Children's hospital finally gets the go-ahead

Judge Trudy · 28-04-2016 5:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because many, many more of them get sick in Dublin? Because (rightly or wrongly) all transport infrastructure is radial from Dublin? Because the largest number of medical schools are in Dublin? Because the easiest place to attract doctors to work is Dublin?

If you take this attitude to all of the above then no where else is going to progress and develop. There are already 2 paediatric hospitals in Dublin and one large hospital with a large paediatric ward. Completely unjust in my opinion. My sister is a paediatric nurse and would love to leave Dublin but the services are far too centralised and it's a disgrace.

January · 28-04-2016 5:30pm

khamilto wrote: »

Firstly, you said:

Which to me very much indicates that you did not mean small, self contained play areas.

Secondly, you have gone from saying 'Connolly has as good public transport as St James so they should build in Connolly' to 'Public transport won't be such an issue'.

That's pretty disingenuous.

It indicates to you, doesn't mean that's what I meant.

It's not disingenuous. How many parents do you know who use public transport to get to their kids hospital appointments? Of all the parents I know in my support group probably less than 5% travel via public transport.

khamilto · 28-04-2016 5:32pm

January wrote: »

It indicates to you, doesn't mean that's what I meant.

It's not disingenuous. How many parents do you know who use public transport to get to their kids hospital appointments? Of all the parents I know in my support group probably less than 5% travel via public transport.

It's disingenuous because you stated something that was completely untrue, and when you were called on it you said 'it doesn't matter' and changed the goalposts.

It (hopefully) shows everyone just exactly how much weight we should put on your views, when you're so willing to be wrong and then abandon them as being unimportant in the first place.

Knine · 28-04-2016 5:33pm

khamilto wrote: »

You're making stuff up and many people have chimed in on how laughably unrealistic your 'journey times' are, as well as me pointing out that google's data which is a far better measure of travel times, proves you to be completely wrong in everything you have said re: commuting.

Making stuff up? LOL I am the parent of a child with Complex Medical Needs, I travel to Temple Street several times a month. The organisations looking after these children agree with me. Since when were 'You' many people? Nope you are just one individual who clearly has no idea of what it is like for those of us who have to use these hospitals on a regular basis. You are singing the same tune over & over again. You need to step away from Google

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 5:34pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

If you take this attitude to all of the above then no where else is going to progress and develop. There are already 2 paediatric hospitals in Dublin and one large hospital with a large paediatric ward. Completely unjust in my opinion. My sister is a paediatric nurse and would love to leave Dublin but the services are far too centralised and it's a disgrace.

And they're shutting down some of the current paediatric hospitals and creating a new national paediatric hospital. It's not like they're lumping even more capacity into Dublin.

I am all for progressing other places and other cities certainly should have proper paediatric facilities (be it wards or hospitals). Of course for serious cases they're always going to end up back in Dublin.

khamilto · 28-04-2016 5:34pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

If you take this attitude to all of the above then no where else is going to progress and develop. There are already 2 paediatric hospitals in Dublin and one large hospital with a large paediatric ward. Completely unjust in my opinion. My sister is a paediatric nurse and would love to leave Dublin but the services are far too centralised and it's a disgrace.

Centralisation of specialist services saves lives. That is unequivocal and unquestioned by researchers and academics.

You are effectively saying that saving lives is a disgrace, because you don't like Dublin.

Wonderful.

January · 28-04-2016 5:37pm

khamilto wrote: »

It's disingenuous because you stated something that was completely untrue, and when you were called on it you said 'it doesn't matter' and changed the goalposts.

It (hopefully) shows everyone just exactly how much weight we should put on your views, when you're so willing to be wrong and then abandon them as being unimportant in the first place.

I'm not abandoning them as being unimportant, I'm saying they're not as important for many parents bringing their children to hospital appointments. Also, nobody should put weight behind my views as I'm just a parent, I'm not a medical expert. Thankfully!

