Children's hospital finally gets the go-ahead

BoatMad

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I will confess I paid very little attention, beyond the initial large concepts, to parking. I was more interested in ensuring that various departments would have enough space to grow and develop.

I will say this - car parks make money. Hospitals want money. Therefore the hospital would have done everything in it's power to create more car parking spaces. I think DCC have regulations to control car park building, I may be wrong.

these days planning trends to limit car parking , rather then encourage it

khamilto

BoatMad wrote: »

these days planning trends to limit car parking , rather then encourage it

DCC limited the entire site to 2,000 parking spaces max.

Godge

BoatMad wrote: »

OMG , you seem to know better then all the expert groups, that have consistently said it must be situated on the site of a major teaching hospital.

You ignore both satellite campuses that will be established at Taillight and Blanch

If you have a kid with "life limiting issues" you'd be blue lighted in anyway

If it was put outside your door , you'd be complaining

the problem in ireland is not the execution, its the moaners and groaners that spoil everything

In other countries the expert advice is to put it beside a maternity hospital. We are about to build a brand new national maternity hospital in Connolly, it would have made sense to put the childrens' hospital there.

BoatMad

Godge wrote: »

In other countries the expert advice is to put it beside a maternity hospital. We are about to build a brand new national maternity hospital in Connolly, it would have made sense to put the childrens' hospital there.

I know the advice was to situate the new maternity hospital on the grounds of a trauma hospital as is being done with Holles street

Im not aware of any expert advice that says you should have a maternity hospital co-located.

or maybe we should build one super hospital in mullingar :eek:

Podge_irl

Godge wrote: »

In other countries the expert advice is to put it beside a maternity hospital. We are about to build a brand new national maternity hospital in Connolly, it would have made sense to put the childrens' hospital there.

The new National Maternity Hospital is likely to be in St. Vincent's but its still up in the air.

khamilto

Godge wrote: »

In other countries the expert advice is to put it beside a maternity hospital. We are about to build a brand new national maternity hospital in Connolly, it would have made sense to put the childrens' hospital there.

We aren't building a national maternity hospital.

We are building three replacement maternity hospitals in Dublin, one of which is planned to be built in St James.

@Boatmad, trilocation is the holy grail. Adult teaching hospital, children's hospital and maternity hospital on one campus.

Rotunda > Connolly
Coombe > St James
Holles Street > St Vincents

Of those, I believe the Coombe is both the largest and busiest.

Podge_irl

BoatMad wrote: »

I know the advice was to situate the new maternity hospital on the grounds of a trauma hospital as is being done with Holles street

Im not aware of any expert advice that says you should have a maternity hospital co-located.

or maybe we should build one super hospital in mullingar :eek:

The advice was that primarily the NCH should be co-located with a university hospital. There was a preference for it also to be tri-located with a maternity hospital. The university hospital was the primary consideration though.

BoatMad

khamilto wrote: »

We aren't building a national maternity hospital.

We are building three replacement maternity hospitals in Dublin, one of which is planned to be built in St James.

@Boatmad, trilocation is the holy grail. Adult teaching hospital, children's hospital and maternity hospital on one campus.

which will exist at ST. James ,

bear1

Have I heard correctly that staff will be asked to pay for parking there?

Lavinia

Seems like the policy is to dishearten people from driving and forcing them to use a public transport as if the public transport is so great that there is no doubt that everyone would be so happy to use it :rolleyes:

BoatMad

Lavinia wrote: »

Seems like the policy is to dishearten people from driving and forcing them to use a public transport as if the public transport is so great that there is no doubt that everyone would be so happy to use it :rolleyes:

welcome to Owen Keegan land

bear1

BoatMad wrote: »

welcome to Owen Keegan land

More like welcome to Ireland. Only here would you charge employees who come to work by car.

khamilto

bear1 wrote: »

More like welcome to Ireland. Only here would you charge employees who come to work by car.

I can't imagine Hospitals located in London, Berlin or Paris offer all staff free parking.

Most city centre businesses offer parking only as a perk to senior staff, with junior staff only having the option of public transport or paying in a public car park.

This is certainly a strange topic to be faux-outraged over.

bear1

khamilto wrote: »

I can't imagine Hospitals located in London, Berlin or Paris offer all staff free parking.

Most city centre businesses offer parking only as a perk to senior staff, with junior staff only having the option of public transport or paying in a public car park.

