Maradona...

CSF

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Definitely.

Maradona was unreal but Messi and Ronaldo are consistently unreal for a decade now


Saying all that it's Maradona I'd rather go and watch if I had the choice

titan18

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

It's extremely difficult to compare due to how football has changed since then. You might think Messi gets hacked by defenders, but what Maradona was subjected to was ridiculous, as it was the only way to stop him. Tackling has come a long way since the 80s, most players would be sent off for what Maradona had done to him every match

enzo roco

I dont like the term, "Dragged the team".
Pele, messi, maradonna, ronaldo etc. never really dragged their team to a trophy. Its impossible. It is a team sport after all.
But they did do exceptional things at certain times to help their teams. And they were/are the stand out players for their teams.

This debate is useless. Waste of time. So is the messi - ronaldo debate.
And thats all I have to say about that

murpho999

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Did you see Maradona in the World Cup in 86? Messi has never dominated a tournament like that.

Billy86

Gbear wrote: »

He also had a big hand in Di Maria's goal against Switzerland in the last 16 and scored another pearler against Bosnia.

And that despite being essentially broken at the time, barely running during games.

They wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the knockout stages, never mind the final without him.
There were players who performed better by their own standards - Mascherano chief among them, but Messi had the biggest influence despite not being great by his own standards.

How would they have never got out of the groups without him? He was absurd against Nigeria, but only played well for a 15 minute spell vs Bosnia and was completely invisible against bloody Iran up until the very end. Given the talent Argentina had in attacking positions, someone on the bench could have very conceivably had more of an impact than him over those two games.

His injury went unmentioned all tournament because it wasn't a factor, he had been back playing for Barca since January and looked fully fit. Yet before Germany had even lifted the title, the RTE studio, Twitter, etc were falling over themselves to remind us just how badly injured Messi apparently had been all tournament. If he had MOTM matches and scored 2-3 goals vs the Dutch and Germans, we never even would have been given that narrative.

Argentina got to the final thanks to Mascherano first and foremost and it's really not a question (you can't lose a game without conceding any goals - Argentina conceded 0 in 7.5 hours of play), probably Garay most after that, then either Messi or Di Maria. Saying Messi 'dragged them to the final' is nothing short of completely incorrect. Saying Messi had the biggest influence on their team is completely incorrect. This has nothing to do with 'by their standards' - the 2/3 guys listed were simply better than Messi in that tournament, and were on the same team as him.

You might as well claim Mahrez 'dragged Leicester to the title' this year, it's completely false.

Dirty Dingus McGee

gimmick wrote: »

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.



Messi was on the verge of following the likes of Deco and Ronaldinhos footsteps of self destruction under Rijkard. When Pep came in Messi was still a precocious young talent. Showed soem amazing flashes, but was not the finished article by any means.

Many also needs reminding that the Barca side of 2008 where Messi really stepped up had finished 2007/08 3rd. Xavi was on the verge of leaving. Busquets was an unknown. Etoo was a headcase who Pep couldn't get rid of. Pique was a Man Utd "reject". Perhaps Messi was the tide who rose all those ships?

But everyone says Johann Cryuff is an all time great (and rightly so) despite him never winning a World Cup either.

Winning a World Cup has a degree of luck involved the teams can't afford a slip in form at all and not have any injuries.If the world cup was played every year Argentina more than likely would have won by now but it's not so it doesn't give a true reflection of how good an international team has really been across a players career.

Giggsy11

I don't think world cup wins should be the criteria to decide whether Messi is GOAT or not. If that's the case then his GOAT status is decided by none other than the serial bottler Higuain. Still don't understand why they continue to play him (Higuain) when they have so many good strikers.

Anyways for me Messi is the best player I have seen. His ridiculous consistency for 8-10 seasons was just superb and he is just 29. For me he is the best player in the world, best dribbler, best passer and some of the passes he plays only he can play them.

captbarnacles

The MOST amazing thing about Ronaldo and Messi is that they are hailed as geniuses even though you can watch every single game the y play and their performance is analysed constantly. They have taken performance to a previously unknown level with consistent brilliance. It might be 20 years from now before people realise just how crazy their level is.

