Maradona...

Hercule Poirot

Liam O wrote: »

List some of the effects of cocaine there would you?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

No mention of Pele so far - is it because he played with a great Brazil team, or because he never tested himself in Europe?

I think if Pele had played in Europe (and I assume had been successful) he would edge ahead of Maradona - but as it stands Maradona beats Pele hands down; to quote Eric Cantona:

“In the course of time, it will be said that Maradona was to football what Rimbaud was to poetry and Mozart to music”.

South American club football was probably as strong as European Club football back in Pele's time.Santos won the interncontinental cup the 2 times they played in it in the 60's and regularly beat Euoropean teams on overseas tours.South American teams won 6/10 intercontinental cups in th 1960's and all of Brazil players during Pele's time played in Brazil.

cowboyBuilder

Jon Obi Mikel

recylingbin

When messi scored that goal after the mazy dribble against Bilbao, it was compared to maradona's goal. If someonenelse does it, it will be compared to maradona's goal. Maradona is the benchmark.
He's simply the best player I've ever seen. And I include peter Beardsley in that.

Hercule Poirot

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Jon Obi Mikel

I'm pretty sure your hands slipped and you meant to type Alfe-Inge Haaland

Andersonisgod

recylingbin wrote: »

When messi scored that goal after the mazy dribble against Bilbao, it was compared to maradona's goal. If someonenelse does it, it will be compared to maradona's goal. Maradona is the benchmark.
He's simply the best player I've ever seen. And I include peter Beardsley in that.

You've confused personality with performance. Maradona is a larger than life personality from a bygone era when you could count on 1 hand the amount you'd see players on the continent play in a single season. A time before every 2nd person could list out the Barcelona/Real Madrid/Juventus/Bayern Munich squad. As such, Maradona's great moments are magnified a massive amount because you have nothing else to base your evaluation of him on. When you talk about consistent greatness, genius and performance at the very highest level Messi is streets ahead. To steal a quote from Jorge Valdano "Maradona was Maradona some days, Messi is Maradona every day." The current Argentine maestro is the greatest of all time.

LuckyLloyd

I have little doubt that Messi has utilised PEDs during his career. As a confirmed Tax cheat, I doubt he has any ethical objection to such rule breaking.

I find the argument that Maradona existed in a much tougher era with lessor sides extremely convincing.

He was also a much more compelling emotional character than Messi, far more likeable and relatable - though that's by the by when comparing their talent of course.

Arghus

Messi has been more consistent - far more consistent - throughout his career and he still has some of his road to run. The future is still unwritten.

BUT

You can't ignore that Maradona played in an era of comparitive teak toughness, with less protection, resouces and preperation and I think that counts for something. You wonder how well he would do in todays hyper professional world of top level football? Personally, I think he'd be even more unbelievable than he was already. Could you say the same for Messi, if he were somehow transported back to the eighties?

Who knows? That's the real answer. Debates between which one of them is the greater player always end up going round in circles. We don't know and, I think, we cant know: comparing two players from two completely different eras is a tough game and largely futile.

recylingbin

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You've confused personality with performance. Maradona is a larger than life personality from a bygone era when you could count on 1 hand the amount you'd see players on the continent play in a single season. A time before every 2nd person could list out the Barcelona/Real Madrid/Juventus/Bayern Munich squad. As such, Maradona's great moments are magnified a massive amount because you have nothing else to base your evaluation of him on. When you talk about consistent greatness, genius and performance at the very highest level Messi is streets ahead. To steal a quote from Jorge Valdano "Maradona was Maradona some days, Messi is Maradona every day." The current Argentine maestro is the greatest of all time.

I base it on having watched him play.

Strumms

I'd say Messi for me... As regards the International debate... Maradona was playing with far better talent in his Argentina sides than I think Messi has had around him so I think just to say that Maradona has won more Internationally and or had a greater impact on the international stage is a bit misleading.

chopperbyrne

Maradona is the GOAT.

Messi hasn't even the best player in his own team for a large chunk of his career so far, with Xavi and Iniesta both being better.

Despite ludicrously being awarded the player of the tournament at the last World Cup, he again wasn't the best player on his team either.

CSF

Messi has everything Maradona had but adds crazy goal scoring records to the table also. I would go along with the idea that the fact that there is a conversation going on this topic implies to me that this is based on an overly-romanticised notion of Maradona. He could never match Messi for consistent brilliance. When he was magic he was magic but the same is merely a typical Saturday night for Messi. Himself and Ronaldo will have changed the standards we've set for players, to the point where we're all going to be stunned when they're both gone and nobody can take up the mantle in the same way.