I'm a parent who has several children, some with varying medical conditons, who thinks that the worst place in Ireland for the new national children's hospital is St. Jame's. I don't care if it's built at Connolly, if it's built at Tallaght, or Citywest, or even in fecking Balbriggan or as far north as Drogheda or as far west as Athlone or as far south as fecking Portlaoise as long as it's not St. James because it's not the best place for it, in my view, as a parent of a sick child.

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 5:41pm

January wrote: »

I'm a parent who has several children, some with varying medical conditons, who thinks that the worst place in Ireland for the new national children's hospital is St. Jame's. I don't care if it's built at Connolly, if it's built at Tallaght, or Citywest, or even in fecking Balbriggan or as far north as Drogheda or as far west as Athlone or as far south as fecking Portlaoise as long as it's not St. James because it's not the best place for it, in my view, as a parent of a sick child.

St. James is not a great place to drive to. No one is arguing that.

Deciding where to locate the hospital was not done in isolation. It was decided that the most important things was having the childrens hospital co-located with a large teaching hospital with a large number of specialist centres, and research and training centres. Because that will deliver the best care.

Driving to Great Ormond Street Hospital must be next to impossible. Doesn't stop it being one of the best children's hospitals in the world.

smash · 28-04-2016 5:41pm

khamilto wrote: »

You are effectively saying that saving lives is a disgrace, because you don't like Dublin.

It's not what they were saying. You've used the same tactics now on several posters including myself. What you're doing is putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la". A medical profession on newstalk just 30 minutes ago stated that centralisation is great, but that James' Hospital is the wrong location in his opinion.

Judge Trudy · 28-04-2016 5:42pm

khamilto wrote: »

Centralisation of specialist services saves lives. That is unequivocal and unquestioned by researchers and academics.

You are effectively saying that saving lives is a disgrace, because you don't like Dublin.

Wonderful.

I never said I didn't like Dublin?? I'm saying spread services around the country and be fair to every citizen of this country. If God forbid my daughter gets critically ill, travelling for 5 hours ain't going to save her life. From what seen when children get sick and need urgent treatment, adding travelling and expense to an already extremely traumatic experience, adds huge stress to everyone involved. Hardly fair.

Uriel. · 28-04-2016 5:45pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

I never said I didn't like Dublin?? I'm saying spread services around the country and be fair to every citizen of this country. If God forbid my daughter gets critically ill, travelling for 5 hours ain't going to save her life. From what seen when children get sick and need urgent treatment, adding travelling and expense to an already extremely traumatic experience, adds huge stress to everyone involved. Hardly fair.

If anyone's child became critically ill they'd be likely going to the nearest hospital in the first instance, not necessarily straight up to a national paediatric hospital

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 5:45pm

There are A&Es in other parts of the country...

January · 28-04-2016 5:46pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

St. James is not a great place to drive to. No one is arguing that.

Deciding where to locate the hospital was not done in isolation. It was decided that the most important things was having the childrens hospital co-located with a large teaching hospital with a large number of specialist centres, and research and training centres. Because that will deliver the best care.

Driving to Great Ormond Street Hospital must be next to impossible. Doesn't stop it being one of the best children's hospitals in the world.

And the experts that support the Connolly hospital site say that the most important thing is co-location with a maternity hospital not co-location with an adult hospital. I know which experts I'd trust.

Uriel. · 28-04-2016 5:46pm

January wrote: »

I'm not abandoning them as being unimportant, I'm saying they're not as important for many parents bringing their children to hospital appointments. Also, nobody should put weight behind my views as I'm just a parent, I'm not a medical expert. Thankfully!

I'm a parent who has several children, some with varying medical conditons, who thinks that the worst place in Ireland for the new national children's hospital is St. Jame's. I don't care if it's built at Connolly, if it's built at Tallaght, or Citywest, or even in fecking Balbriggan or as far north as Drogheda or as far west as Athlone or as far south as fecking Portlaoise as long as it's not St. James because it's not the best place for it, in my view, as a parent of a sick child.

