Is this gas usage normal?

armabelle

We lived in an apartment in Ballsbridge for 3 months Feb - April 2016 and during our time there we had only two gas bills. The first bill was for around 30 euros for a period of around a month and the second bill was for nearly two months and was for 380 euros (this bill was our "closing off" bill). The apartment was really small so we were shocked to receive such a high bill from Bord Gais. This is especially weird since in the first month we were charged only 30 euros. Can anybody make sense out of this?

We didn't really change our usage so much and March was actually warmer than February so we would have used less heating. I can't understand this.

Can anybody help? What is a normal amount of usage for a small 50sqm apartment for two people in Ireland nowadays?

HeidiHeidi

Did you get readings for when you moved in and out?

I'd be guessing that the first bill was a (seriously under-) estimated bill, and the second one was the actual usage.

Seems very high for an apartment all the same.

If you don't have meter readings, though, you'll only ever be guessing.

tuisginideach

Presumably the first bill was estimated so it would really be 410 over a 3 month period. Still seems high enough but had you heating on all day?

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Did you get readings for when you moved in and out?

I'd be guessing that the first bill was a (seriously under-) estimated bill, and the second one was the actual usage.

Seems very high for an apartment all the same.

If you don't have meter readings, though, you'll only ever be guessing.

Thanks for getting back to me and for your questions. We did readings when we moved in and when we moved out but we did not do readings in the time between. The entire period was from 1st Feb until the 10th of April so the total was 2 months and 10 days to be precise.

Our reading when moving in was 03742
Our reading when moving out was 04357

The first "months" bill (it was actually less than a month from 1s Feb to 23rd Feb 2016) was like 30 euro and the period from 23rd Feb until 10 April was the big one.

After this breakdown can you see something odd about this? We had heating on during the days but not all day. We would use around 5 hours a day in total mainly morning and evening but we were home a lot so we would have used it a bit more than people that go to work all day.

I guess if someone could give me an idea of what you would expect to pay for a small apartment using the heating as we did then maybe I wouldn't feel like we have been ripped off somehow.

Oh and one more thing. The 1st reading was an estimate not an actual reading so nobody actually knows what the reading was on the 23rd of Feb.

L1011

The first estimate was wrong. You should have checked the reading yourself

You have been charged for your actual usage - no ripoff

HeidiHeidi

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to me and for your questions. We did readings when we moved in and when we moved out but we did not do readings in the time between. The entire period was from 1st Feb until the 10th of April so the total was 2 months and 10 days to be precise.

Our reading when moving in was 03742
Our reading when moving out was 04357

The first "months" bill (it was actually less than a month from 1s Feb to 23rd Feb 2016) was like 30 euro and the period from 23rd Feb until 10 April was the big one.

After this breakdown can you see something odd about this? We had heating on during the days but not all day. We would use around 5 hours a day in total mainly morning and evening.

I guess if someone could give me an idea of what you would expect to pay for a small apartment using the heating as we did then maybe I wouldn't feel like we have been ripped off somehow.

Oh and one more thing. The 1st reading was an estimate not an actual reading so nobody actually knows what the reading was on the 23rd of Feb.

There's your problem.

You've paid for the previous tenant's gas, I'm afraid. I very much doubt there's anything you can do about that now.

Always, always, always, get an ACTUAL reading when you move into a property and when you move out.

armabelle

tuisginideach wrote: »

Presumably the first bill was estimated so it would really be 410 over a 3 month period. Still seems high enough but had you heating on all day?

Yes! you are right. Should have mentioned that. The lady on the phone said that they estimate sometimes but if they estimate 30 euro for 23 days how can the real amount be 10 times that? What kind of an estimate is that?

We had heating on about 5 hours a day in total. 2 hours morning 2 hours evening and maybe 1 hour in the day

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

There's your problem.

You've paid for the previous tenant's gas, I'm afraid. I very much doubt there's anything you can do about that now.

Always, always, always, get an ACTUAL reading when you move into a property and when you move out.

sorry I wasn't clear. We did do a reading when we moved in. I stated the readings above. I think the confusion is that when I said "first reading" I meant the reading on the 23rd of Feb. So the reading of our first bill of 30 euros. They would have had our moving in reading as we gave it to them when we signed up. Do you understand me now?