I saw a lot of Maradona and he had terrible games mixed with brilliance. Put it this way you could make a highlights reel from Ronaldo or Messi from half a season that would be Maradona's career highlights.

Messi still the best for me because he can beat a player from a standing start.

Billy86

captbarnacles wrote: »

The MOST amazing thing about Ronaldo and Messi is that they are hailed as geniuses even though you can watch every single game the y play and their performance is analysed constantly. They have taken performance to a previously unknown level with consistent brilliance. It might be 20 years from now before people realise just how crazy their level is.

I saw a lot of Maradona and he had terrible games mixed with brilliance. Put it this way you could make a highlights reel from Ronaldo or Messi from half a season that would be Maradona's career highlights.

I'm too young to have seen Maradona properly (born '86, his WC'94 coke roar is one of the only live memories I have of him playing) but this is something I have wondered about him and others. The WC is used as 'the' standard because it used to be when the world really was watching (since most other matches weren't even televised)... now the world is watching when it's a Wednesday evening in November. Some of the guys put up as demi-gods back then, most would only see them play a half dozen times (if even) every four years.

We see a player or two become an absolute star in the WC/EC more often than not, and quite often they are proven to not be as good as they looked, and just hit a great bit of form at the right moment (El Hadji Diouf was a good example, albeit an older one). It does make you wonder how someone like that would be viewed if things were still like they were in the 50s/60s, or how some of the guys on a pedestal for their World Cup performances would be viewed in this day and age (not so much the Beckenbauers or Pele's of the world though, as they got it done consistently at club level too - at least as far as the history books/trophy histories can tell us!).

Gbear

Billy86 wrote: »

How would they have never got out of the groups without him? He was absurd against Nigeria, but only played well for a 15 minute spell vs Bosnia and was completely invisible against bloody Iran up until the very end. Given the talent Argentina had in attacking positions, someone on the bench could have very conceivably had more of an impact than him over those two games.

His injury went unmentioned all tournament because it wasn't a factor, he had been back playing for Barca since January and looked fully fit. Yet before Germany had even lifted the title, the RTE studio, Twitter, etc were falling over themselves to remind us just how badly injured Messi apparently had been all tournament. If he had MOTM matches and scored 2-3 goals vs the Dutch and Germans, we never even would have been given that narrative.

Argentina got to the final thanks to Mascherano first and foremost and it's really not a question (you can't lose a game without conceding any goals - Argentina conceded 0 in 7.5 hours of play), probably Garay most after that, then either Messi or Di Maria. Saying Messi 'dragged them to the final' is nothing short of completely incorrect. Saying Messi had the biggest influence on their team is completely incorrect. This has nothing to do with 'by their standards' - the 2/3 guys listed were simply better than Messi in that tournament, and were on the same team as him.

You might as well claim Mahrez 'dragged Leicester to the title' this year, it's completely false.

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

He did score the winner in all the group games.

Their bench was nothing to write home about with Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria on the pitch most of the time and the likes of Tevez not travelling.

He clearly was injured as evidenced by him barely running and the tiny amount of ground he covered in each game.

It wasn't a masterclass. He was miles from his best. All he was capable of was flashes of what he usually produces.
I don't even really agree that he "dragged" them, whatever that means in a team sport, but he was their single most important player, scoring or creating nearly all of their goals.

Sometimes players have an impact over every blade of grass and every minute of the game. Some produce the moments that win you games. While it's good to have the former, you can't win without the latter and that's why it's so highly prized.

And in the whole Maradona Messi thing, we shouldn't forget that perhaps a player with genuine claims to be included in the GOAT bracket alongside Diego may have played his last international tonight.

Buffon.