And it's precisely why such stakeholders are not decision makers in these matters.

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 5:48pm

January wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

St. James is not a great place to drive to. No one is arguing that.

Deciding where to locate the hospital was not done in isolation. It was decided that the most important things was having the childrens hospital co-located with a large teaching hospital with a large number of specialist centres, and research and training centres. Because that will deliver the best care.

Driving to Great Ormond Street Hospital must be next to impossible. Doesn't stop it being one of the best children's hospitals in the world.

And the experts that support the Connolly hospital site say that the most important thing is co-location with a maternity hospital not co-location with an adult hospital. I know which experts I'd trust.

Why exactly are they more trustworthy? There are still plans for a maternity hospital on the James site.

And collocation with a maternity hospital is surely for the benefit of the maternity hospital not the children's hospital. What difference does a maternity hospital make to a 5 year old!?

Uriel. · 28-04-2016 5:52pm

January wrote: »

And the experts that support the Connolly hospital site say that the most important thing is co-location with a maternity hospital not co-location with an adult hospital. I know which experts I'd trust.

It seems that you are effectively saying that the various experts involved in recommending first the mater and then SJH as the best location, had some ulterior motive?

What is the motive, other than genuinely assessing SJH as the better location, all things considered? You can't trust all these experts? Why, what do you think they are gaining? Consultancy jobs? Brown envelopes?

Knine · 28-04-2016 5:52pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why exactly are they more trustworthy? There are still plans for a maternity hospital on the James site.

And collocation with a maternity hospital is surely for the benefit of the maternity hospital not the children's hospital. What difference does a maternity hospital make to a 5 year old!?

Have you ever had a very sick newborn? My daughter was still going to the Rotunda for several years after she was born.

January · 28-04-2016 5:53pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why exactly are they more trustworthy? There are still plans for a maternity hospital on the James site.

And collocation with a maternity hospital is surely for the benefit of the maternity hospital not the children's hospital. What difference does a maternity hospital make to a 5 year old!?

There are plans, whereas Connolly has concrete planning for a maternity hospital. What happens if the planning permission for the Coombe is not granted?

And no, it's not for the benefit of the maternity hospital! What a ludicrous thing to say, it's for the benefit of the children being born in the maternity hospital that need to be immediately transported to the paediatric hospital for urgent care.

What difference does an adult hospital make to a 5 year old? Any of the specialists that work in Crumlin or Temple St all work out of many of the different Dublin adult hospitals, some from the Mater, some from St. Jame's, some from Beaumont even some from Connolly. Some of them are even specific to the children's hospitals such as the paed cardio specialists. So it's not like they'll all just work out of Jame's anyhow if they already run clinics in the Mater.

Judge Trudy · 28-04-2016 5:54pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are A&Es in other parts of the country...

And? I know two children from my area who are receiving chemo at the moment. My nearest general hospital cannot provide this treatment to them so they're going to Dublin. Their parents drive them a 10 hour round trip every week for the foreseeable future. It really infuriates me no end that those little children are in already in pain and have to sit in the back of a car for that length of time, not to mention the stress of looking for nearby expensive accommodation if the hospital cannot help then out. Absolutely shameful.

Spanish Eyes · 28-04-2016 6:01pm

The HSE bought the Unilever site on Davitt Road. Apparently for a new ambulance base.

The Construction workers will be using it as a depot during construction of the NCH. It is about 14 acres.

I'd say that's where the new Coombe will go. Then all three components will be within shouting distance.

Have a peep...

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2013/09/23/hse-buys-site-near-st-jamess-hospital/

The site is to the far right of SJH. It is the cleared site directly to the right about 1.5k away to the West.

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lucan,+Co.+Dublin/@53.3687531,-6.3239636,3256a,20y,159.82h,44.3t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48677369938c80c3:0xa00c7a99731aae0

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Davitt+Rd,+Inchicore,+Dublin/@53.3340229,-6.3226376,396m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670c5eee94e9a7:0xf1e96a4b8e0d1271

LeinsterDub · 28-04-2016 6:05pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are A&Es in other parts of the country...

