Children's hospital finally gets the go-ahead

Podge_irl

January wrote: »

A site along the M50. I'm not necessarily saying Connolly but since it needs to be located with an adult hospital, then Connolly already has that advantage. What would be wrong with moving the specialists out to Connolly? It could be done in stages while the NCH and the Rotunda were being built.

There's no joined up thinking in this country at all. If you need the specialists where the hospital is, move them.

Connolly is a small hospital with very few of the required facilities for these specialists.

So now we're back to rebuilding the largest hospital in Ireland.

Keane2baMused

January wrote: »

People are going to hit the toll bridge coming from the North/North West of the country going to St. Jame's.

No because you can bypass it pretty easily. From the south you would need to go through DCC or through the strawberry beds to get northside.

SEPT 23 1989

they were offered a free site at Newlands Cross to build this

Luas and buses to the door and fast motorway access north south east and west

The Backwards Man

Keane2baMused wrote: »

That would also mean having to scrap E-Toll. Or come up with an alternative.

And what about staffing it? You can't just pluck a load of medical staff out of Dublin south & city and say sorry you're re-locating.

Connolly is completely the wrong site for so many reasons. James's is definitely not perfect but it's preferable in terms of location to expert critical care, cancer services and public transport.

Don't think that just because we're from the arsehole of nowhere that we know nothing about tolls or toll tags!

The Backwards Man

Uriel. wrote: »

So you're willing to sacrifice co-location with a university hospital?

Does the mountain have to come to Mohammed?

Keane2baMused

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Don't think that just because we're from the arsehole of nowhere that we know nothing about tolls or toll tags!

Where did I say otherwise?

There are tolls on the n4 also I'm aware of this. So those coming from say Sligo would have to pay two tolls if it was northside based. That or add a feck load of time on to their journey and go through Lucan and the strawberry beds.

The Backwards Man

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Where did I say otherwise?

There are tolls on the n4 also I'm aware of this. So those coming from say Sligo would have to pay two tolls if it was northside based. That or add a feck load of time on to their journey and go through Lucan and the strawberry beds.

There's no toll exemptions for travelling to Dublin City Centre, if there is they owe me a sh1t ton of money

Keane2baMused

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's no toll exemptions for travelling to Dublin City Centre, if there is they owe me a sh1t ton of money

I have absolutely no idea what your point is here.

Where did I mention a toll exemption? The point was having to pay 2 tolls over one if it was northside located and you had to come from the n4

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/a-watershed-day-goahead-given-for-irelands-new-childrens-hospital-34667361.html

After years of this saga, it has been finally given the green light today for work to start this summer.
Thing that I don't get is why that location? Parking should be interesting...
Right next to the Luas so you're fecked if there is a strike and the traffic around that place is a bloody nightmare.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to place it closer to the M50? I wonder if the ambulances will be able to use the Luas tracks in an emergency?
I'll be amazed if it's finished on time and on budget considering they have debating this for the past 15 years :rolleyes:

And just 24 hours later...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/childrens-hospital-cost-could-yet-rise-by-up-to-50m-34670051.html

SEPT 23 1989

bear1 wrote: »

And just 24 hours later...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/childrens-hospital-cost-could-yet-rise-by-up-to-50m-34670051.html

it will be 1 billion by the time the first child is ever treated there going on past performances in this country

The Backwards Man

bear1 wrote: »

And just 24 hours later...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/childrens-hospital-cost-could-yet-rise-by-up-to-50m-34670051.html

That's totally inconsequential.

The James' site is the best for the big knobs in the HSE, that's all that matters.

bear1

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

it will be 1 billion by the time the first child is ever treated there going on past performances in this country

The Backwards Man wrote: »

That's totally inconsequential.

The James' site is the best for the big knobs in the HSE, that's all that matters.

I agree completely.

Podge_irl

The Backwards Man wrote: »

That's totally inconsequential.

The James' site is the best for the big knobs in the HSE, that's all that matters.

So what exactly do you think their ulterior motive was? If the location is so obviously bad why do you think they picked it? Are we talking outright bribery here (by who?) or incompetence? Maybe the doctors who are going to be working there wanted a shorter commute and put pressure on the HSE for that.

And every project in the history of mankind runs over budget.

January

Keane2baMused wrote: »

That would also mean having to scrap E-Toll. Or come up with an alternative.

And what about staffing it? You can't just pluck a load of medical staff out of Dublin south & city and say sorry you're re-locating.

