, Zidane, Messi etc. But for me, no one has eclipsed him. And I'm now starting to think, was that it? Have we seen pretty much the most naturally talented leader and we now have to watch others that pale by comparison?

😠I have no words.

The_Kew_Tour

Messi for me too, but that's not to take away from his own greatness

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

Messi has surpassed him by all measures bar internationally.

The most important measure?

Even if technically brilliant, not sure Messi has shown the same character at all, he just doesn't seem to be a leader of men like Maradona was, he certainly has not shown the ability to drag a team to a World Cup.

Hank Scorpio

The term "Leader of men" makes me cringe every time I hear it.

Kankan14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The most important measure?

Even if technically brilliant, not sure Messi has shown the same character at all, he just doesn't seem to be a leader of men like Maradona was, he certainly has not shown the ability to drag a team to a World Cup.

If thats how you judge them then you have to zidane has equalled or bettered him. Won everything at club level and brought a french national side which included stefan guivarch as centre forward to win a world cup.

Edit: I am not saying zizou was better just an example to make a point.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The most important measure?

Even if technically brilliant, not sure Messi has shown the same character at all, he just doesn't seem to be a leader of men like Maradona was, he certainly has not shown the ability to drag a team to a World Cup.

Yes, let's decide the quality of players based on vague phrases like "leader of men." He's not won a World Cup but these days club football is more important than international and Champions League is every bit as important as World Cup and also probably a better indicator of player talent and overall team standing.

Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

The term "Leader of men" makes me cringe every time I hear it.

It's kinda relevant in team sports...particularly mens! I get the thing about Messi, in Kerry we have Colm Cooper who is possibly one of the most technically gifted players of all time. But Darragh O'Se was the player who inspired his team into that winning mentality. Maradona had both, the ability to play and the ability to lead.

Which leads me back to my question, will we ever see that again.

Hercule Poirot

As a character off the pitch, only Zlatan comes close, if only he had done better with Sweden he could've have been a match for Diego

As a player Messi is undoubtedly quality, off the pitch he is dull as fcuk and doesn't compare to Maradona

Liam O

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The most important measure?

Even if technically brilliant, not sure Messi has shown the same character at all, he just doesn't seem to be a leader of men like Maradona was, he certainly has not shown the ability to drag a team to a World Cup.

How is internationally nearly as good a measure of a player's ability than their league/CL performances? Is Robbie Keane therefore among the best strikers in Europe the last 15 years?

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yes, let's decide the quality of players based on vague phrases like "leader of men." He's not won a World Cup but these days club football is more important than international and Champions League is every bit as important as World Cup and also probably a better indicator of player talent and overall team standing.

You don't do irony?

Let's decide the issue on vague phrases like "club football is more important * than international"...

* my emphasis

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

The most important measure?

According to who? By that measure Greek players of 2004 have achieved more than Messi, which is a bit silly.

Judge a man over his entire career, not just on tournaments that come around every 4 years. Players like George Best or Ryan Giggs never got to do much at international level, down to the quality of the rest of their teams.

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

How is internationally nearly as good a measure of a player's ability than their league/CL performances? Is Robbie Keane therefore among the best strikers in Europe the last 15 years?

Well then we'll all agree that Jardel was the best so.

monkey9

Deleted User wrote: »

The most important measure?

Even if technically brilliant, not sure Messi has shown the same character at all, he just doesn't seem to be a leader of men like Maradona was, he certainly has not shown the ability to drag a team to a World Cup.

Messi's dragged Barca to Champions League titles at times, probably a higher quality of tournament. The whole World Cup thing is overplayed at times. Messi has already proved himself.

Skylinehead

Skylinehead wrote: »

According to who? By that measure Greek players of 2004 have achieved more than Messi, which is a bit silly...

Oh I agree.

Hence I never suggested that international football is the be all and end all. Merely that it has to be factored in.

As for the Messi comparison, it doesn't just end at international football. See Maradona's influence at Napoli.

Raven Runner

Deleted User wrote: »

...will there ever be another like him?

Thierry Henry & Jamie Vardy

theoneeyedman

monkey9 wrote: »

Messi's dragged Barca to Champions League titles at times, probably a higher quality of tournament. The whole World Cup thing is overplayed at times. Messi has already proved himself.