HeidiHeidi

armabelle wrote: »

Yes! you are right. Should have mentioned that. The lady on the phone said that they estimate sometimes but if they estimate 30 euro for 23 days how can the real amount be 10 times that? What kind of an estimate is that?

We had heating on about 5 hours a day in total. 2 hours morning 2 hours evening and maybe 1 hour in the day

As far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this, but I'm sure I fell foul of it many years ago) when they provide estimates they do them on the basis of the similar period the previous year - so say a bill for Feb/Mar this year will be based on the bill for Feb/Mar last year.

I'm guessing the previous tenants to you used way more gas than the estimate allowed for, and when the reading was actually taken and the account corrected, you got stung for it.

ETA - sorry, we crossed posts there.

OK, so your first bill was based on an estimated reading?

Well that does seem like an inordinately high bill alright. I have gas heating and cooking in a 2-bed old house with high ceilings and some single glazed windows, and my bill averages about €100 or less for two months.

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

As far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this, but I'm sure I fell foul of it many years ago) when they provide estimates they do them on the basis of the similar period the previous year - so say a bill for Feb/Mar this year will be based on the bill for Feb/Mar last year.

I'm guessing the previous tenants to you used way more gas than the estimate allowed for, and when the reading was actually taken and the account corrected, you got stung for it.

don't you mean that they used much less than us. If they estimated 30 euro for February and that was based on 2015 then surely it would be much less than us since the whole 2 and a half month period was 380 euro. I can only guess that if this figure is indeed accurate then our Feb bill would be in the region of 100 euro or more.

HeidiHeidi

armabelle wrote: »

don't you mean that they used much less than us. If they estimated 30 euro for February and that was based on 2015 then surely it would be much less than us since the whole 2 and a half month period was 380 euro. I can only guess that if this figure is indeed accurate then our Feb bill would be in the region of 100 euro or more.

Well whoever was using the gas in Feb 2015 used far less than whoever was using it in 2016. So the estimate was way under.

But if you opened an account in your name when you moved in, how come the bill came so quickly? I thought they would put you straight on to two-monthly billing?

Anyway, in the end of the day, you have the reading from when you moved in and when you moved out. They're the numbers. That's the gas you used. All the costs (unit price, standing charges, VAT rate etc) are on the bills. You should be able to figure out if the bill is accurate (although I can't imagine that they'd make a calculation error tbh). Or you could ask the provider to double check that it was correctly calculated.

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

As far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this, but I'm sure I fell foul of it many years ago) when they provide estimates they do them on the basis of the similar period the previous year - so say a bill for Feb/Mar this year will be based on the bill for Feb/Mar last year.

I'm guessing the previous tenants to you used way more gas than the estimate allowed for, and when the reading was actually taken and the account corrected, you got stung for it.

ETA - sorry, we crossed posts there.

OK, so your first bill was based on an estimated reading?

Well that does seem like an inordinately high bill alright. I have gas heating and cooking in a 2-bed old house with high ceilings and some single glazed windows, and my bill averages about €100 or less for two months.

yes exactly, the first bill was on an estimated reading from 1st to 23rd Feb.

So ours is around 4 time what you pay...that is mad. What can I do about this? I wonder if someone plays with the meter readings?

wat24

Are you paying by direct debit? If not they apply a 300 euro deposit could it be that?

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Well whoever was using the gas in Feb 2015 used far less than whoever was using it in 2016. So the estimate was way under.

But if you opened an account in your name when you moved in, how come the bill came so quickly? I thought they would put you straight on to two-monthly billing?

Good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. I will get back to you and ask them. That is odd.

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Anyway, in the end of the day, you have the reading from when you moved in and when you moved out. They're the numbers. That's the gas you used. All the costs (unit price, standing charges, VAT rate etc) are on the bills. You should be able to figure out if the bill is accurate (although I can't imagine that they'd make a calculation error tbh). Or you could ask the provider to double check that it was correctly calculated.

Yes this is true...sad but true. Is it possible for anybody to change this amount? couldn't someone with the right incentive to do so just change the usage? I feel like a fool for not checking it on regular intervals as I am sure that this amount is not correct.

HeidiHeidi

Did you do the readings when you moved in and out? Or did you get them from someone?

Could it be that the previous tenants gave you a dodgy reading?

