Maradona...

gimmick

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

chopperbyrne wrote:

Messi arrived into an already dominant team, who have continued to dominate.

Messi was on the verge of following the likes of Deco and Ronaldinhos footsteps of self destruction under Rijkard. When Pep came in Messi was still a precocious young talent. Showed soem amazing flashes, but was not the finished article by any means.

Many also needs reminding that the Barca side of 2008 where Messi really stepped up had finished 2007/08 3rd. Xavi was on the verge of leaving. Busquets was an unknown. Etoo was a headcase who Pep couldn't get rid of. Pique was a Man Utd "reject". Perhaps Messi was the tide who rose all those ships?

Billy86

gimmick wrote: »

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

I'm sorry, what?

Skylinehead

gimmick wrote: »

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.

Given the plentiful talk about whether Messi is the greatest player of all time or not, I think his status as an all time great is fairly assured.

murpho999

Liam O wrote: »

Messi has surpassed him by all measures bar internationally.

Which means he has not surpassed him.

Maradona was a far superior player in his prime than Messi in my opinon.

CSF

murpho999 wrote: »

Which means he has not surpassed him.

Maradona was a far superior player in his prime than Messi in my opinon.

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Guy:Incognito

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I really hope Argentina win the next World Cup and Portugal win the euros and then any tiny questions marks people have about Ronaldo and Messi would be put to bed once and for all.

I dont, Ronaldos been a proper spoilt little petulant child lately.His attitude is horrible at times.

Gbear

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm sorry, what?

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

Kobe248

Gbear wrote: »

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

Get off would you

Di Maria was the star for Argentina at that world cup

Messi was poor

Same way he has been poor in both Copas since

The pressure on him is to much for Argentina

Billy86

Gbear wrote: »

He scored or created all their goals along the way.

Himself and Mascherano were the entirity of that team.
Apparently it's not just Messi ****ing off.

About half the squad are retiring, allegedly in protest of corruption in their FA, which is hardly surprising in a country like Argentina.

Whatever about the quality of Maradonna's team, at least he didn't have Higuain sabotaging him at every turn.:pac:

That team didn't concede a single goal in the knockout stages (until Goetze in ET of the final) - just shy of 450 minutes, or seven and a half hours of competitive play. That's ridiculous, and it's the reason they got to the final.

Look, as I said earlier Messi is one of the greatest players of all time - if he retired tomorrow, he would still be in the argument with Pele/Maradona & co at the very top. But the hyperbole can be a bit over the top at times. Messi did nothing in the semi final or the final itself, and literally walked away from the team as Sabella and Mascherano were trying to rouse everyone for the last 15 minutes of ET in the final (or else it was just before ET began?)... and eagerness of some to write this off and pretend it wasn't the case (in both instances) is simply just denial. Another example is the late winner he scored against Iran in the groups; yes it was a quality goal right at the death... but it was against Iran. If he were playing as well as made out through that tournament they would have been cruising long before (he was ridiculous against Nigeria, mind).

He had a good tournament, but drag them to the final? Not even close. There's a solid argument to be made that Garay was also more important than him in getting to the final. If we are to give the 'dragged them to the final' moniker to anyone on that team, it was without question the guy who should have been the captain.

Gbear

He also had a big hand in Di Maria's goal against Switzerland in the last 16 and scored another pearler against Bosnia.

And that despite being essentially broken at the time, barely running during games.

They wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the knockout stages, never mind the final without him.
There were players who performed better by their own standards - Mascherano chief among them, but Messi had the biggest influence despite not being great by his own standards.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Definitely.

Maradona was unreal but Messi and Ronaldo are consistently unreal for a decade now


Saying all that it's Maradona I'd rather go and watch if I had the choice

titan18

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

It's extremely difficult to compare due to how football has changed since then. You might think Messi gets hacked by defenders, but what Maradona was subjected to was ridiculous, as it was the only way to stop him. Tackling has come a long way since the 80s, most players would be sent off for what Maradona had done to him every match

enzo roco

I dont like the term, "Dragged the team".
Pele, messi, maradonna, ronaldo etc. never really dragged their team to a trophy. Its impossible. It is a team sport after all.
But they did do exceptional things at certain times to help their teams. And they were/are the stand out players for their teams.

This debate is useless. Waste of time. So is the messi - ronaldo debate.
And thats all I have to say about that

murpho999

CSF wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Messi is what Maradona was on his best day on a weekly basis.

Did you see Maradona in the World Cup in 86? Messi has never dominated a tournament like that.

Billy86

Gbear wrote: »

He also had a big hand in Di Maria's goal against Switzerland in the last 16 and scored another pearler against Bosnia.

And that despite being essentially broken at the time, barely running during games.

They wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the knockout stages, never mind the final without him.
There were players who performed better by their own standards - Mascherano chief among them, but Messi had the biggest influence despite not being great by his own standards.