Iused2likebusts

I just don't get the fascination with how a player performs over a 6 or 7 game stretch over the course of a month to judge whether a plAyer is a true great or not. Particularly when the standard of club football is higher.

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

And in the whole Maradona Messi thing, we shouldn't forget that perhaps a player with genuine claims to be included in the GOAT bracket alongside Diego may have played his last international tonight.

Buffon.

He's playing on until at least 2018.

Ulysses Gaze

The differences between Maradona and Messi and how great they are, on the pitch, are so small that they render this debate fruitless.

All I can say is that I have been privileged enough to see both play at their peaks.

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I just don't get the fascination with how a player performs over a 6 or 7 game stretch over the course of a month to judge whether a plAyer is a true great or not. Particularly when the standard of club football is higher.

True. We should include club achievements.

In the case of Maradona, we have to include the fact that he dragged Napoli to 2 titles (and no team from the entire south of Italy had ever won it before) as well as a UEFA Cup. It was, by any stretch, an extraordinary run at both club and international level. He was, in a way that Messi could never be when surrounded by World Cup and Euro winners like Xavi and Iniesta, an inspiration who made those around him better than they could ever hope to be without him.

Iused2likebusts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True. We should include club achievements.

In the case of Maradona, we have to include the fact that he dragged Napoli to 2 titles (and no team from the entire south of Italy had ever won it before) as well as a UEFA Cup. It was, by any stretch, an extraordinary run at both club and international level. He was, in a way that Messi could never be when surrounded by World Cup and Euro winners like Xavi and Iniesta, an inspiration who made those around him better than they could ever hope to be without him.

Ye his 10 league goals in the 86 87 season title winning season singlehandedly dragged them over the line.

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ye his 10 league goals in the 86 87 season title winning season singlehandedly dragged them over the line.

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

mickmackey1

There is also the question of style. I find Messi's short, rapid steps when in possession less artistic than Maradona's loping, expansive swagger. Messi keeps the ball as close as possible at all times, whereas Maradona tempted defenders with a morsel of possession before regaining control at the last instant, and then accelerating out of reach - usually with an evil change of direction. Purely a matter of personal preference I suppose.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

Maradona played 7 seasons in Italy and only once was he top scorer he was regularly outscored by fairly unfashionable names.

To put the argument back in Messi's favour he has only been outscored by future all time greats during his peak years.

2 great players but Messi's goalscoring record is of a different level to Maradono and you can't totally take the league into account as Messi is only beaten by greats whenever he plays Maradona wasn't.

Iused2likebusts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

Football has changed it was more physical 30 years ago and suited maradonas physique. These days football is much quicker than it was 30 years ago and Maradona would have to adapt the same way messi would have to 30 years ago. No player these days has to face a brutal defence . Different challenges in different eras

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Football has changed it was more physical 30 years ago and suited maradonas physique. These days football is much quicker than it was 30 years ago and Maradona would have to adapt the same way messi would have to 30 years ago. No player these days has to face a brutal defence . Different challenges in different eras

Oh I accept what you say, no doubt Maradona was stronger than Messi, both in terms of physically withstanding tackles and mentally, leading a team to the World Cup, to Italian titles and UEFA cups etc.

Ulysses Gaze

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maradona played 7 seasons in Italy and only once was he top scorer he was regularly outscored by fairly unfashionable names.

To put the argument back in Messi's favour he has only been outscored by future all time greats during his peak years.

2 great players but Messi's goalscoring record is of a different level to Maradono and you can't totally take the league into account as Messi is only beaten by greats whenever he plays Maradona wasn't.

Perhaps because Messi was not playing against defenders like Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Passarella, Bergomi, Matthaus etc etc on a regular basis.

Defenders in Italy could defend back then. Sergio Ramos and Pepe are not even close to the quality of defenders Maradona faced in Italy.

Remember, Ian Rush scored 30 league goals in 42 league games for Liverpool before he left for Juventus back in 1987. He scored 7 in 29 in Italy.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Perhaps because Messi was not playing against defenders like Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Passarella, Bergomi, Matthaus etc etc on a regular basis.