Corholio

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You've confused personality with performance. Maradona is a larger than life personality from a bygone era when you could count on 1 hand the amount you'd see players on the continent play in a single season. A time before every 2nd person could list out the Barcelona/Real Madrid/Juventus/Bayern Munich squad. As such, Maradona's great moments are magnified a massive amount because you have nothing else to base your evaluation of him on. When you talk about consistent greatness, genius and performance at the very highest level Messi is streets ahead. To steal a quote from Jorge Valdano "Maradona was Maradona some days, Messi is Maradona every day." The current Argentine maestro is the greatest of all time.

But if there's 'nothing else to base your evaluation on', what are you basing your evaluation on Maradona on? The people who used to watch Maradona aren't magnifying his moments a massive lot at all, their opinion is just as valid as anyone else these days who watch football on TV. Saying his moments are magnified a massive amount is a huge exaggeration, today's media coverage, and everything else that goes with it completely trumps anything in the past for making out things bigger than they actually are. I don't have a solid opinion on who is the greatest but to dismiss Maradona like that because things were 'different' in the past and not taking into account at all the negatives of the game today is wrong imo.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

I'd say Messi for me... As regards the International debate... Maradona was playing with far better talent in his Argentina sides than I think Messi has had around him so I think just to say that Maradona has won more Internationally and or had a greater impact on the international stage is a bit misleading.

The squad that win the World Cup in 1986 was drawn almost entirely from the Argentinian league. The only other player at a high profile club was Valdano at Real Madrid who didn't exactly set the world alight as an international, 7 goals in his 23 caps. What players are you thinking of that were better than the likes of Mascherano, Aguero, Zabaleta, di Maria etc. etc.?

gosplan

Obv Messi's a better pro but Maradonna was just pure character and you can't help loving him for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebs7Qe2nmOI

marklazarcovic

messi,by a country mile,if maradonna was in his prime playing at the same time as messi he would not have scored as many,or created as many,as leo messi. his records will never be equalled imo,ronaldo has astonishing scoring records also,but messi will add plenty more to his,ronaldo's career will be over for a few seasons before messi's.


imo.



yes i did see maradonna play.

eagle eye

Liam O wrote: »

How do you know Messi wouldn't be the same? Where does Mahrez fall then considering Leicester are going to win the most expensive league in the world with him POTY?

Was Michael Jordan not the best basketball player ever because of Scottie Pippen being great at the time too?

Ronaldo has won things with inferior players to Messi too so is he better because of it? Don't bring up Ozil, Benzema etc. as they are not Xavi or Iniesta or the rest.

Looking at all 3 of them it's ironic Ronaldo is the least likely to be on PEDs too

Well there is where you made your mistake.

Michael Jordan is probably the greatest sportsman ever.
He played with Scottie Pippen and a whole host of players and won three NBA titles, then went off and tried Baseball for two years and came back and won another three NBA titles.

In the two years he was gone, Scottie Pippen and all those other players on the Bulls teams didn't win or get close to winning anything.

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

...will there ever be another like him?

When he was playing, I knew he was just a genius. We all did. Possibly the greatest ever, certainly the greatest in my lifetime up to then. And we thought when he's gone, others would take up his mantle and go on to dominate the game.

But we're now 20 years on from his fall, 30 years from Mexico '86...and no player has. Sure, some have been outstanding, Zidane, Messi etc. But for me, no one has eclipsed him. And I'm now starting to think, was that it? Have we seen pretty much the most naturally talented leader and we now have to watch others that pale by comparison?

I think while Maradona is one of the very, very best ever he is also given some allowances that others would not. He had a few unsuccessful club stints (relative to 'the legend' at least), and while his role was not about goals, had Ronaldo been around back then to bang in 50+ every single year, or Messi getting similar hauls, they would have been seen as his equals.

We're watching arguably the best two players of all time, and we're watching them right now.

eagle eye

Also, at international level Spain, which was full of Barcelona players, won everything around them over a four year period.

They did it without Messi.

He hasn't done it without them.

daithijjj

Skylinehead wrote: »

You should watch a few Liga matches - you'd then notice that Messi does indeed get the sh1te kicked out of him.

You should watch games from the 80's and then you'd realise Messi takes part in garden party's not football matches.

Billy86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I have little doubt that Messi has utilised PEDs during his career. As a confirmed Tax cheat, I doubt he has any ethical objection to such rule breaking.

I find the argument that Maradona existed in a much tougher era with lessor sides extremely convincing.

He was also a much more compelling emotional character than Messi, far more likeable and relatable - though that's by the by when comparing their talent of course.

This one goes both ways, there was less stockpiling of great players at the top, top level back then compared to now* (a Maradona-less Napoli winning Serie A back then would not be nearly as difficult/unexpected as Leicester winning the Premier League this year, for example - let's not forget Verona won it only two years before Napoli) and the worse teams were typically less organised and prepared than they are today, moreso at international level.