How would they have never got out of the groups without him? He was absurd against Nigeria, but only played well for a 15 minute spell vs Bosnia and was completely invisible against bloody Iran up until the very end. Given the talent Argentina had in attacking positions, someone on the bench could have very conceivably had more of an impact than him over those two games.

His injury went unmentioned all tournament because it wasn't a factor, he had been back playing for Barca since January and looked fully fit. Yet before Germany had even lifted the title, the RTE studio, Twitter, etc were falling over themselves to remind us just how badly injured Messi apparently had been all tournament. If he had MOTM matches and scored 2-3 goals vs the Dutch and Germans, we never even would have been given that narrative.

Argentina got to the final thanks to Mascherano first and foremost and it's really not a question (you can't lose a game without conceding any goals - Argentina conceded 0 in 7.5 hours of play), probably Garay most after that, then either Messi or Di Maria. Saying Messi 'dragged them to the final' is nothing short of completely incorrect. Saying Messi had the biggest influence on their team is completely incorrect. This has nothing to do with 'by their standards' - the 2/3 guys listed were simply better than Messi in that tournament, and were on the same team as him.

You might as well claim Mahrez 'dragged Leicester to the title' this year, it's completely false.

Dirty Dingus McGee

gimmick wrote: »

It all depends on your narrative when it comes to international football. George Best will always be remembered as an all time great despite never "doing it at a World Cup" because NI never qualified.

Messi though, despite winning 4 CLs, numerous leagues and cups as well as a slew of individual honours and records, captaining and dragging his country to a World Cup final will not be seen as an all time great because he hasn't won a world cup.



Messi was on the verge of following the likes of Deco and Ronaldinhos footsteps of self destruction under Rijkard. When Pep came in Messi was still a precocious young talent. Showed soem amazing flashes, but was not the finished article by any means.

Many also needs reminding that the Barca side of 2008 where Messi really stepped up had finished 2007/08 3rd. Xavi was on the verge of leaving. Busquets was an unknown. Etoo was a headcase who Pep couldn't get rid of. Pique was a Man Utd "reject". Perhaps Messi was the tide who rose all those ships?

But everyone says Johann Cryuff is an all time great (and rightly so) despite him never winning a World Cup either.

Winning a World Cup has a degree of luck involved the teams can't afford a slip in form at all and not have any injuries.If the world cup was played every year Argentina more than likely would have won by now but it's not so it doesn't give a true reflection of how good an international team has really been across a players career.

Giggsy11

I don't think world cup wins should be the criteria to decide whether Messi is GOAT or not. If that's the case then his GOAT status is decided by none other than the serial bottler Higuain. Still don't understand why they continue to play him (Higuain) when they have so many good strikers.

Anyways for me Messi is the best player I have seen. His ridiculous consistency for 8-10 seasons was just superb and he is just 29. For me he is the best player in the world, best dribbler, best passer and some of the passes he plays only he can play them.

captbarnacles

The MOST amazing thing about Ronaldo and Messi is that they are hailed as geniuses even though you can watch every single game the y play and their performance is analysed constantly. They have taken performance to a previously unknown level with consistent brilliance. It might be 20 years from now before people realise just how crazy their level is.

I saw a lot of Maradona and he had terrible games mixed with brilliance. Put it this way you could make a highlights reel from Ronaldo or Messi from half a season that would be Maradona's career highlights.

Messi still the best for me because he can beat a player from a standing start.

Billy86

captbarnacles wrote: »

The MOST amazing thing about Ronaldo and Messi is that they are hailed as geniuses even though you can watch every single game the y play and their performance is analysed constantly. They have taken performance to a previously unknown level with consistent brilliance. It might be 20 years from now before people realise just how crazy their level is.

I saw a lot of Maradona and he had terrible games mixed with brilliance. Put it this way you could make a highlights reel from Ronaldo or Messi from half a season that would be Maradona's career highlights.

I'm too young to have seen Maradona properly (born '86, his WC'94 coke roar is one of the only live memories I have of him playing) but this is something I have wondered about him and others. The WC is used as 'the' standard because it used to be when the world really was watching (since most other matches weren't even televised)... now the world is watching when it's a Wednesday evening in November. Some of the guys put up as demi-gods back then, most would only see them play a half dozen times (if even) every four years.

We see a player or two become an absolute star in the WC/EC more often than not, and quite often they are proven to not be as good as they looked, and just hit a great bit of form at the right moment (El Hadji Diouf was a good example, albeit an older one). It does make you wonder how someone like that would be viewed if things were still like they were in the 50s/60s, or how some of the guys on a pedestal for their World Cup performances would be viewed in this day and age (not so much the Beckenbauers or Pele's of the world though, as they got it done consistently at club level too - at least as far as the history books/trophy histories can tell us!).