Messi will go down as an all time great but didn't imo singlehandedly drag barca to success on his own like Diego did with both Napoli & Argentina. Seria A was full of practically all the world's top players at the time, he won the 86 WC and almost did it again in 90 (their reputation cost them with referees).
And he did all this when he was as high as a kite, imagine if he was sober

daithijjj

What Maradonna did for his country and Napoli, Messi will never touch. Messi would never have had a career in Maradonna's day. He would have had the sh1te kicked out of him like Maradonna had. All that said, its simple.

They are the best of their own generation, leave it there.

Donnielighto

Ronaldo and messi are both better players.

Shanotheslayer

daithijjj wrote: »

What Maradonna did for his country and Napoli, Messi will never touch. Messi would never have had a career in Maradonna's day. He would have had the sh1te kicked out of him like Maradonna had.

That makes literally no sense.

Andersonisgod

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't do irony?

Let's decide the issue on vague phrases like "club football is more important * than international"...

* my emphasis

"leader of men" is not a measurement of quality.

Emphasis and importance of club football over international football is something which can be explored in far greater depth where you could take on board the opinions of players and coaches and fans, you could look at it from a financial standpoint, I suppose you could even look at how and where tactical trends tend to develop in football (be it club or international) and from there gain a greater perspective on what is currently more influential in the world game.

daithijjj

daithijjj wrote: »

What Maradonna did for his country and Napoli, Messi will never touch. Messi would never have had a career in Maradonna's day. He would have had the sh1te kicked out of him like Maradonna had. All that said, its simple.

They are the best of their own generation, leave it there.

There is something to be said about their comparative strength alright. I think the famous video of Maradona v Belgium shows just what he faced...and Belgium weren't exactly famous for their vile tackling. Messi never had to face the likes of Andoni Goikoetxea out to break his legs. Which is possibly why I feel we might not see the like of Maradona again, because the game has changed so much that ability to do what he did against opponents who wanted to end his career, it's just not a consideration these days.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

"leader of men" is not a measurement of quality.

Emphasis and importance of club football over international football is something which can be explored in far greater depth where you could take on board the opinions of players and coaches and fans, you could look at it from a financial standpoint, I suppose you could even look at how and where tactical trends tend to develop in football (be it club or international) and from there gain a greater perspective on what is currently more influential in the world game.

Lots of words..no sense.

The World Cup. That's where it's at. For all the guff about exploring things in greater depth, financial trends and greater perspectives. You can throw another 100 words at it, but you're only applying a band aid to try and cover the one glaring gap between Messi and Maradona.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Lots of words..no sense.

The World Cup. That's where it's at. For all the guff about exploring things in greater depth, financial trends and greater perspectives. You can throw another 100 words at it, but you're only applying a band aid to try and cover the one glaring gap between Messi and Maradona.

Lol so let's get this straight. Forget argument, logic or any kind of debate that doesn't suit your very narrow viewpoint. Afterall those are only words. At the same time, let's use phrases like "leader of men" to champion Maradona over Messi. Sorry, too ridiculous for me and, as a result, I shall have a hearty laugh and leave this thread for good.

daithijjj

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

That makes literally no sense.

It makes every bit of sense because Maradonna was a hard basterd in his own right, had the bulk and strength. Messi wouldnt have been able to endure what Maradonna got served imo.

Shanotheslayer

daithijjj wrote: »

It makes every bit of sense because Maradonna was a hard basterd in his own right, had the bulk and strength. Messi wouldnt have been able to endure what Maradonna got served imo.

You compared something said they would be different then stated it would have been the exact same.

Korat

Maradona '86 was v Platini '82-86 for world's best player.

I think Platini still hates that he never had that showdown.

daithijjj

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

You compared something said they would be different then stated it would have been the exact same.

Perhaps worded badly but fairly obvious in the implication of its content, no?.

Messi would have played 10 games a season tops if he played in the 80's due to the nature of the game and the physicality players were subjected to is all i meant by that. Players went out to break legs back then. Maradonna could hold his own in a way i dont believe Messi could have done. Maradonna would have run riot in today's game even moreso than he did in his own era imo but as i said initially you have to leave it there because simply put, they are the best of their generation and theres not much point arguing the toss.

tastyt

This whole maradona dragged Argentina single handedly to the world cup really annoys me.

He won it with Argentina, who had also won it 8 years previously, he didn't win it with a load of part timers from Andorra, there were plenty of players in that side , he was of course their extra special driving force.