Connolly is completely the wrong site for so many reasons. James's is definitely not perfect but it's preferable in terms of location to expert critical care, cancer services and public transport.

No it wouldn't, many people travelling from the West, South and North of Ireland will hit two tolls coming into Dublin to go to St. Jame's anyway, tolls are of no concern to parents who need to get their children to hospital for appointments, it's just part and parcel of hospital life.

And why can't you just pluck the staff out of Dublin south and city and say 'well the job is here, that's where you have to go now' it happens in the private sector all the bloody time.

AFAIR Jame's is not the centre of excellence for cancer care anyway in Ireland so explain that one to me.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Connolly is a small hospital with very few of the required facilities for these specialists.

So now we're back to rebuilding the largest hospital in Ireland.

Yes, why not? Why not expand Connolly and move all the specialists out there?

LeinsterDub

January wrote: »

And why can't you just pluck the staff out of Dublin south and city and say 'well the job is here, that's where you have to go now' it happens in the private sector all the bloody time.

Unions and rightly so in this case. You can't force people to move and in the private sector it doesn't happen all the bloody time . Generally you've to pay off the staff to move

smash

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm assuming you don't wait 47 minutes for a Luas yes.

The luas takes 14 mins from abbey street to James. If you're 2hrs16min away from abbey street by public transport you don't live in Dublin.

Someone in Carrickmines or stepaside can be on public transport alone for up to 1 hour 28 minutes to get to James' Hospital according to Google Maps.

LeinsterDub

January wrote: »

Why not expand Connolly and move all the specialists out there?

Build an entirely new hospital for the sake of 20-30 minutes extra drive? At peak hours , less off peak

January

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Build an entirely new hospital for the sake of 20-30 minutes extra drive? At peak hours , less off peak

20-30 minutes now... when the hospital isn't even built. When you've double the people trying to get to the hospital at peak hours then it's obviously going to take longer to get there.

Keane2baMused

January wrote: »

No it wouldn't, many people travelling from the West, South and North of Ireland will hit two tolls coming into Dublin to go to St. Jame's anyway, tolls are of no concern to parents who need to get their children to hospital for appointments, it's just part and parcel of hospital life.

And why can't you just pluck the staff out of Dublin south and city and say 'well the job is here, that's where you have to go now' it happens in the private sector all the bloody time.

AFAIR Jame's is not the centre of excellence for cancer care anyway in Ireland so explain that one to me.



Yes, why not? Why not expand Connolly and move all the specialists out there?

Say that to parents on low incomes who must travel up weekly or even daily to the hospital.

Because there is a thing called choice and free will. We are already lacking resources and staff in hospitals and the last thing that is needed is further mass exodus.

James's site houses the Bone Marrow for Leukemia trust. It has the leading experts in cancer care in the country. Given that leukaemia and it's subtypes are the most common type of childhood cancer I would imagine having close access to this care is pretty important.

Keane2baMused

I already know of two adults who were being treated in both Tallaght and Beaumont for cancer care. When things got rough what was done? They were transferred over to James's, all too late unfortunately.

January

Keane2baMused wrote: »

I already know of two adults who were being treated in both Tallaght and Beaumont for cancer care. When things got rough what was done? They were transferred over to James's, all too late unfortunately.

Funny that cos my dad was being treated in St James and then was transferred to the mater.

Keane2baMused

January wrote: »

Funny that cos my dad was being treated in St James and then was transferred to the mater.

It depends on the type of cancer. Leukaemia specifically is generally treated in James's, as I said the trust there.

Neurological cancers are not treated there

January

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Say that to parents on low incomes who must travel up weekly or even daily to the hospital.

Because there is a thing called choice and free will. We are already lacking resources and staff in hospitals and the last thing that is needed is further mass exodus.

James's site houses the Bone Marrow for Leukemia trust. It has the leading experts in cancer care in the country. Given that leukaemia and it's subtypes are the most common type of childhood cancer I would imagine having close access to this care is pretty important.

I know parents who travel to the hospital weekly and daily from kerry, clare, cork, mayo and donegal. Funnily enough they don't want to go to St James they'd prefer it to be nearer to the M50 too.

Keane2baMused

January wrote: »

I know parents who travel to the hospital weekly and daily from kerry, clare, cork, mayo and donegal. Funnily enough they don't want to go to St James they'd prefer it to be nearer to the M50 too.