Can't see it being easy to tamper with a meter, tbh.

armabelle

wat24 wrote: »

Are you paying by direct debit? If not they apply a 300 euro deposit could it be that?

Direct debit

armabelle

L1011 wrote: »

The first estimate was wrong. You should have checked the reading yourself

You have been charged for your actual usage - no ripoff

Yes you are right . No rip off but I still would like somebody just to tell me that having heating in a 50sqm apartment for 5 hours a day costs 380 euro over a 2 and a half month period and that this is normal.

armabelle

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Did you do the readings when you moved in and out? Or did you get them from someone?

Could it be that the previous tenants gave you a dodgy reading?

Can't see it being easy to tamper with a meter, tbh.

we did a reading ourselves on the day of moving in

njs030

armabelle wrote: »

Yes you are right . No rip off but I still would like somebody just to tell me that having heating in a 50sqm apartment for 5 hours a day costs 380 euro over a 2 and a half month period and that this is normal.

That's equal to about one Euro per hour not including daily charges. I wouldn't find that a rip off.

You had it turned on for long periods of time, 2 hours twice a day in a small apartment must have been warm, the higher the temperature the more you were using too.

VincePP

armabelle wrote: »

Yes you are right . No rip off but I still would like somebody just to tell me that having heating in a 50sqm apartment for 5 hours a day costs 380 euro over a 2 and a half month period and that this is normal.

It could be 250, it could be 1000. Depends on many factors.

February, March and April were cold months.

Feb bill was estimated and possibly the apartment was not occupied the previous month, so rather than a reading you were charged just a standing charge and nominal useage.

Nightime and early morning temperatures in march were slightly lower than February - and these are the times most household heating was on. April has not been much better.

The temperature setting in the apartment also play a part. Many people set it at 21 - 22 degrees which is very warm. 19-20 degrees is more comfortable and would save 10% of energy useage.

If the boiler was not serviced in the previous 12-18 months, it would be inefficient and that's another circa 10% - 15% cost.

Age of boiler is another factor. Boilers installed in the last 5 years are very efficient - I changed mine last year (old one was from 2004) and my oil use had dropped dramatically.

Overall, 3 winter months heating at 5 hours a day (mostly early morning / late evening), outside mornign/ evening temps average 2 degrees for the period, for circa €400 is about ballpark especially if boiler is not recent and not serviced regularly.

It also looks like you were on a standard rate (by your figures a rate of 5.9c/unit was charged) - did you not shop around? A rate of 4.7c is available from Flogas. only difference is a different name on the bill.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/bord-gais-or-flogas-who-is-the-cheapest-for-gas.html

armabelle

VincePP wrote: »

It could be 250, it could be 1000. Depends on many factors.

February, March and April were cold months.

Feb bill was estimated and possibly the apartment was not occupied the previous month, so rather than a reading you were charged just a standing charge and nominal useage.

Nightime and early morning temperatures in march were slightly lower than February - and these are the times most household heating was on. April has not been much better.

The temperature setting in the apartment also play a part. Many people set it at 21 - 22 degrees which is very warm. 19-20 degrees is more comfortable and would save 10% of energy useage.

If the boiler was not serviced in the previous 12-18 months, it would be inefficient and that's another circa 10% - 15% cost.

Age of boiler is another factor. Boilers installed in the last 5 years are very efficient - I changed mine last year (old one was from 2004) and my oil use had dropped dramatically.

Overall, 3 winter months heating at 5 hours a day (mostly early morning / late evening), outside mornign/ evening temps average 2 degrees for the period, for circa €400 is about ballpark especially if boiler is not recent and not serviced regularly.

It also looks like you were on a standard rate (by your figures a rate of 5.9c/unit was charged) - did you not shop around? A rate of 4.7c is available from Flogas. only difference is a different name on the bill.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/bord-gais-or-flogas-who-is-the-cheapest-for-gas.html

Thanks for this... a lot to consider. We actually are using Flogas in our new house and I am now monitoring our usage carefully. We have been living in our new house for 18 days and so far have used 303 m3 of gas. I believe we have to multiply that by 11.3 or so to get our kwh usage and then multiply that by the rate Flogas charges right?

I want to know how much we are using so there are no surprises.

armabelle

notjustsweet wrote: »

That's equal to about one Euro per hour not including daily charges. I wouldn't find that a rip off.