And? I know two children from my area who are receiving chemo at the moment. My nearest general hospital cannot provide this treatment to them so they're going to Dublin. Their parents drive them a 10 hour round trip every week for the foreseeable future. It really infuriates me no end that those little children are in already in pain and have to sit in the back of a car for that length of time, not to mention the stress of looking for nearby expensive accommodation if the hospital cannot help then out. Absolutely shameful.

What would you suggest we do? Even a Midlands hospital wouldn't take that much time of the journey

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 6:05pm

January wrote: »

And no, it's not for the benefit of the maternity hospital! What a ludicrous thing to say, it's for the benefit of the children being born in the maternity hospital that need to be immediately transported to the paediatric hospital for urgent care.

What difference does an adult hospital make to a 5 year old? Any of the specialists that work in Crumlin or Temple St all work out of many of the different Dublin adult hospitals, some from the Mater, some from St. Jame's, some from Beaumont even some from Connolly. Some of them are even specific to the children's hospitals such as the paed cardio specialists. So it's not like they'll all just work out of Jame's anyhow if they already run clinics in the Mater.

Poorly phrased on my part but I meant the benefit to the users of said hospital. Hopefully that influences the application for the maternity hospital at James'.

I'm aware they don't all work out of James. Indeed I believe the cardio specialist centre being the Mater is why it is was first picked. James has a wide breadth of specialist services however and has a large research center. The idea to co-locate wasn't exactly plucked out of nowhere.

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 6:09pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are A&Es in other parts of the country...

And? I know two children from my area who are receiving chemo at the moment. My nearest general hospital cannot provide this treatment to them so they're going to Dublin. Their parents drive them a 10 hour round trip every week for the foreseeable future. It really infuriates me no end that those little children are in already in pain and have to sit in the back of a car for that length of time, not to mention the stress of looking for nearby expensive accommodation if the hospital cannot help then out. Absolutely shameful.

It's incredibly unfortunate and I have sympathy. But they get better care from a centralised specialist centre than they would from smaller regional Centres.

The lack of provision in regional locations has a lot of reasons behind it. Some budgetary, some geography. Perhaps there should be more provision of some services in regional areas. A national centre of excellence is always going to be in Dublin though.

Judge Trudy · 28-04-2016 6:13pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What would you suggest we do? Even a Midlands hospital wouldn't take that much time of the journey

From what my sister is saying, the paediatric hospitals in Dublin are already at boiling point as it is. Increase paediatric services in every general hospital in the country. Better access for everyone!

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 6:14pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What would you suggest we do? Even a Midlands hospital wouldn't take that much time of the journey

From what my sister is saying, the paediatric hospitals in Dublin are already at boiling point as it is. Increase paediatric services in every general hospital in the country. Better access for everyone!

Better access and worse outcomes.

January · 28-04-2016 6:15pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The HSE bought the Unilever site on Davitt Road. Apparently for a new ambulance base.

The Construction workers will be using it as a depot during construction of the NCH. It is about 14 acres.

I'd say that's where the new Coombe will go. Then all three components will be within shouting distance.

Have a peep...

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2013/09/23/hse-buys-site-near-st-jamess-hospital/

The site is to the far right of SJH. It is the cleared site directly to the right about 1.5k away to the West.

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lucan,+Co.+Dublin/@53.3687531,-6.3239636,3256a,20y,159.82h,44.3t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48677369938c80c3:0xa00c7a99731aae0

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Davitt+Rd,+Inchicore,+Dublin/@53.3340229,-6.3226376,396m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670c5eee94e9a7:0xf1e96a4b8e0d1271

Soooo we're talking how many years to build the NCH at St. James? 4? More? Then time to make the site at Davitt Road ready to construct on, and then build the maternity hospital, another 4 years? So meanwhile, we'll have another 8 years of using the already over crowded, under facilitated Coombe hospital, and a perfectly good maternity hospital out in Blanchardstown where they could construct the NCH on the same timeline.