Also, Napoli spent a lot of money putting a good side together so he wasn't in a team of total plebs their either as some people would have you believe.

I think I read somewhere that he also never scored more than 20 in a season for napoli.

An all time great, without doubt but what messi has done with Barcelona surpasses it for me, he has made Barcelona what they are, the greatest club side ever and has broke all goalscoring records. The world cup is the only thing left to beat him with and he may never win it but neither did cruyff or best, Brazilian Ronaldo never won a champions league, not every great player can win everything.

And this is without mentioning that maradona tested positive for performance enhancing drugs. Why is this swept under the table? Why is he not a figure of shame like lance Armstrong?

eagle eye

Messi has played in teams rich with world class talent all his life to this point at club level.

Maradona played in teams both at club level and at international level that were lacking but because of him they won.

Maradona is still the GOAT for me.

applehunter

Maradona was worth 50 stickers in World Cup '90 on the playground transfer market.

Messi will never match that.

Panthro

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

The term "Leader of men" makes me cringe every time I hear it.

What's it like when ya read it?!

Hercule Poirot

No mention of Pele so far - is it because he played with a great Brazil team, or because he never tested himself in Europe?

I think if Pele had played in Europe (and I assume had been successful) he would edge ahead of Maradona - but as it stands Maradona beats Pele hands down; to quote Eric Cantona:

“In the course of time, it will be said that Maradona was to football what Rimbaud was to poetry and Mozart to music”.

tastyt

tastyt wrote: »

This whole maradona dragged Argentina single handedly to the world cup really annoys me.

He won it with Argentina, who had also won it 8 years previously, he didn't win it with a load of part timers from Andorra, there were plenty of players in that side , he was of course their extra special driving force.
...
An all time great, without doubt but what messi has done with Barcelona surpasses it for me, he has made Barcelona what they are, the greatest club side ever and has broke all goalscoring records. The world cup is the only thing left to beat him with and he may never win it but neither did cruyff or best, Brazilian Ronaldo never won a champions league, not every great player can win everything.

And this is without mentioning that maradona tested positive for performance enhancing drugs. Why is this swept under the table? Why is he not a figure of shame like lance Armstrong?

If you thought the 86 Argentina side was great...you don't remember the 86 Argentina side. It's was underwhelming, workmanlike.

What makes your point more laughable is the bizarre insistence that Messi alone has made Barcelona great. Believe me, players like Xavi and Iniesta are good. Messi has never had to work with duds, Maradona did.

As for drugs, seriously? You are distinguishing Messi and Maradona on the basis of drug intake? Google "Messi drugs" and wade through the tens of thousands of articles.

Liam O

eagle eye wrote: »

Messi has played in teams rich with world class talent all his life to this point at club level.

Maradona played in teams both at club level and at international level that were lacking but because of him they won.

Maradona is still the GOAT for me.

How do you know Messi wouldn't be the same? Where does Mahrez fall then considering Leicester are going to win the most expensive league in the world with him POTY?

Was Michael Jordan not the best basketball player ever because of Scottie Pippen being great at the time too?

Ronaldo has won things with inferior players to Messi too so is he better because of it? Don't bring up Ozil, Benzema etc. as they are not Xavi or Iniesta or the rest.

Looking at all 3 of them it's ironic Ronaldo is the least likely to be on PEDs too

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Lol so let's get this straight. Forget argument, logic or any kind of debate that doesn't suit your very narrow viewpoint. Afterall those are only words.

Always good to start a day with a laugh. Thanks for being so...wonderfully unaware, AiG! Still laughing at your "club football is more important cos like it is, it's club football, it's...club" effort.

Richard Hillman

How on earth does a convicted drugs cheat get held in such esteem????? Everything Maradona achieved was based on a back of lies.

A self confessed cocaine addict during the mid 80s running rings around people during the 86 World Cup in 30+ degree heat.

Your moral compass must be dead inside if you think there is no problem with it. Or, you are one of those neanderthals that do not think doping makes you a better football.

Iused2likebusts

Comparing the 2 is difficult but using winning the world cup a month or 7 games out of someone's career as a defining factor is nonsense. The flip side of saying messi would have struggled with the physical side in the 80s is how would Maradona cope against defenders with more pace. There certainly wouldn't be any Peter Reid type players struggling to get back at him for that famous goal.

population

Here in Napoli there's only one possible answer to the Messi or Maradona question.