This is certainly a strange topic to be faux-outraged over.

You would be if you had free parking before and now you would need to pay.
Or does it go against your everything is fantastic here policy?

Uriel.

bear1 wrote: »

You would be if you had free parking before and now you would need to pay.
Or does it go against your everything is fantastic here policy?

Bizarre - your argument against the location of the building of this hospital has slid to staff will have to pay for parking???
I'll take better clinical outcomes for children over the cost of staff parking any day.
But I will say that staff required to commute outside of normal public transport operating hours should have access to free or heavily discounted parking.

khamilto

bear1 wrote: »

You would be if you had free parking before and now you would need to pay.
Or does it go against your everything is fantastic here policy?

I parked in the housing estates around Crumlin Hospital until I moved to GCD and had to start cycling.

If I ever end up working in St. James, I'll be cycling.


Staff parking is a perk, not an entitlement. St James has already stated that shift/unsociable hours workers will be accommodated for parking as they already are in Crumlin.

bear1

Uriel. wrote: »

Bizarre - your argument against the location of the building of this hospital has slid to staff will have to pay for parking???
I'll take better clinical outcomes for children over the cost of staff parking any day.
But I will say that staff required to commute outside of normal public transport operating hours should have access to free or heavily discounted parking.

Sigh.. I posted that I had just heard it. I have the impression your reading skills aren't top notch.
I agree somewhat with your last sentence though.

Uriel.

bear1 wrote: »

Sigh.. I posted that I had just heard it. I have the impression your reading skills aren't top notch.
I agree somewhat with your last sentence though.

no you intimated that Ireland was some backwards country for charging "employees who come to work by car"

bear1

Uriel. wrote: »

no you intimated that Ireland was some backwards country for charging "employees who come to work by car"

Nope, I wasn't implying. I was saying that these things are typical for Ireland.
Stop looking for a stupid argument.

khamilto

bear1 wrote: »

Nope, I wasn't implying. I was saying that these things are typical for Ireland.
Stop looking for a stupid argument.

You said 'Only in ireland'.

He isn't looking for a stupid argument, he is pointing out the inconsistencies in yours.

bear1

There are no inconsistencies.
It has taken over 10 years to decide to build a hospital in a stupid location with idiotic access for anyone who has to go by car.
If you work at the hospital then you are charged for being there if you need to commute by car.
Why didn't they look at Blanchardstown? Why didn't they move it closer to the M50? Sell off the St. James' site and pool the funds together.
No, they decide to put it in an already cramped part of the city, they take away also cramped parking and are giving 400 spaces back.
Cronyism.

Uriel.

bear1 wrote: »

There are no inconsistencies.
It has taken over 10 years to decide to build a hospital in a stupid location with idiotic access for anyone who has to go by car.
If you work at the hospital then you are charged for being there if you need to commute by car.
Why didn't they look at Blanchardstown? Why didn't they move it closer to the M50? Sell off the St. James' site and pool the funds together.
No, they decide to put it in an already cramped part of the city, they take away also cramped parking and are giving 400 spaces back.
Cronyism.

It's like you only arrived in the thread or something.

BTW, where is the cronyism?

Allinall

bear1 wrote: »

There are no inconsistencies.
It has taken over 10 years to decide to build a hospital in a stupid location with idiotic access for anyone who has to go by car.
If you work at the hospital then you are charged for being there if you need to commute by car.
Why didn't they look at Blanchardstown? Why didn't they move it closer to the M50? Sell off the St. James' site and pool the funds together.
No, they decide to put it in an already cramped part of the city, they take away also cramped parking and are giving 400 spaces back.
Cronyism.

How is it cronyism?

Name someone who was involved in making this decision that stands to gain?

Also, they did look at the other locations you mentioned.

You're talking rubbish.

January

laserlad2010 wrote: »

As a Paediatric doctor I am absolutely delighted that this is getting the go ahead.

Very few posters, with the exception of Khamilto, have any concept of the clinical or operational requirements of a tertiary healthcare facility.

This site is the best we have. We have traded accessibility (somewhat) to gain invaluable advances in care afforded by a proximity to, amongst others, large cardiothoracic, surgical, orthopaedic, plastic surgery, anaesthetic departments. The advantage in having an obstetric facility, where newborn babies with acute gastrointestinal or cardiac abnormalities, which would usually carry a significant mortality rate if surgery is delayed, can be safely delivered and immediately transferred internally to undergo an operation, is also immeasurable.