You had it turned on for long periods of time, 2 hours twice a day in a small apartment must have been warm, the higher the temperature the more you were using too.

Ok so some say it is expensive others say it is normal. I guess I am back at the start then

armabelle

I checked that my meters use m3 when giving me a meter reading and I can see that my provider charges me 4.5 cents per Kwh. How do I convert from m3 to Kwh to see how much I have used so far in €?

Also does anybody know why the meters are in m3 and not in Kwh to save people the headache of converting and understanding these things?

thank you!

Tool here

http://utilitiessavings.co.uk/resources/gas-conversion-tool-convert-meter-readings-into-kwh/

ohnonotgmail

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to me and for your questions. We did readings when we moved in and when we moved out but we did not do readings in the time between. The entire period was from 1st Feb until the 10th of April so the total was 2 months and 10 days to be precise.

Our reading when moving in was 03742
Our reading when moving out was 04357

The first "months" bill (it was actually less than a month from 1s Feb to 23rd Feb 2016) was like 30 euro and the period from 23rd Feb until 10 April was the big one.

After this breakdown can you see something odd about this? We had heating on during the days but not all day. We would use around 5 hours a day in total mainly morning and evening but we were home a lot so we would have used it a bit more than people that go to work all day.

I guess if someone could give me an idea of what you would expect to pay for a small apartment using the heating as we did then maybe I wouldn't feel like we have been ripped off somehow.

Oh and one more thing. The 1st reading was an estimate not an actual reading so nobody actually knows what the reading was on the 23rd of Feb.

if those readings are correct then the bill sounds right.

Knockmealdown Shepherd

That bill is extortionate. I lived in a 2-bed apartment for 4 years in Belfast and we used a lot of heating and the bill was always 30- 50 a month.

I would guess that bill is for the previous tenants usage.

ohnonotgmail

Knockmealdown Shepherd wrote: »

That bill is extortionate. I lived in a 2-bed apartment for 4 years in Belfast and we used a lot of heating and the bill was always 30- 50 a month.

I would guess that bill is for the previous tenants usage.

the OP has included readings that they took when they moved in and when they moved out. they are not being charged for the previous tenants usage. the readings they have given match up with the bill they received.

Knockmealdown Shepherd

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Knockmealdown Shepherd wrote: »

That bill is extortionate. I lived in a 2-bed apartment for 4 years in Belfast and we used a lot of heating and the bill was always 30- 50 a month.

I would guess that bill is for the previous tenants usage.

the OP has included readings that they took when they moved in and when they moved out. they are not being charged for the previous tenants usage. the readings they have given match up with the bill they received.

Add your reply here.

It's still a crazy bill.
They must have been using some amount of gas.
We could have the heating on full time and it would never go over 50 pounds.
This was Belfast but I'd imagine it should not differ hugely.

lenoude

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks for this... a lot to consider. We actually are using Flogas in our new house and I am now monitoring our usage carefully. We have been living in our new house for 18 days and so far have used 303 m3 of gas. I believe we have to multiply that by 11.3 or so to get our kwh usage and then multiply that by the rate Flogas charges right?

I want to know how much we are using so there are no surprises.

That's correct, multiply them out and then by the unit rate, don't forget VAT too and the carbon tax.

Going by those figures based on 18 days usage, it would seem that it's in line with your gas bill at your previous property.

Based on the flogas standard rate excluding standing charge and carbon tax you're standing at roughly 196.42 currently.

That's me assuming you're using natural gas, LPG is a different unit price

ohnonotgmail

Knockmealdown Shepherd wrote: »

Add your reply here.

It's still a crazy bill.
They must have been using some amount of gas.
We could have the heating on full time and it would never go over 50 pounds.
This was Belfast but I'd imagine it should not differ hugely.

the bill isnt the problem , the usage is. Some people like living in a sauna.

Knockmealdown Shepherd

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Knockmealdown Shepherd wrote: »

Add your reply here.

It's still a crazy bill.
They must have been using some amount of gas.
We could have the heating on full time and it would never go over 50 pounds.
This was Belfast but I'd imagine it should not differ hugely.

the bill isnt the problem , the usage is. Some people like living in a sauna.

Yeah I see in another post the OP has used 303m3 in 18 days in their new house. That's unbelievably heavy usage. I have a 4-bed house with the heating on for about 5-6 hours a day and I use 100m3 a month