January · 28-04-2016 6:18pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Poorly phrased on my part but I meant the benefit to the users of said hospital. Hopefully that influences the application for the maternity hospital at James'.

I'm aware they don't all work out of James. Indeed I believe the cardio specialist centre being the Mater is why it is was first picked. James has a wide breadth of specialist services however and has a large research center. The idea to co-locate wasn't exactly plucked out of nowhere.

I know the idea to co-locate wasn't plucked out of nowhere, I get that entirely. But what is wrong with co-locating it with Connolly and the Rotunda? Apart from the research centre and apart from transport (which is not a MAJOR setback in Connolly) what differences are there? AFAIR Connolly is used as a teaching hospital as part of DCU's nursing program also.

Judge Trudy · 28-04-2016 6:22pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Better access and worse outcomes.

How though? The children I know who are receiving chemo treatment in Dublin were already waiting too long for this treatment, obviously allowing their condition to exasperate. Why put them on a longer waiting list 200 miles down the road. My local general hospital doesn't even have a gynaecologist at the moment!

Corruptedmorals · 28-04-2016 6:25pm

I'm surprised at the comments about locating it in the midlands/west. How would it be staffed? The children's hospitals have a critical shortage of specialists, several are below half of the recommended amount per population. Some of the waiting lists are years long and at least 2 have had to be closed to new referrals.

I hope the hospital location is a resounding success. Having worked in Crumlin hospital it needed to be knocked down 20 years ago, although the new buildings are great.

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 6:27pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

How though? The children I know who are receiving chemo treatment in Dublin were already waiting too long for this treatment, obviously allowing their condition to exasperate. Why put them on a longer waiting list 200 miles down the road. My local general hospital doesn't even have a gynaecologist at the moment!

Because regional hospitals, the world over, have worse outcomes than specialist units. This is nobody's fault - an oncologist who sees 200 cases of childhood leukaemia a year will be better at treating it than one who sees 5.

I don't know the ins and outs of it. It seems weird to me that basic chemo can't be done locally but I'm assuming (potentially incorrectly) that there is a reason. There is absolutely a funding element to this as well - waiting lists won't get shorter in general if resources are simply moved from one place to another. We don't have the population to sustain multiple centres of excellence for some stuff (hell, the UK centralises as well for example) and unfortunately for many people the most logical and best place to put those centres is Dublin.

Podge_irl · 28-04-2016 6:34pm

January wrote: »

I know the idea to co-locate wasn't plucked out of nowhere, I get that entirely. But what is wrong with co-locating it with Connolly and the Rotunda? Apart from the research centre and apart from transport (which is not a MAJOR setback in Connolly) what differences are there? AFAIR Connolly is used as a teaching hospital as part of DCU's nursing program also.

Connolly is simply not even remotely on the same scale as James (in terms of size, number of specialities, research or teaching) It would be better than nothing in this context obviously but it is most definitely a level below James/Mater.

Whether that difference is enough to override the transport concerns is (clearly) up for debate. Perhaps that is wrong, but the choice of James' is certainly not ludicrous. There is sound thinking and logic behind it and essentially the only problem with it is that it can be difficult to drive to at time.

cardinal tetra · 28-04-2016 6:42pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The HSE bought the Unilever site on Davitt Road. Apparently for a new ambulance base.

The Construction workers will be using it as a depot during construction of the NCH. It is about 14 acres.

I'd say that's where the new Coombe will go. Then all three components will be within shouting distance.

Have a peep...

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2013/09/23/hse-buys-site-near-st-jamess-hospital/

The site is to the far right of SJH. It is the cleared site directly to the right about 1.5k away to the West.