*Then again on the flip side, Messi and Ronaldo do play ON those stockpiled teams.

Corholio

If I'm veering anywhere on who is the greatest debate it's always been slightly towards Messi, but I certainly think Maradona has been done a disservice by some because of it being the past or the romanticism of him. Most of the time with romanticism it's based on something pretty solid and with Maradona I firmly believe it was. I'd have Maradona above Ronaldo though. I think everyone can be biased towards their own era which is perfectly understandable and pretty normal but when it's dismissing certain players or saying that they are miles ahead etc when it is arguable, then I think it becomes too much.

corny

Zidane owns both of them when it comes to influencing games.

Messi's a wonderful player to watch but Xavi and Iniesta ramming 75% possession down your throat and totally dominating every team has to make life easier. He's also become an extremely lazy player.

Also the wider standard of football these days is piss poor. A bunch of middle distance runners make up the majority.

Billy86

corny wrote: »

Zidane owns both of them when it comes to influencing games.

Messi's a wonderful player to watch but Xavi and Iniesta ramming 75% possession down your throat and totally dominating every team has to make life easier. He's also become an extremely lazy player.

Also the wider standard of football these days is piss poor. A bunch of middle distance runners make up the majority.

Zidane was a great player, but he's also arguably the most overrated player of all time. If he were as influential as some like to make out, he would have retired with more than three league titles for a start.

recylingbin

Billy86 wrote: »

I think while Maradona is one of the very, very best ever he is also given some allowances that others would not. He had a few unsuccessful club stints (relative to 'the legend' at least), and while his role was not about goals, had Ronaldo been around back then to bang in 50+ every single year, or Messi getting similar hauls, they would have been seen as his equals.

We're watching arguably the best two players of all time, and we're watching them right now.

Messi and Ronaldo would spend 50% of a season lying on the ground and 45% of it injured if they played in maradona's era.
So by extrapolation, they'd have 5℅ of their current goal hauls.

Billy86

recylingbin wrote: »

Messi and Ronaldo would spend 50% of a season lying on the ground and 45% of it injured if they played in maradona's era.
So by extrapolation, they'd have 5℅ of their current goal hauls.

Maradona would spend 45% of modern games completely gassed and unable to keep up. So by extrapolation, he would have 5% of his output.

Both of those arguments are poor and lazy ones that always come up comparing across eras. Of course one played in a rougher time, and of course the other two played in a time with far higher physical demands and athletic standards.

adox

Maradonna is the greatest player I have ever seen play the game.

recylingbin

Billy86 wrote: »

Maradona would spend 45% of modern games completely gassed and unable to keep up. So by extrapolation, he would have 5% of his output.

Both of those arguments are poor and lazy ones that always come up comparing across eras. Of course one played in a rougher time, and of course the other two played in a time with far higher physical demands and athletic standards.

55%
+ 100% less hatchet tackles, which he got every single game. So 145% of his haul.

corny

Billy86 wrote: »

Maradona would spend 45% of modern games completely gassed and unable to keep up. So by extrapolation, he would have 5% of his output.

Both of those arguments are poor and lazy ones that always come up comparing across eras. Of course one played in a rougher time, and of course the other two played in a time with far higher physical demands and athletic standards.

Messi hardly extends himself in games. He's walking if the ball isn't at his feet. Would Maradona have a hard time matching that?

recylingbin

adox wrote: »

Maradonna is the greatest player I have ever seen play the game.

Is the right answer

Dirty Dingus McGee

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Maradona is the GOAT.

Messi hasn't even the best player in his own team for a large chunk of his career so far, with Xavi and Iniesta both being better.

Despite ludicrously being awarded the player of the tournament at the last World Cup, he again wasn't the best player on his team either.

Sorry but that isn't the case.As great as they are, Messi is better than both of them.

Billy86

recylingbin wrote: »

55%
+ 100% less hatchet tackles, which he got every single game. So 145% of his haul.

And carrying on by that logic, Messi and Ronaldo would be so much quicker and fitter that nobody would get close to them, leading to a goal nearly every time they touch the ball.

corny wrote: »

Messi hardly extends himself in games. He's walking if the ball isn't at his feet. Would Maradona have a hard time matching that?

Yes.

Richard Hillman

corny wrote: »

Messi hardly extends himself in games. He's walking if the ball isn't at his feet. Would Maradona have a hard time matching that?

A cocaine addict and a drinker running 9-10km per game, twice a week, everyweek wouldn't have worked. The PED doping would have had to have been off the scale and his liver or kidneys would have packed in before he hit 30.

Maradona would have been Ronaldinho after he lost his mojo.

corny

Richard Hillman wrote: »

A cocaine addict and a drinker running 9-10km per game, twice a week, everyweek wouldn't have worked. The PED doping would have had to have been off the scale and his liver or kidneys would have packed in before he hit 30.