Defenders in Italy could defend back then. Sergio Ramos and Pepe are not even close to the quality of defenders Maradona faced in Italy.

Remember, Ian Rush scored 30 league goals in 42 league games for Liverpool before he left for Juventus back in 1987. He scored 7 in 29 in Italy.

Not denying that Maradona had it tough compared to Messi.

But my major point was that he was regularly outscored by non great players.This decade Messi has only been outscored by Ronaldo or Suarez.

Messi also scored 50 league goals in a season which is probably the most impressive thing he has done in his career and which will not be matched for a long long time in any major league.

Kobe248

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Not denying that Maradona had it tough compared to Messi.

But my major point was that he was regularly outscored by non great players.This decade Messi has only been outscored by Ronaldo or Suarez.

Messi also scored 50 league goals in a season which is probably the most impressive thing he has done in his career and which will not be matched for a long long time in any major league.

Im not sure who out scored him is a great way to judge

Kevin Phillps out scored plenty of superstars his season as did Danel Guiza with Mallorca

Personally I cant pick between Messi and Maradonna Im to young

But I have relations from Argentina and its not even close for them

They pick Maradonna every time

To much emphasis is placed on goal scoring imo

Zidane wasnt a prolific scorer, does anyone doubt him as Frances best player

Messi plays in a league where its easier to score than Maradonna and a different style generation wise

For me if I was to compare a player to Maradonna it would be Ronaldinho

All the talent in the world more so than both Messi/Ronaldo whos stars shone brightly for a brief time and boy did it shine

But the lack of professionalism stopped them from truly showing it over the long term

Dirty Dingus McGee

Kobe248 wrote: »

Im not sure who out scored him is a great way to judge

Kevin Phillps out scored plenty of superstars his season as did Danel Guiza with Mallorca

Personally I cant pick between Messi and Maradonna Im to young

But I have relations from Argentina and its not even close for them

They pick Maradonna every time

To much emphasis is placed on goal scoring imo

Zidane wasnt a prolific scorer, does anyone doubt him as Frances best player

Messi plays in a league where its easier to score than Maradonna and a different style generation wise

For me if I was to compare a player to Maradonna it would be Ronaldinho

All the talent in the world more so than both Messi/Ronaldo whos stars shone brightly for a brief time and boy did it shine

But the lack of professionalism stopped them from truly showing it over the long term

Personally I think not enough emphasis is placed on goalscoring particularly when Messi is not lacking in skill or creativity compared to any player. It it the most important aspect off the game and the greatest way you can influence the game and your team mates performances is by scoring a goal and making it easier for your team and your team mates.

Zidane is actually a good example, because for the great player that he was he definitely din't score as many goals across his whole career as he could have , I heard Louis Saha who would have played with him making that comment a while back.

Peiople in Argentina only seem to judge him on his international performances and the fact they haven't won a world cup with him, .The club game is way more important now and I'd place much more emphasis on the competitions players play in week in week out than on a tournament played once every 4 years.

Kobe248

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Personally I think not enough emphasis is placed on goalscoring particularly when Messi is not lacking in skill or creativity compared to any player. It it the most important aspect off the game and the greatest way you can influence the game and your team mates performances is by scoring a goal and making it easier for your team and your team mates.

Zidane is actually a good example, because for the great player that he was he definitely din't score as many goals across his whole career as he could have , I heard Louis Saha who would have played with him making that comment a while back.

Peiople in Argentina only seem to judge him on his international performances and the fact they haven't won a world cup with him, .The club game is way more important now and I'd place much more emphasis on the competitions players play in week in week out than on a tournament played once every 4 years.