Much of the required healthcare infrastructure is present at the James' site. It just needs to be expanded.

Parking is always an issue. It is an issue in the NHS, the HSE and further afield. It is not an issue in America because hospitals can charge patients exorbitant amounts to provide valets and adequate parking.

I have seen these plans. They are very impressive. It appears that we may, for once, have a hospital that can actually deal with the workload - as far as I can see. The reality may, in truth, be different.

I'm hopeful.

You're completely forgetting the key piece of information here is that there has been no planning application lodged for a maternity hospital on the same site! Planning may not even be granted for a maternity hospital at the same site, and again that just leads to more congestion, more parking issues, more problems.

Connolly really makes the best sense, the Rotunda has already had permission granted to build there, there is enough space to build, enough public transport to cover people travelling from the country, enough parking, enough extra space to build extra parent accommodation. Enough green space to build playgrounds and outdoor spaces for the children who need it. It's also located beside a major hospital.

I really don't get this decision at all, I think there will be serious problems once it is built. Why the need for sattelite's at Blanchardstown and Tallaght when the hospital is supposed to be the be all and end all to our problems? So children are admitted to these clinics, away from the main hospital, the consultants have to travel to see these children, taking them away from the children in the main hospital? Why?

Podge_irl

Connolly is much smaller and has nothing like the specialists available in James.

The site wasn't picked for the laugh! The primary consideration was co-locating with a large, university hospital with a lot of specialists available.

khamilto

Connolly has worse public transport and isn't one of the major teaching hospitals. Considering your signature, it's a shame that you failed to grasp the key reason for choosing St. James - co-location with a major teaching hospital.

I'm not aware of any of the reports commissioned that recommended Connolly. What is your qualification or experience that makes you believe that despite this, you and your pressure group know better as to what will grant the best outcomes for sick children?

If you have neither evidence, experience or qualifications to back up your statements - why are you so willing to sacrifice health outcomes because of your own personal opinion?

cyning

I come from Kerry to Crumlin with my 2 year old (and occasionally my 3.5 year old). It's a nightmare. The train isn't an option as bar the fact it would take longer it's also far more expensive... We make it to Crumlin with an already cranky 2 year old (so we need 2 of us so one of us can talk to the docs the other entertain her) and we queue along the road outside Crumlin in order to get in the gate to queue to get into the car park. How is this going to be improved on the James' site? We queued for 65 minutes one day.

What about kids who are there long term? A rooftop garden fair enough: is it big enough? Is there room for it to expand? Obviously not.

If in 20 years time it needs a new I don't know cardiology wing as there has been an explosion in kids with heart problems or something: is there room for it to expand?

I don't know all the answers. I'm just not sure this is the right way.

Podge_irl

cyning wrote: »

If in 20 years time it needs a new I don't know cardiology wing as there has been an explosion in kids with heart problems or something: is there room for it to expand?

I don't know all the answers. I'm just not sure this is the right way.

The cardiology specialists are in James...That's why its there.

Knine

khamilto wrote: »

One person's anecdotal experience vs google's thousands of data points gathered from people doing the trip daily?

Every parent who I know who like myself have children with very complex needs are totally against James. Also organisations who support these children. So it is not just my experiences. You seriously need to stop spouting about 'Google' & live in the real world & the reality of transporting these children to this hospital. Public Transport for many of us is simply not an option.

khamilto

How is this going to be improved on the James' site? W

As has been stated many times, it will have 4x the car parking spaces.

What about kids who are there long term? A rooftop garden fair enough

You can't build a large play area and then throw in kids together. That's a recipe for disaster. Sick children mixing with sick children is begging for communicable illnesses to be spread from children with weakened (or compromised) immune systems.

If we built large outdoor play areas as you and January seemed to suggest, we would have children dying as a result of that choice.

Hence why hospitals are designed and built by experts.

khamilto

Knine wrote: »

Every parent who I know who like myself have children with very complex needs are totally against James. Also organisations who support these children. So it is not just my experiences. You seriously need to stop spouting about 'Google' & live in the real world & the reality of transporting these children to this hospital. Public Transport for many of us is simply not an option.

Anecdotal experience vs empirical evidence, yet I'm spouting off and need to live in the 'real world' where Knine makes up figures to back up his argument?