Well they would because it's closer.

There are more than just 5 counties however.

And shock horror people living in Dublin and the surrounding areas may need to be accommodated also

bear1

Podge_irl wrote: »

So what exactly do you think their ulterior motive was? If the location is so obviously bad why do you think they picked it? Are we talking outright bribery here (by who?) or incompetence? Maybe the doctors who are going to be working there wanted a shorter commute and put pressure on the HSE for that.

And every project in the history of mankind runs over budget.

That's quite a claim, apart from the new hospital. Can you list all known projects in the history of mankind which ran over budget?

nelly17

Podge_irl wrote: »

Extremely near the main train station into Dublin, serviced by regular city public transport, co-located with a large university hospital.

Glad to know we all know better though.

Yeah because if my child is in a critical condition I'll just jump on a train

Podge_irl

nelly17 wrote: »

Yeah because if my child is in a critical condition I'll just jump on a train

If your child is in a critical condition you'll be in a bloody ambulance.

The majority of people going in and out of a hospital are not emergency situations. Public transport accessibility is actually quite important.

CIARAN_BOYLE

nelly17 wrote: »

Yeah because if my child is in a critical condition I'll just jump on a train

If your child is in critical condition you will call an ambulance. If your child has a scheduled appointment why wouldn't you get a train.

The Bishop Basher

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If your child is in critical condition you will call an ambulance. If your child has a scheduled appointment why wouldn't you get a train.

This statement is a clear demonstration of the complete lack of experience, knowledge, empathy, compassion and understanding that went into this decision.

You sir are very lucky indeed to get to be so ignorant of the struggle families with sick kids go through day in day out, made far worse in every way by the poor decisions of our elected "leaders".

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

If your child is in a critical condition you'll be in a bloody ambulance.

The majority of people going in and out of a hospital are not emergency situations. Public transport accessibility is actually quite important.

Can you put some specifics on what you mean on "quite important"

75pc of all journeys are made by car, while bus accounts for 3.8pc and rail/Dart/Luas represents another 1.5pc. Walking accounts for 15.4pc of all journeys, while cycling stands at 1.3pc.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/commuters-reject-public-transport-for-comfort-of-own-cars-31353669.html

tails_naf

Keane2baMused wrote: »

That would also mean having to scrap E-Toll. Or come up with an alternative.

And what about staffing it? You can't just pluck a load of medical staff out of Dublin south & city and say sorry you're re-locating.

Connolly is completely the wrong site for so many reasons. James's is definitely not perfect but it's preferable in terms of location to expert critical care, cancer services and public transport.

In fact many staff, especially the lower paid like nurses may welcome this. Living in the city centre can't be ideal if your salary is not high enough to do so.

nelly17

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If your child is in critical condition you will call an ambulance. If your child has a scheduled appointment why wouldn't you get a train.

In many cases affordability


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beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

... If the location is so obviously bad why do you think they picked it?...

IMO the priority of the expert recommendations, green space, expansion, co location with a maternity hospital etc., was switched in priority to co-location with a adult hospital and public transport so that they could pick the Mater. The political influence that was promoting the Mater is now gone. But its those reasons that enable them to pick James which has much the same limitations of the Mater. Its those twisted set of priorities from the HSE/Dept of Health, that people are repeating here.

SEPT 23 1989

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Well they would because it's closer.

There are more than just 5 counties however.

And shock horror people living in Dublin and the surrounding areas may need to be accommodated also

people in the surrounding areas of Dublin certainly don't want to be trying to get in there

Keane2baMused

tails_naf wrote: »

In fact many staff, especially the lower paid like nurses may welcome this. Living in the city centre can't be ideal if your salary is not high enough to do so.

Very few of the nurses live in the city centre because of rental prices most get public transport or drive and park

Keane2baMused

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

people in the surrounding areas of Dublin certainly don't want to be trying to get in there

Have you seen the m50 northbound during rush hour?

It has taken me 35 mins to get past two exits on a bad day. There's nothing magical about the m50 during peak times

smash

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Have you seen the m50 northbound during rush hour?

It has taken me 35 mins to get past two exits on a bad day. There's nothing magical about the m50 during peak times

Southbound it's just as bad. A lot of people will be using the M50 to access the new hospital too.

BattleCorp

Podge_irl wrote: »

If your child is in a critical condition you'll be in a bloody ambulance.

The majority of people going in and out of a hospital are not emergency situations. Public transport accessibility is actually quite important.