But Maradonna did have a successful career at club level

He got a team to win Seria that never had before

As I said its impossible to judge across generations

Like Gerd Muller should be considered the greatest going by your logic as hes the greatest goalscorer

But he is never in these conversations

Its like the way Neymar/Robinho get compared to Pele when they dont even play the same way

You can judge a player on country form in Messis case, its not just one tournament he has pretty much flopped at them all

I do feel sorry for him, the pressure he is on is unbelievable

Dirty Dingus McGee

Kobe248 wrote: »

But Maradonna did have a successful career at club level

He got a team to win Seria that never had before

As I said its impossible to judge across generations

Like Gerd Muller should be considered the greatest going by your logic as hes the greatest goalscorer

But he is never in these conversations

Its like the way Neymar/Robinho get compared to Pele when they dont even play the same way

You can judge a player on country form in Messis case, its not just one tournament he has pretty much flopped at them all

I do feel sorry for him, the pressure he is on is unbelievable

Messi is Argentina's all time top scorer and has had a good international career.Hisn was excellent in the early stages of the last world cup and definitely looked to be carrying an injury as the tournament went on.

The game wasn't as intense back in the day so the best players had energy to give at international tournaments that isn't the case anymore and loads of top player in the last 10 years don't seem to be able to replicate their club form in international tournaments.

Maradona did have a great career at club level just nowhere near as ridiculously consistent as Messi was.

Gerd Muller shouldn't be considered because the rest of his game was lacking,Messi does everything an attacking and creative player should and he scores bucket loads of goals, all Muller did was score goals.

Kobe248

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Messi is Argentina's all time top scorer and has had a good international career.Hisn was excellent in the early stages of the last world cup and definitely looked to be carrying an injury as the tournament went on.

The game wasn't as intense back in the day so the best players had energy to give at international tournaments that isn't the case anymore and loads of top player in the last 10 years don't seem to be able to replicate their club form in international tournaments.

Maradona did have a great career at club level just nowhere near as ridiculously consistent as Messi was.

Gerd Muller shouldn't be considered because the rest of his game was lacking,Messi does everything an attacking and creative player should and he scores bucket loads of goals, all Muller did was score goals.

I cant agree with you about the world cup

He was poor, just because he got a few goals doesnt mean he was excellent

I think hes had a good international career, he needs to win something with all the talent he has around him, hes failed

He may be top scorer but look how much games hes played for the country compared to Batistuta

And hes been a big part of that failure by constantly failing to show up when the going gets tough

I honestly feel the reason players fail at international tournaments is because media exposure now days is so much more

You see the delight when Ronaldo/Messi misses

Its about a 100 times worse at international level

More so for Messi as Ronaldo isnt expected to win tournaments

I already said why Maradonna didnt have the extended club career of mess, snort snort :pac:

Too Tough To Die

Messi is the closest to perfection that there has been. He is the GOAT.

Billy86

If we are talking about perfect for their position I actually think his old team mate Xavi might be the most complete and close-to-perfect player I have ever seen.

Kobe248

Billy86 wrote: »

If we are talking about perfect for their position I actually think his old team mate Xavi might be the most complete and close-to-perfect player I have ever seen.

Id agree with that

Not sure how its relevant to Maradonna

Billy86

Maradona never had a Xavi, for one.

LuckyLloyd

They changed the rules of the sport to facilitate goalscoring. Maradona was great in an era where football was a great physical sport. Messi and Ronaldo dominate a comparative husk of a sport.

Skylinehead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They changed the rules of the sport to facilitate goalscoring. Maradona was great in an era where football was a great physical sport. Messi and Ronaldo dominate a comparative husk of a sport.

There's always been players who scored buckets of goals. Gerd Muller, Puskas and Kocsic, Pele. What changed in between them and Maradona, and again between Maradona and Messi/Ronaldo?

LuckyLloyd

Skylinehead wrote: »

There's always been players who scored buckets of goals. Gerd Muller, Puskas and Kocsic, Pele. What changed in between them and Maradona, and again between Maradona and Messi/Ronaldo?