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lucan,+Co.+Dublin/@53.3687531,-6.3239636,3256a,20y,159.82h,44.3t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48677369938c80c3:0xa00c7a99731aae0

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Davitt+Rd,+Inchicore,+Dublin/@53.3340229,-6.3226376,396m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670c5eee94e9a7:0xf1e96a4b8e0d1271

Why cant the new coombe go where the old coombe is.

Why cant it go in the crumlin space that is vacated by this new hospital.

Why in gods name would you need a 14 acre site for an ambulance service.

they should put modular housing on it for the craic and then watch as said modular housing is burned down by its own residents like they do with all the other crap housing in the area.

January · 28-04-2016 6:46pm

cardinal tetra wrote: »

Why cant the new coombe go where the old coombe is.

Why cant it go in the crumlin space that is vacated by this new hospital.

Why in gods name would you need a 14 acre site for an ambulance service.

they should put modular housing on it for the craic and then watch as said modular housing is burned down by its own residents like they do with all the other crap housing in the area.

Because the children's hospital needs to be co-located with a maternity hospital.

LordSutch · 28-04-2016 6:50pm

bear1 wrote: »

Children's hospital finally gets the go-ahead.

In the wrong location . . . . :cool:
Absolutely crazy location, as things weren't congested & cramped enough.

LeinsterDub · 28-04-2016 7:00pm

Judge Trudy wrote: »

. Better access for everyone!

And poorer quality of health care

gladrags · 28-04-2016 7:04pm

BoatMad wrote: »

OMG , you seem to know better then all the expert groups, that have consistently said it must be situated on the site of a major teaching hospital.

You ignore both satellite campuses that will be established at Taillight and Blanch

If you have a kid with "life limiting issues" you'd be blue lighted in anyway

If it was put outside your door , you'd be complaining

the problem in ireland is not the execution, its the moaners and groaners that spoil everything

The expert groups spent around 50 million,fiddling around on the expert Mater site.

The idea of a new childrens hospital has been mooted since the late 1980's,and all the expert groups have failed since then.

Temple st goes back to the 19th century structirally,and truth be told we should have at the very least,four childrens hodpitals in the country.

If we had our priorites right.

Nurses and mediical staff,have I am sure,many valid reasons for doubting and questioning the proposed new hospital,after so many false dawns,for the children that is.

January · 28-04-2016 7:06pm

LordSutch wrote: »

In the wrong location . . . . :cool:
Absolutely crazy location, as things weren't congested & cramped enough.

Ah no sure it's grand, we've figured that one out already! There's a train station close by and busses go past it and so does the LUAS! It'll be grand like, sure it's quicker to get to St. Jame's from Dublin 15 than it is to get to Temple St, that's now before the hospital is built and before the traffic doubles in capacity, and did they mention, there's going to be 4x more parking spaces!!!!!

bear1 · 28-04-2016 7:31pm

LordSutch wrote: »

In the wrong location . . . . :cool:
Absolutely crazy location, as things weren't congested & cramped enough.

January wrote: »

Ah no sure it's grand, we've figured that one out already! There's a train station close by and busses go past it and so does the LUAS! It'll be grand like, sure it's quicker to get to St. Jame's from Dublin 15 than it is to get to Temple St, that's now before the hospital is built and before the traffic doubles in capacity, and did they mention, there's going to be 4x more parking spaces!!!!!

Ah yeah but won't you think of the benef... oh wait.

Anita Blow · 28-04-2016 8:20pm

As someone who has worked in St James', Crumlin and other paeds facilities, I think it's a great decision. There's no doubting that traffic is a potential issue, but it's not an insurmountable one. The fact of the matter is that such a hospital needed to be located near the Maternity hospitals and it absolutely needed to be co-located with a university hospital. The Mater was rejected, so James' was the next best site available which met the criteria.

Keane2baMused · 28-04-2016 8:25pm

Anita Blow wrote: »

As someone who has worked in St James', Crumlin and other paeds facilities, I think it's a great decision. There's no doubting that traffic is a potential issue, but it's not an insurmountable one. The fact of the matter is that such a hospital needed to be located near the Maternity hospitals and it absolutely needed to be co-located with a university hospital. The Mater was rejected, so James' was the next best site available which met the criteria.