Gbear

Billy86 wrote: »

How would they have never got out of the groups without him? He was absurd against Nigeria, but only played well for a 15 minute spell vs Bosnia and was completely invisible against bloody Iran up until the very end. Given the talent Argentina had in attacking positions, someone on the bench could have very conceivably had more of an impact than him over those two games.

His injury went unmentioned all tournament because it wasn't a factor, he had been back playing for Barca since January and looked fully fit. Yet before Germany had even lifted the title, the RTE studio, Twitter, etc were falling over themselves to remind us just how badly injured Messi apparently had been all tournament. If he had MOTM matches and scored 2-3 goals vs the Dutch and Germans, we never even would have been given that narrative.

Argentina got to the final thanks to Mascherano first and foremost and it's really not a question (you can't lose a game without conceding any goals - Argentina conceded 0 in 7.5 hours of play), probably Garay most after that, then either Messi or Di Maria. Saying Messi 'dragged them to the final' is nothing short of completely incorrect. Saying Messi had the biggest influence on their team is completely incorrect. This has nothing to do with 'by their standards' - the 2/3 guys listed were simply better than Messi in that tournament, and were on the same team as him.

You might as well claim Mahrez 'dragged Leicester to the title' this year, it's completely false.

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

He did score the winner in all the group games.

Their bench was nothing to write home about with Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria on the pitch most of the time and the likes of Tevez not travelling.

He clearly was injured as evidenced by him barely running and the tiny amount of ground he covered in each game.

It wasn't a masterclass. He was miles from his best. All he was capable of was flashes of what he usually produces.
I don't even really agree that he "dragged" them, whatever that means in a team sport, but he was their single most important player, scoring or creating nearly all of their goals.

Sometimes players have an impact over every blade of grass and every minute of the game. Some produce the moments that win you games. While it's good to have the former, you can't win without the latter and that's why it's so highly prized.

And in the whole Maradona Messi thing, we shouldn't forget that perhaps a player with genuine claims to be included in the GOAT bracket alongside Diego may have played his last international tonight.

Buffon.

Iused2likebusts

I just don't get the fascination with how a player performs over a 6 or 7 game stretch over the course of a month to judge whether a plAyer is a true great or not. Particularly when the standard of club football is higher.

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

And in the whole Maradona Messi thing, we shouldn't forget that perhaps a player with genuine claims to be included in the GOAT bracket alongside Diego may have played his last international tonight.

Buffon.

He's playing on until at least 2018.

Ulysses Gaze

The differences between Maradona and Messi and how great they are, on the pitch, are so small that they render this debate fruitless.

All I can say is that I have been privileged enough to see both play at their peaks.

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I just don't get the fascination with how a player performs over a 6 or 7 game stretch over the course of a month to judge whether a plAyer is a true great or not. Particularly when the standard of club football is higher.

True. We should include club achievements.

In the case of Maradona, we have to include the fact that he dragged Napoli to 2 titles (and no team from the entire south of Italy had ever won it before) as well as a UEFA Cup. It was, by any stretch, an extraordinary run at both club and international level. He was, in a way that Messi could never be when surrounded by World Cup and Euro winners like Xavi and Iniesta, an inspiration who made those around him better than they could ever hope to be without him.

Iused2likebusts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True. We should include club achievements.

In the case of Maradona, we have to include the fact that he dragged Napoli to 2 titles (and no team from the entire south of Italy had ever won it before) as well as a UEFA Cup. It was, by any stretch, an extraordinary run at both club and international level. He was, in a way that Messi could never be when surrounded by World Cup and Euro winners like Xavi and Iniesta, an inspiration who made those around him better than they could ever hope to be without him.

Ye his 10 league goals in the 86 87 season title winning season singlehandedly dragged them over the line.

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ye his 10 league goals in the 86 87 season title winning season singlehandedly dragged them over the line.

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

mickmackey1

There is also the question of style. I find Messi's short, rapid steps when in possession less artistic than Maradona's loping, expansive swagger. Messi keeps the ball as close as possible at all times, whereas Maradona tempted defenders with a morsel of possession before regaining control at the last instant, and then accelerating out of reach - usually with an evil change of direction. Purely a matter of personal preference I suppose.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

Maradona played 7 seasons in Italy and only once was he top scorer he was regularly outscored by fairly unfashionable names.

To put the argument back in Messi's favour he has only been outscored by future all time greats during his peak years.

2 great players but Messi's goalscoring record is of a different level to Maradono and you can't totally take the league into account as Messi is only beaten by greats whenever he plays Maradona wasn't.

Iused2likebusts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Even more remarkably for a player who was not played up front, he scored 15 the following season when Napoli finished 2nd, and was top scorer in Italy at a time when defences in that league were known for being fairly brutal.

Again, a challenge that Messi never had to face.

Football has changed it was more physical 30 years ago and suited maradonas physique. These days football is much quicker than it was 30 years ago and Maradona would have to adapt the same way messi would have to 30 years ago. No player these days has to face a brutal defence . Different challenges in different eras