A sick child with a compromised immune system might not necessarily need an ambulance to get to the hospital for an appointment but that doesn't mean that it's ok for them to get onto a crowed train or bus to get to the hospital.

Podge_irl

beauf wrote: »

IMO the priority of the expert recommendations, green space, expansion, co location with a maternity hospital etc., was switched in priority to co-location with a adult hospital and public transport so that they could pick the Mater. The political influence that was promoting the Mater is now gone. But its those reasons that enable them to pick James which has much the same limitations of the Mater. Its those twisted set of priorities from the HSE/Dept of Health, that people are repeating here.

So you think the expert panel changed their recommendation because some politicians asked them to? That is a pretty damning indictment of them. And why would it make sense for the politicians to push for the Mater if it is so bad? What are they gaining out of it?

What happened is simply that the expert panel decided the single most important factor was co-location with an adult specialist hospital. They didn't dismiss all other considerations, simply decided that the having the best clinical situation was the most important factor.

Podge_irl

BattleCorp wrote: »

A sick child with a compromised immune system might not necessarily need an ambulance to get to the hospital for an appointment but that doesn't mean that it's ok for them to get onto a crowed train or bus to get to the hospital.

So drive.

People going for routine appointments and people visiting can and should be using public transport.

The Backwards Man

Podge_irl wrote: »

So drive.

People going for routine appointments and people visiting can and should be using public transport.

You're a bit like the consultant in Beaumont that released the Falcarragh man from hospital on a Friday evening.

'Where am I going to go, I'm too late for the bus home?' asks the patient.

'Take the train instead ' says the consultant.

maudgonner

Podge_irl wrote: »

People going for routine appointments and people visiting can and should be using public transport.

That simply isn't practical with Irish public transport, particularly for those traveling long distances.

BattleCorp

Podge_irl wrote: »

So drive.

People going for routine appointments and people visiting can and should be using public transport.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You're a bit like the consultant in Beaumont that released the Falcarragh man from hospital on a Friday evening.

'Where am I going to go, I'm too late for the bus home?' asks the patient.

'Take the train instead ' says the consultant.

I'm from a small town in Leinster. Public transport is pretty scarce here. There is one bus in the morning to the nearest town with a train. There is one bus back at 5pm. Miss either and you are screwed.

There is a Bus Eireann service to Dublin but that only goes through the town twice. It's the getting home part that is the problem. If you get delayed or get an afternoon appointment, then you are snookered.

Add into that scenario the difficulty someone with a sick child might have trying to get to a routine appointment even if there was a decent bus service. Trying to get onto a bus with a pushchair/wheelchair, crying toddler/child, bags of whatever is needed for the child etc. It would be difficult in a car, let alone getting onto a bus to get to Dublin and maybe another bus/luas to get to the hospital etc.

Public transport will work for a lot of people, but it won't work for plenty either.

You can't ignore the fact that a lot of people will need to use their cars and that public transport isn't the answer to everything.

Podge_irl

maudgonner wrote: »

That simply isn't practical with Irish public transport, particularly for those traveling long distances.

No, it is not possible for everyone. I am not suggesting people in gurneys roll onto the train. Though I imagine people who don't need to drive to the hospital will continue doing so and then complain about the traffic and parking when they get there. St James is incredibly well connected by public transport as it st

Quite a large part of the population of Dublin do not even own cars (latest info I found was somewhere in the region of 30% of households but its quite old) so have no choice but to use public transportation.


Essentially all this boils down to is that they didn't consider access by car to be the most important issue.

nelly17

Podge_irl wrote: »

So you think the expert panel changed their recommendation because some politicians asked them to? That is a pretty damning indictment of them. And why would it make sense for the politicians to push for the Mater if it is so bad? What are they gaining out of it?

What happened is simply that the expert panel decided the single most important factor was co-location with an adult specialist hospital. They didn't dismiss all other considerations, simply decided that the having the best clinical situation was the most important factor.

There have been questions within the medical profession around documentation proving that there will be improved clinical outcomes through the use of the site, to date this has not been provided

Podge_irl

BattleCorp wrote: »

Public transport will work for a lot of people, but it won't work for plenty either.

You can't ignore the fact that a lot of people will need to use their cars and that public transport isn't the answer to everything.

I never suggested it was the answer to everything. I am suggesting that you are right it will work for a lot of people though I doubt they'll use it which is not helping the problem.