Completely agree.

I keep seeing people mention it being located on the N7 etc and stating how much more accessible that would be. How on earth would that be accessible to those who don't drive and who would have to get 2/3 buses /trains & buses to get there?

Having it centrally located and as close to maternity and university hospitals as possible is the only sensible solution.

khamilto · 29-04-2016 12:49am

smash wrote: »

It's not what they were saying. You've used the same tactics now on several posters including myself. What you're doing is putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la". A medical profession on newstalk just 30 minutes ago stated that centralisation is great, but that James' Hospital is the wrong location in his opinion.

The poster stated that it was unjust to build a new children's hospital in Dublin when Dublin already had children's hospitals and the rest of the country doesn't.

The poster wanted a new children's hospital built elsewhere, with the same status quo in Dublin.

This would result in poorer outcomes and children dying purely because the poster doesn't like that Dublin gets all the children's hospitals.

20 pages later and you still haven't bothered to back up any of the ****e you've spouted, nor admit that you were entirely wrong about almost everything you have stated. 'Crumlin built a wing that was purely Consultants' offices' (but it includes 7-9 outpatient departments and teaching facilities) 'St James is surrounded by 1 way streets' (but it only has one 1 way street around it, and that's a short stretch of road that leads on to an ambulance only entrance' 'most emergency cases arrive by car' (but I actually meant routine arrivals as well as emergency cases) Blah blah blah.

Indeed, you, Knine and January all seem to share the common approach of stating things that are untrue, ignoring when people provide evidence that you're wrong followed by changing the goalposts when ignorance doesn't work.

It's fine to not like the choice. It's even better to disagree.

Don't make things up when disagreeing though. If you can't find a logical/factual way to explain your dissatisfaction, keep it to yourself rather than filling up a thread with lies, dishonesty and disingenuity.

Lavinia · 29-04-2016 12:55am

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Completely agree.

I keep seeing people mention it being located on the N7 etc and stating how much more accessible that would be. How on earth would that be accessible to those who don't drive and who would have to get 2/3 buses /trains & buses to get there?

Having it centrally located and as close to maternity and university hospitals as possible is the only sensible solution.

If something is urgent you wouldn't go by public transport anyway.
You'd get a taxi or an ambulance.

beauf · 29-04-2016 1:32am

khamilto wrote: »

Centralisation of specialist services saves lives. That is unequivocal and unquestioned by researchers and academics....

What they mean by that is if resources are spread too thin they are less effective than if they are concentrated in one place. However that is only true if you are near those services. It doesn't mean that concentration has to be in Dublin. Of course if you run down all the services except those in one location, its going to create worse results in the other locations.

beauf · 29-04-2016 1:37am

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Completely agree.

I keep seeing people mention it being located on the N7 etc and stating how much more accessible that would be. How on earth would that be accessible to those who don't drive and who would have to get 2/3 buses /trains & buses to get there?

Having it centrally located and as close to maternity and university hospitals as possible is the only sensible solution.

Studies have shown. The majority of people don't travel to Dublin hospitals on public transport.

AFAIK 40% of the population live in the greater Dublin area. That means 60% don't.

beauf · 29-04-2016 1:53am

Its interesting how many are just repeating things like co-location and a bunch of other things.

A lot of these things stated here, as opinions of experts are actually came not from experts, but from the Department of Health/HSE recommendations.

IMO there was a political agenda to choose the Mater site. Which is why there is a disparity between these recommendations and what the medical experts did actually say.

http://politico.ie/archive/childrens-hospital-fiasco
http://thenewchildrenshospital.ie/index.php/2012/02/adult-hospital-co-location/
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2012/06/the-national-childrens-hospital-a-plea-to-the-government-to-put-childrens-interests-first-2/

beauf · 29-04-2016 1:55am

At this point it just needs to be built.