Podge_irl

Knine wrote: »

Every parent who I know who like myself have children with very complex needs are totally against James.

Even if the standard of care is better than it would be in an isolated greenfield site?

January

Podge_irl wrote: »

The cardiology specialists are in James...That's why its there.

The PAEDIATRIC cardiology specialists are all in Crumlin at the moment though, so what's the point? The adult cardiology docs don't treat the child cardiology patients. Some of the surgeons have clinics in many hospitals though and AFAIR our leading child cardiothoracic surgeon Mr. Lars Nolke, works mostly from the Mater as well as Crumlin.

January

khamilto wrote: »

As has been stated many times, it will have 4x the car parking spaces.


You can't build a large play area and then throw in kids together. That's a recipe for disaster. Sick children mixing with sick children is begging for communicable illnesses to be spread from children with weakened (or compromised) immune systems.

If we built large outdoor play areas as you and January seemed to suggest, we would have children dying as a result of that choice.

Hence why hospitals are designed and built by experts.

Crumlin already has play area's for the children attending... are they wrong in that? What about play rooms? They shouldn't be there either huh? Kids who need to be isolated will still be in isolation, just like they are now.

Knine

Podge_irl wrote: »

Even if the standard of care is better than it would be in an isolated greenfield site?

Who says the standard of care is going to be better. The standard of care received in Temple Street is excellent. Why would Connolly with the Rotunda next to it be any worse?

Lavinia

khamilto wrote: »

Hence why hospitals are designed and built by experts.

If once more I read in your posts the word "experts" I'm gonna vomit :rolleyes:

It feels like someone's paying you to write these lol

January

khamilto wrote: »

Connolly has worse public transport and isn't one of the major teaching hospitals. Considering your signature, it's a shame that you failed to grasp the key reason for choosing St. James - co-location with a major teaching hospital.

I'm not aware of any of the reports commissioned that recommended Connolly. What is your qualification or experience that makes you believe that despite this, you and your pressure group know better as to what will grant the best outcomes for sick children?

If you have neither evidence, experience or qualifications to back up your statements - why are you so willing to sacrifice health outcomes because of your own personal opinion?

It has public transport on par with the St. James site. It doesn't have the LUAS, but it has many major bus routes travelling along the N3.

The group I support (not my group, nor a pressure group, it certainly isn't pressuring anybody except the government anyway), is run by expert medical professionals who are against the St. Jame's site for all the same reasons as many of the parents who have to use the facilities are.

gctest50

Knine wrote: »

Who says the standard of care is going to be better. The standard of care received in Temple Street is excellent. Why would Connolly with the Rotunda next to it be any worse?

Whatever about the location, they might want to bulldoze the old influence out it first

before you've any more of this :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/savita-halappanavar-abortion-midwife

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/catholic-church-s-influence-over-irish-hospital-medicine-persists-1.2626856

The mission of St Vincent’s is described as being: “To bring the healing love of Christ to all we serve.” The first core value is “human dignity respecting the sacredness of human life and the dignity and uniqueness of each person”.
Nuns are on the board of directors and doctors must sign contracts promising adherence to the ethos of the hospital.

khamilto

January wrote: »

Crumlin already has play area's for the children attending... are they wrong in that? What about play rooms? They shouldn't be there either huh? Kids who need to be isolated will still be in isolation, just like they are now.

Each play area is ward specific. Wow, you sure got me - a ward specific play room sure is the same as large general outdoor play areas.


It also doesn't have public transport on par with the St James site. St James has Heuston, red line luas and far more frequent bus routes. In no realm is Connolly as well connected by public transport and I genuinely can't understand how you can argue with a straight face that it is.


P.S. 3 Consultants = expert group on hospital planning and design? Or the founder of a charity who spend most of his life working with horses? Uhh... Seriously, go read the many reports already produced on where/how the NCH should be built. Go read any of the tens of reports on best practices in creating/designing a new children's hospital.

Podge_irl

Knine wrote: »

Who says the standard of care is going to be better. The standard of care received in Temple Street is excellent. Why would Connolly with the Rotunda next to it be any worse?

The standard of care is not a reflection on those working there. It is simply more advantageous to have ready access to a huge number of specialist units in a large, university hospital.

Connolly is not a hospital on the same scale as James' at all and doesn't really have much in the way of specialities. James' is a centre of excellence for a number of things.

Knine

January wrote: »

It has public transport on par with the St. James site. It doesn't have the LUAS, but it has many major bus routes travelling along the N3.