I am aware people need to drive to the hospital. Everyone is aware of that. Making it slightly less convenient to drive to in order to achieve better clinical performance is the issue and that trade-off was considered appropriate.

The Bishop Basher

It's clear that many people just don't get it.

If you have a sick child, open to infection, running a temp, vomiting, whatever....

The very last place you'll ever want to bring them will be on a bus or a train.

jmayo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Extremely near the main train station into Dublin, serviced by regular city public transport, co-located with a large university hospital.

Glad to know we all know better though.

FFS.
I would bet a lot of the proponents of this site know shag all about the trials and tribulations parents with sick children go through.

Why does the leader of one of Irelands main charities dealing with very sick and terminally ill children reckon this site was bad ?

And how many people actually use Heuston station to get to Dublin and then work how many with sick children would use it.
Jaysus on a bike.

And as some posters here have said shure "why not use public transport if it is only a scheduled appointment".

It a child has an appointment in a childrens hospital, then well let me see ...
Oh yeah, they are fooking not well and most parents aren't going to be dragging them around our great public transport system.

Someone drives with a child needing hospital visit from Mayo, Donegal, Kerry, etc to park at the Red cow, wait for a tram and then walk them into the hospital.
Oh and then repeat the process to come home.

khamilto wrote: »

It has 400% of the parking spaces Crumlin Hospital currently has (and 200% of the proposed Mater site), is located a couple of hundred meters away from a dual carriageway+24hr bus lane, SCR and the canal roads as well as the Luas, the main train station for most of the routes in Ireland and several high frequency bus routes.

The Mater site was always a joke and Crumlin is poor.

Here is what it says on their website...

Car parking on the hospital site is very limited and, between the hours of 9am to 4pm, there is a high demand for car parking spaces. There is one general patient/visitors car park located at Entrance1 at the Main Outpatients Area on Cooley Road. It would not be unusual to find yourself in a queue of cars waiting for a space to become available in order to enter the car park.

Why not build somewhere that could provide 1000% more spaces?
Just being "a bit better" than Crumlin shouldn't be good enough.

And don't forget that the new parking in James has to now accommodate the lost parking and the parking of all the extra staff.

khamilto wrote: »

Beyond that, one of the criteria was to colocate it with a major university teaching hospital (which is considered internationally as best practice) which limited the options to the Mater, St Vincents or St James. Of those three, St James was the clear and obvious winner.

The NCH being built on the mythical greenfields site somewhere outside the M50 would result in worse care for sick children, and worse outcomes.

My apologies if spending that extra 20mins at 10am to get to your appointment is more important than the standard of care provided. I'm sure the children affected by it will understand that your minor inconvenience trumps their chances of survival and recovery.

Obvious you don't have any sick kids.
Be thankful and hope if you do you don't run into someone with that attitude.

We have two maternity hospitals, one the so called National Maternity Hospital, stuck right in the city centre.

Have you ever used either of them ?
If so you would know that parking is a fooking joke.
Ask a woman in severe labour what it is like to walk a few hundred yards because there is no parking on site at Holles Street.
There is no parking outside the actual front door.

There is no room to expand and the facilities are 19th century.
It is ridiculous in this day and age that Holles Street is still there.

Why not have a bit of forward planning and move one of these maternity hospitals out to a green field site beside a new children's hospital.

Why not have a bit of forward planning for once?

Or will we have another M50 where it needs to be upgraded the minute it is completed because it was never fit for purpose.

cardinal tetra wrote: »

....
Transport wise, everyone in this thread appears to be looking at it from a Dublin perspective. Typical me Fein attitude where culchies arent acknowledged in the use of the hospital.

Even most of the Dublin residents and surrounding areas would use cars to get to/from hospital.
It is only the gobshytes without sick kids (dire emergency or not) that would take public transport.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If your child is in critical condition you will call an ambulance. If your child has a scheduled appointment why wouldn't you get a train.

What about if your child is receiving cancer treatment, has a long term debilitating condition ?
Should they take public transport ?

What about if the child has something like cystic fibrosis ?
Should they take public transport to increase the chances of getting infected ?

Podge_irl

Swanner wrote: »

It's clear that many people just don't get it.

You being one of them seeing I have at no point argued you should bring them on a train.

Podge_irl

And, for the third time because it's constantly ignored, the best children's hospital in Ireland or the UK has much, much worse access by car. It is, perhaps, not the defining factor behind a great hospital