Gavlor

population wrote: »

Here in Napoli there's only one possible answer to the Messi or Maradona question.

Drugs?

Hercule Poirot

Richard Hillman wrote: »

How on earth does a convicted drugs cheat get held in such esteem????? Everything Maradona achieved was based on a back of lies.

A self confessed cocaine addict during the mid 80s running rings around people during the 86 World Cup in 30+ degree heat.

Your moral compass must be dead inside if you think there is no problem with it. Or, you are one of those neanderthals that do not think doping makes you a better football.

You are kind of proving the point though, Maradona did all of that while off his nut on coke - imagine if he had been sober :eek:

Skylinehead

daithijjj wrote: »

What Maradonna did for his country and Napoli, Messi will never touch. Messi would never have had a career in Maradonna's day. He would have had the sh1te kicked out of him like Maradonna had. All that said, its simple.

They are the best of their own generation, leave it there.

You should watch a few Liga matches - you'd then notice that Messi does indeed get the sh1te kicked out of him.

kfallon

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

The flip side of saying messi would have struggled with the physical side in the 80s is how would Maradona cope against defenders with more pace.

Can you tell me who all the great defenders are who are currently playing please?

It's never been easier in the game to score goals as it is now, since the borefest of World Cup 1990 the rules have been tweaked to constantly suit the attackers and create entertainment. Offside law is such that you can stand in a clear offside position now but within seconds you are onside again. Backpass rule, teams can no longer stifle games by passing the ball back for the keeper to pick up. Straight red cards for tackles that wouldn't even get a yellow in 80's & 90's. Footballs that fly all over the place making it even harder for keepers. Defenders who can't defend but 'can play out from the back', Thiago Silva, David Luiz et al, disasters waiting to happen, an attackers dream.

Maradona is the greatest imo, only Ronaldo in his Barca/Inter days comes close to him.

Richard Hillman

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

You are kind of proving the point though, Maradona did all of that while off his nut on coke - imagine if he had been sober :eek:

No, he could not have possibly done it all without taking PEDs.

Iused2likebusts

kfallon wrote: »

Can you tell me who all the great defenders are who are currently playing please?

It's never been easier in the game to score goals as it is now, since the borefest of World Cup 1990 the rules have been tweaked to constantly suit the attackers and create entertainment. Offside law is such that you can stand in a clear offside position now but within seconds you are onside again. Backpass rule, teams can no longer stifle games by passing the ball back for the keeper to pick up. Straight red cards for tackles that wouldn't even get a yellow in 80's & 90's. Footballs that fly all over the place making it even harder for keepers. Defenders who can't defend but 'can play out from the back', Thiago Silva, David Luiz et al, disasters waiting to happen, an attackers dream.

Maradona is the greatest imo, only Ronaldo in his Barca/Inter days comes close to him.

I didn't say anything about great defenders nowadays i said they are quicker. What I'm saying is you judge players on what you see them do on the pitch. Not what you think they may or may not have done 30 years ago for messi or 30 years on for Maradona. The game has changed if messi was around 30 years ago he could afford to have been a bit heavier as players weren't as quick. Maradona would need to be more toned if he was playing nowadays.

Shanotheslayer

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

You are kind of proving the point though, Maradona did all of that while off his nut on coke - imagine if he had been sober :eek:

I've played with a few players who used to smoke joints before playing a game, and they'd be unbelivable. But if they didn't smoke it they wouldn't be as good for whatever reason.

The few players I spoke to about it just said 'It relaxed them before the game and they felt more in control'


So that kind of kills that argument, drugs effect people differently.

Shanotheslayer

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

So that kind of kills that argument, drugs effect people differently.

They sure do...without them, Messi would be a very small but neat player in some local side in Argentina!

Yes, I know. There is, obviously a difference between cocaine, growth hormones, ephedrine and so on.

Liam O

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

You are kind of proving the point though, Maradona did all of that while off his nut on coke - imagine if he had been sober :eek:

List some of the effects of cocaine there would you?

rob316

I was too young to actually watch Maradona live, and there is no doubt he was one of the best ever but from what the older generation tell me Messi is every bit as good and probably better. Comparing them as leaders is unfair, Messi is a bit of shy character and Maradona is more like a Suarez, a genius but someone with a flawed personality.

Messi is undoubtedly the greatest I have seen, the only other player who consistently blew my mind was Zidane.