The completion of pyramid inversion tactically certainly had an effect in terms of the first part of the question. If you merely look at the starting lineups of the Post World War II World Cup finals up to 1982 you can see a gradual predominance of more conservative approaches - up to Italy's back five with sweeper system that won the day in 1982.

Which is to say that football didn't necessarily require the protection afforded by the modern rule set to support free flowing football assuming tactics prioritized attack at the expense of defense. But the 80's and 90's saw a decisive shift to a more defensive tactical focus that - when allied to a no nonsense physical approach - could stymie attacking play at the top level.

The game of the 80's and 90's is the game I was introduced to as a kid. But knowing more about the history of the game now helps to place the wave of derision that surrounded the 1990 and 1994 finals in context. We (i.e. people aged 25 - 40) can see how the game has changed since then, but we forget that such a period represented a seismic shift from the game circa 1970 that our fathers would have grown up with. Ultimately in the 22 years since the 1994 World Cup there is no doubt that the interpretation of the rules of the game in terms of tackling and allowable physical contact has moved significantly in favour of the attacker and thus has facilitated the goalscoring exploits of Messi and Ronaldo. While the first shift from ~1954 to ~1980 was tactical in nature, the second shift from ~1994 to now has involved a fundamental re-imagining of the rules.

Players of their skillsets would have also scored hatfuls in the four up front era of the 60's and early 70's (though they would have paid a greater physical price to do so) much as Maradona would have also. The point I was making was that Maradona existed in the toughest defensive era in the history of the game where tactical nous married a 'they shalt not pass' attitude to enable great defensive teams like the Baresi Milan outfit. And within that era, he played in the toughest league which led the way in terms of devising and implementing the tactical standard of the time.

And as such, goalscoring is a highly flawed metric to focus on if one is interested in comparing players across different eras.

Kobe248

Skylinehead wrote: »

There's always been players who scored buckets of goals. Gerd Muller, Puskas and Kocsic, Pele. What changed in between them and Maradona, and again between Maradona and Messi/Ronaldo?

Not sure

But didnt the offside rule become a thing

Then again I could be wrong

eagle eye

Again I'll bring up the fact that everything Messi has won has been in ridiculously talented teams with players like Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Suarez, Sanchez, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves, Eto'o and there are more.

The fact that Spain won a World Cup and two Euros without Messi is an important note too. It means it's hard to say how important his impact was on Barcelona's success.

Maradona was consistent when playing for Napoli and winning Serie A. He was consistent in two World Cups where he dragged Argentina to the final twice and a win. He played with a lot of ordinary players who didn't do much when they weren't playing with Maradona.

eagle eye

Kobe248 wrote: »

Not sure

But didnt the offside rule become a thing

Then again I could be wrong

Don't forget the back pass. Back in Maradona's time you could keep passing the ball back to the keeper and he could pick it up. Many teams did that when they felt outmatched.

Dirty Dingus McGee

eagle eye wrote: »

Again I'll bring up the fact that everything Messi has won has been in ridiculously talented teams with players like Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Suarez, Sanchez, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves, Eto'o and there are more.

The fact that Spain won a World Cup and two Euros without Messi is an important note too. It means it's hard to say how important his impact was on Barcelona's success.

Maradona was consistent when playing for Napoli and winning Serie A. He was consistent in two World Cups where he dragged Argentina to the final twice and a win. He played with a lot of ordinary players who didn't do much when they weren't playing with Maradona.

More important than any other player.

Messi was replaced in the Spain team by Villa who was great player himself and Spain were never quite as good as Barca were.

All the passing from Iniesta and Xavi is worth nothing if you don't have a player to finish it off.

Villa was Spains most important player in 2010 where he scored more than half their goals in the tournament and where they ground out a lot of results.


Barca won the champions league in 06 without Xavi does that reduce his greatness,does Brazil winning in 1962 without Pele reduce his greatness, does the Netehrlands getting to the world cup final in 1978 without Cryuff reduce his greatness?