Maradona would have been Ronaldinho after he lost his mojo.

Worked for the Barcelona lads.

Legacy still assured as Messi misses peno than quits international football...

HalloweenJack

Messi has given so much to football that it's a shame he'll be dismissed by people who think winning a World Cup is the pinnacle of a footballing career.

Don't get me wrong, doing it and especially being a big part of it is an incredible achievement but I don't think it makes anyone less of a player if they don't and I think it's incredibly harsh on Messi and Ronaldo to dismiss their achievements just because they haven't or never will win a World Cup.

Dirty Dingus McGee

He'll be back for the next world cup he's just throiwng his toys out of the pram to get some change introduced in the Argentinian setup.

I really hope Argentina win the next World Cup and Portugal win the euros and then any tiny questions marks people have about Ronaldo and Messi would be put to bed once and for all.

Maradona >>>Messi for Argentina


Messi >>>Maradona in club football

chopperbyrne

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Maradona >>>Messi for Argentina


Messi >>>Maradona in club football

Not so sure about that.

Messi arrived into an already dominant team, who have continued to dominate.

Maradona won Serie A titles with Napoli who were in no way dominant at the time.

eagle eye

Everything Messi has won has been as part of a team of greats. Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Ramos, Villa, Neymar, Suarez and the list goes on.

The Spanish players won two Euros and a World Cup without Messi.

Maradona won the World Cup with a very ordinary side, he won Serie A and the Uefa Cup with Napoli with a very ordinary side.

gimmick

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

chopperbyrne wrote:

Messi arrived into an already dominant team, who have continued to dominate.

Messi was on the verge of following the likes of Deco and Ronaldinhos footsteps of self destruction under Rijkard. When Pep came in Messi was still a precocious young talent. Showed soem amazing flashes, but was not the finished article by any means.

Many also needs reminding that the Barca side of 2008 where Messi really stepped up had finished 2007/08 3rd. Xavi was on the verge of leaving. Busquets was an unknown. Etoo was a headcase who Pep couldn't get rid of. Pique was a Man Utd "reject". Perhaps Messi was the tide who rose all those ships?

Billy86

gimmick wrote: »

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

I'm sorry, what?

Skylinehead

gimmick wrote: »

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

Given the plentiful talk about whether Messi is the greatest player of all time or not, I think his status as an all time great is fairly assured.

murpho999

Liam O wrote: »

Messi has surpassed him by all measures bar internationally.

Which means he has not surpassed him.

Maradona was a far superior player in his prime than Messi in my opinon.

CSF

murpho999 wrote: »

Which means he has not surpassed him.

Maradona was a far superior player in his prime than Messi in my opinon.

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Guy:Incognito

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I really hope Argentina win the next World Cup and Portugal win the euros and then any tiny questions marks people have about Ronaldo and Messi would be put to bed once and for all.

I dont, Ronaldos been a proper spoilt little petulant child lately.His attitude is horrible at times.

Gbear

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm sorry, what?

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

Kobe248

Gbear wrote: »

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

Get off would you

Di Maria was the star for Argentina at that world cup

Messi was poor

Same way he has been poor in both Copas since

The pressure on him is to much for Argentina

Billy86

Gbear wrote: »

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

That team didn't concede a single goal in the knockout stages (until Goetze in ET of the final) - just shy of 450 minutes, or seven and a half hours of competitive play. That's ridiculous, and it's the reason they got to the final.

Look, as I said earlier Messi is one of the greatest players of all time - if he retired tomorrow, he would still be in the argument with Pele/Maradona & co at the very top. But the hyperbole can be a bit over the top at times. Messi did nothing in the semi final or the final itself, and literally walked away from the team as Sabella and Mascherano were trying to rouse everyone for the last 15 minutes of ET in the final (or else it was just before ET began?)... and eagerness of some to write this off and pretend it wasn't the case (in both instances) is simply just denial. Another example is the late winner he scored against Iran in the groups; yes it was a quality goal right at the death... but it was against Iran. If he were playing as well as made out through that tournament they would have been cruising long before (he was ridiculous against Nigeria, mind).

He had a good tournament, but drag them to the final? Not even close. There's a solid argument to be made that Garay was also more important than him in getting to the final. If we are to give the 'dragged them to the final' moniker to anyone on that team, it was without question the guy who should have been the captain.

Gbear

He also had a big hand in Di Maria's goal against Switzerland in the last 16 and scored another pearler against Bosnia.

And that despite being essentially broken at the time, barely running during games.

They wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the knockout stages, never mind the final without him.
There were players who performed better by their own standards - Mascherano chief among them, but Messi had the biggest influence despite not being great by his own standards.