But people should be aware of how they are being manipulated.

wil · 29-04-2016 2:38am

beauf wrote: »

Its interesting how many are just repeating things like co-location and a bunch of other things.

A lot of these things stated here, as opinions of experts are actually came not from experts, but from the Department of Health/HSE recommendations.

IMO there was a political agenda to choose the Mater site. Which is why there is a disparity between these recommendations and what the medical experts did actually say.

http://politico.ie/archive/childrens-hospital-fiasco
http://thenewchildrenshospital.ie/index.php/2012/02/adult-hospital-co-location/
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2012/06/the-national-childrens-hospital-a-plea-to-the-government-to-put-childrens-interests-first-2/

Apparently "medical experts" mooted co-location but had nothing to do with selection of the site. Probably because most of this advice was on the phone from abroad by people who have never been in Dublin let alone seen any of the proposed sites.
That selection would have come from HSE etc as you said.

And I agree it is time to finally get it started.
However it is a once in generation missed opportunity to get it right.
I'm sure it will be good, but when the obvious problems mount up, all the told you sos will have been wasted breath.
Traffic, parking, cramped site, staff accommodation, future lack of expansion space, and all the difficulty of building on an already busy existing site.
People giving Harley St as proof of concept of a city centre hospital obviously do not understand what Harley Street is

A green field campus on the m50 would have been built by now, ready for phase 2 to begin the new co located maternity hospital and plenty of space for phase 3 when a future adult hospital would invariably be required. All at a time when builders were twiddling their thumbs. That could have been bequest of the Celtic tiger, not loads of hotels etc.

Now we hear of satellite hospitals in Blanchardstown and ???, why couldn't there be satellite hospitals in the city feeding a campus site on the m50. Feels like they are doing it reverseways.

Paperless hospital? Why is this a selling point? What is preventing existing hospitals going paperless? Surely that is where the should be very soon.

Anyway, get it done, and deal with the issues that won't be a surprise.

cyning · 29-04-2016 5:28am

I really do think the hosp should be in Dublin: of course it should and that's coming from someone living in Kerry. Does it need to be co located? Yes.

It's just as a parent who had 9 admissions in 15 months with a child, the lack of space for outdoor areas bothers me; we were only in isolation for one of those visits and for my daughters safety as her neutrophils were so so low that she was at risk of picking up other bugs. When we changed hospitals to Limerick which has a fab outdoor area compared to nothing in our local hosp it made a huge difference to my little girl to get out. And I can't help but think of kids that are in for weeks at a time, and months at a time how big a difference to get outside to play would make. I know it's not the most important thing. I do. A rooftop garden will not accommodate even one quarter of the beds available.

Parking again isn't the most important issue, but that doesn't mean it's not important. This is going to be the only children's hospital. So Crumlin, Temple St and Tallaghts specialities will all be in the one place... With an expanding population. There just isn't the parking facilities there to cover that, or the transport infrastructure from the rest of the country to allow public transport to be a viable option.

There is no room for expansion when it will invariably be needed.

No site will be perfect. It's just the above issues aren't small ones either. I don't have all the answers. It just feels like an opportunity missed to me.

The Bishop Basher · 29-04-2016 7:04am

Anyone who's ever had to make daily trips into James's can tell you this is the wrong site. In fact it's difficult to imagine how they could get it any more wrong.

But sure we should be used to it by now.

Keane2baMused · 29-04-2016 7:38am

Lavinia wrote: »

If something is urgent you wouldn't go by public transport anyway.
You'd get a taxi or an ambulance.

The majority of footfall won't be for emergencies requiring an ambulance.

How would the average person who has to bring their child in for hospital treatment weekly afford a taxi from say north co.dublin to citywest for example?

In an emergency an ambulance will get to dcc.

People are of the assumption that these roads are without traffic also because they are dual carriageways. In peak times they are an absolute nightmare.

Children's hospital finally gets the go-ahead

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