The group I support (not my group, nor a pressure group, it certainly isn't pressuring anybody except the government anyway), is run by expert medical professionals who are against the St. Jame's site for all the same reasons as many of the parents who have to use the facilities are.

Having stayed in Temple Street for weeks at a time with a very sick child I would have been delighted to have Blanchardstown Shopping Centre only a few minutes drive to get proper food & supplies. Somehow I don't find James St area as inviting.

It amazes me how people using google instead of real life experiences can refute what the parents who use these facilities much more then the norm are saying.

Podge_irl

January wrote: »

It has public transport on par with the St. James site. It doesn't have the LUAS, but it has many major bus routes travelling along the N3.

St James has bus, luas and rail connections. It is not remotely on par.

Judge Trudy

I don't see why Dublin had to get the children's hospital or why there aren't at least other modern paediatric hospitals being built in other parts of the country. Children get sick in other parts of the country too unfortunately. As usual Dublin is getting all of the services. There are other population hubs in Ireland!

January

khamilto wrote: »

Each play area is ward specific. Wow, you sure got me - a ward specific play room sure is the same as large general outdoor play areas.


It also doesn't have public transport on par with the St James site. St James has Heuston, red line luas and far more frequent bus routes. In no realm is Connolly as well connected by public transport.

Each area at Connolly could be ward specific too! There are outdoor areas in Crumlin to play also, so don't play that card. I never said a large 'general' outdoor play area, I just said an outdoor play area.

Public transport won't be such an issue anyway, the majority of parents travel to the hospital in their own cars for outpatient appointments. Personally I use public transport but I still have to get two busses to Crumlin so it'll be the same for me to St. James if it is built there.

khamilto

It amazes me how people using google instead of real life experiences can refute what the parents who use these facilities much more then the norm are saying.

You're making stuff up and many people have chimed in on how laughably unrealistic your 'journey times' are, as well as me pointing out that google's data which is a far better measure of travel times, proves you to be completely wrong in everything you have said re: commuting.

January

Podge_irl wrote: »

St James has bus, luas and rail connections. It is not remotely on par.

If you want to nit pick, Castleknock train station is the same distance to Connolly as Heuston is to St. James and the Sligo train could stop there if Irish Rail were smart enough. :rolleyes:

khamilto

January wrote: »

Each area at Connolly could be ward specific too! There are outdoor areas in Crumlin to play also, so don't play that card. I never said a large 'general' outdoor play area, I just said an outdoor play area.

Public transport won't be such an issue anyway, the majority of parents travel to the hospital in their own cars for outpatient appointments. Personally I use public transport but I still have to get two busses to Crumlin so it'll be the same for me to St. James if it is built there.

Firstly, you said:

Enough green space to build playgrounds and outdoor spaces for the children who need it.

Which to me very much indicates that you did not mean small, self contained play areas.

Secondly, you have gone from saying 'Connolly has as good public transport as St James so they should build in Connolly' to 'Public transport won't be such an issue'.

That's pretty disingenuous.

Podge_irl

Judge Trudy wrote: »

I don't see why Dublin had to get the children's hospital or why there aren't at least other modern paediatric hospitals being built in other parts of the country. Children get sick in other parts of the country too unfortunately. As usual Dublin is getting all of the services. There are other population hubs in Ireland!

Because many, many more of them get sick in Dublin? Because (rightly or wrongly) all transport infrastructure is radial from Dublin? Because the largest number of medical schools are in Dublin? Because the easiest place to attract doctors to work is Dublin?

Podge_irl

January wrote: »

If you want to nit pick, Castleknock train station is the same distance to Connolly as Heuston is to St. James and the Sligo train could stop there if Irish Rail were smart enough. :rolleyes:

Heuston is the primary train station for all trains into Dublin. It is also on a tram line from the other main station. It is not nitpicking to suggest it is significantly better connected than Connolly.

khamilto

January wrote: »

If you want to nit pick, Castleknock train station is the same distance to Connolly as Heuston is to St. James and the Sligo train could stop there if Irish Rail were smart enough. :rolleyes:

The Sligo to Dublin route is the same as the Waterford, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Limerick and Kerry routes that stop at Heuston?

It's hardly nitpicking to point out that a train line that covers the majority of the country is superior to one that covers a narrow sparse corridor between Dublin and Sligo.