Billy86

Also to note that Maradona played deeper, and here are the top 3 scorers outside of him in Serie A during his Napoli years...

1984/85: Platini (18), Altobelli (17), Briaschi (12)
1985/86: Pruzza (19), Rumminegge (13), Platini (12)
1986/87: Virdis (17), Vialli (12), Altobelli (11)
1987/88: Careca (13), Virdis (11), Giannini (11)
1988/89: Serena (22), van Basten (19), Caera (19)
1989/90: Van Basten (19), Baggio (17), F*CK SCHILLACI (15)

*Careca was Napoli's main striker during this time.

Forget 20 goals as a marker, in those first four years only 4 other players got into the teens in a single season. It began to open up a bit in 1988/89 (partly due to to the league expanding from 16 to 18 teams), but in the four years from 1984 - 88 only two teams broke 50 league goals, at 51 (Roma, 85/86) and 55 (Napoli, 87/88). Napoli were no star studded team, but it does also have to be mentioned on the flip side that star-studded teams were a lot rarer due to registration rules, and Maradona did have some quality players with him, Careca probably most of all.

Personally I think Platini sometimes gets overlooked a little, as his goalscoring exploits and general form in the 80s was nothing short of incredible when you look at the league closer. He very possibly belongs in the discussion, or perhaps at least the Cruyff/Beckenbauer/Di Stefano type fringes of it.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

More important than any other player.

Messi was replaced in the Spain team by Villa who was great player himself and Spain were never quite as good as Barca were.

All the passing from Iniesta and Xavi is worth nothing if you don't have a player to finish it off.

Villa was Spains most important player in 2010 where he scored more than half their goals in the tournament and where they ground out a lot of results.


Barca won the champions league in 06 without Xavi does that reduce his greatness,does Brazil winning in 1962 without Pele reduce his greatness, does the Netehrlands getting to the world cup final in 1978 without Cryuff reduce his greatness?

If you had Xavi, you had 65% possession. He was easily Spain's best and most important player over their time of dominance, and very arguably was Barca's too.

Messi and Xavi played about as much as each other in 2005/06 by the way, the key player there was another who was looking to be a possible all time great before he just stopped caring - Ronaldinho. It was post Rijkaard that both stepped up considerably, just because Xavi's role wasn't as flashy doesn't make it any less important.

cj maxx

With out getting into whos better than who , anyone of an age to remember the '86! world cup will be in no doubt of maradonna's place in history . The greatest i have seen . Just for '86 alone !

Gbear

It's not just what Messi won.

It's how he did it.

He'd be ordinary tier amazing like Zidane or whatever if he was getting 40 goals/assists every season of any kind or if he was getting 20-30 goals/assists every season with goals of the calibre he regularly scores.

Instead he's getting 40-80 goals/assists every season and there's a depth of quality in those goals that has surely never been seen before.

It's a bit like the difference between Aguero and Suarez.
Aguero, assuming he's fit, on form and in a good team, will probably keep up with Suarez in goals.

He's probably not going to be routinely scoring goals where he dribbles through a whole team, or volleys it in from the halfway line, or headers it in from outside the box though.

There's a value in what Messi does beyond the numbers he scores/assists, just like Maradonna.

A goal scored or created in a way that could not have otherwise been done is far more valuable than a 10 a penny tap in, set piece or what have you.

A good team will create plenty of the latter by default, and Barca do, but what Messi adds cannot be got from elsewhere and I don't think anyone has been able to do that as consistently as he has for as long, in as many different levels.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Billy86 wrote: »

If you had Xavi, you had 65% possession. He was easily Spain's best and most important player over their time of dominance, and very arguably was Barca's too.

Messi and Xavi played about as much as each other in 2005/06 by the way, the key player there was another who was looking to be a possible all time great before he just stopped caring - Ronaldinho. It was post Rijkaard that both stepped up considerably, just because Xavi's role wasn't as flashy doesn't make it any less important.

I'm not trying to diminish Xavi just saying that the argument that Spain achieved without Messi could equally be applied to Xavi and other great players in different situations.

theoneeyedman

Tbh, I find these comparisons tiresome at best. The game has changed hugely since around 1990 with several rule changes that promote offensive play like curbs on hatchet men tackling, back pass, looser offside rules to name a few. To compare Diego to Messi using goals as a measure is like comparing apples to bananas, the games were completely different. If I had to offer an opinion I'd always say that IMHO Maradona was the greatest player I ever saw, but I can also appreciate Messi in particular for what he is. What Maradona achieved in terms of making a cultural differences to Naples, Southern Italy and Argentina with the Seria A and World Cup wins have never been repeated.... and to steal a line from somebody else he did all that while off his tits on Coke, imagine if he was sober!

Minderbinder

I still think Brazil's Ronaldo is the most phenomenal player I have seen. He was Messi and CR7 combined. Comparisons across sports don't really mean a lot but for me he was the Lomu of football. It was so easy for him at times. Cristiano has an incredible record but I wouldn't say he makes the game look easy.

I won't make comparisons to Maradona because I'm simply not qualified to do so.

Shanotheslayer

Minderbinder wrote: »

I won't make comparisons to Maradona because I'm simply not qualified to do so.

If only more people thought like this.


Can't compare myself as I wasn't around for the Maradona Era, I can only by clips that i've seen online etc.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'm not trying to diminish Xavi just saying that the argument that Spain achieved without Messi could equally be applied to Xavi and other great players in different situations.

Except Spain's period of dominance came and went with Xavi's peak years. The Barca '06 comparison is poor because he had yet to hit his peak, and had Ronaldinho sustained the level of play he had for those 2-3 for a few more, we might even have him somewhere in this conversation. If we are using that, then it just serves as further evidence against Messi, who only played the same number of games as Xavi that year... yet Barca still won it.

I do get what you are saying, but for me personally, Xavi was bordering on perfect and was every bit as effective and impactful as player as Messi or Ronaldo. I just don't like the common hangup that someone must be a goalscorer to be considered one of the greatest ever.

Seriously still a little gutted Ronaldinho stopped caring, easily the most exciting and unpredictable footballer I have ever seen during his career.

Agent Coulson

Minderbinder wrote: »

I still think Brazil's Ronaldo is the most phenomenal player I have seen. He was Messi and CR7 combined. Comparisons across sports don't really mean a lot but for me he was the Lomu of football. It was so easy for him at times. Cristiano has an incredible record but I wouldn't say he makes the game look easy.

I won't make comparisons to Maradona because I'm simply not qualified to do so.

I always find it sad that it seems the real Ronaldo will just be remembered for his weight gain after he retired and not what a phenomenal player he was and his top flight career really ended around the age of 28.


He was scoring nearly a goal a game in his prime a decade or more before Messi/Ronnie started doing it.

Minderbinder

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I always find it sad that it seems the real Ronaldo will just be remembered for his weight gain after he retired and not what a phenomenal player he was and his top flight career really ended around the age of 28.


He was scoring nearly a goal a game in his prime a decade or more before Messi/Ronnie started doing it.

Ah I'm not sure he's just remembered for gaining weight. He seems more of a forgotten man when these kind of discussions come up, maybe as you said because he wasn't around long enough. I hope over time he will be mentioned in these conversations more often. He may not have been the ultimate professional of the current day players and if he had I think it might have taken away some of the magic. CR7 was actually a much more exciting player to watch in his early days and seemed to care more about entertaining the crowd and having fun. If Messi didn't come along he might not have been so machine like and may have cared a little more about flair and a little less about end product.

I watched a youtube clip of Brazil's Ronaldo and some of his dribbling skills were on another planet. He was dribbling around defenders in the box in tight spaces using nutmegs and all sorts. Messi is an amazing player but he uses pace and his low center of gravity more so than skills when he tries to beat a man.