ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

gaiscioch

Listening to the radio today was listening to the mother of all propaganda campaigns waged by senior civil servants utilising journalists they've helped by leaking stories to them.

It was astounding but unsurprising how supple, pliant and partisan the media was to the DoES's spin. No interrogation of said claims. Our "free press" indeed. As I said before if they're this agenda-driven and bought by the government's spin machine on this issue that we know about, be afraid at the thought that everything we read or hear about other sectors in society is just as distorted and malicious.

TheDriver

I would like to ask Sean O Foughlu about the amount of money one would get if you vote yes because we were also promised all these things once HRA was adhered to? Will there be another agreement hoisted upon us after it with more bully boy tactics? Who gave the 1st sec the authority to deal with industrial relations publications on official government websites?

deiseindublin

I'd also like to ask him to justify his €180k salary when he's happy for new entrants to get a tiny fraction of that!

trihead

Here is the 'press release' that was put up on the education.ie site and what they were referring to this morning on the radio... it is scare tactics and a PR game but doesn't read well for those staff who don't usually vote in ballots or ill informed (which there are a quite a number)... who could read this and decide sure we'll keep the auld Croke park hours.

http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/Payroll-Financial-Information/ASTI-Ballot-FAQ.html

No protection against compulsory redundancy (particularly in situations of school closure or teacher surplus) This could be a huge issue for some teachers...

ethical

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Benicetomonty

ASTI SC going to protest outside Dept of Education at 3pm today.

https://t.co/R6O6YmdhB3

Icsics

We should all be protesting! The DES had disgraced itself & we need to fight back & not let these threats go unchallenged. Did the Gardai face the same threats over the CP hrs? Absolutely not, but yet again we are fair game.

Benicetomonty

And Union president's response to threats made. Sent to Irish Independent 5 days ago and remains unpublished.

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/presidents-response-to-department-remarks/

km79

At least the union is responding this time
Good to see
And may help sway some of the members currently 50:50 in which way to vote

gaiscioch

ethical wrote: »

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Precisely. In addition to potential retirees, I know of at least one teacher who would prefer to have been made redundant than redeployed because her subject is in huge demand and she'd have little difficulty getting a new job. By not being made redundant she lost a tax-free redundancy payment (which a worker is entitled to once every 10 years) and ended up in a school she wasn't keen on. Contrary to the "redeployment is done to help the teachers" line, redeployment is in fact good for some people, but not for others. The point is teachers do not have the choice between both and that's entirely because it doesn't suit the Department to give that choice.

Indeed, I'll go one step further and say without hesitation that a number of older teachers I know in a school which closed down were given the option of redeployment to astonishingly bad schools or no job. They retired early rather accept that redeployment, while younger people in the same school got better schools. The cynics at the time all remarked that the Department's Redeployment section wanted to get rid of those more expensive teachers asap. Officially, of course, it was something like "it's just the luck of the draw". Had they been made redundant rather than treated in such a sly manner, they would have been much better off financially.

TheDriver

There is only one thing that sways me: We were promised it all in various circulars such as cl0015/2014 and cl0036/2013, maybe we should ask Sean O Foghlu to talk to Padraig Maloney or Matthew Ryan who all signed circulars promising things from June 2016. I wonder will there be a big political backlash once it gains some ground, very dangerous territory for a general sec to be taking

trihead

ethical wrote: »

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Protection against compulsory redundancyNo protection against compulsory redundancy (particularly in situations of school closure or teacher surplus) and only statutory payments for teachers who are made redundant

Sorry I didn't quote the full section above - there wouldn't be payoffs as such.

Ps I am aware it's a scare tactic but still it's a brass move by the department!

TheDriver

trihead wrote: »

Ps I am aware it's a scare tactic but still it's a brass move by the department!

Its a somewhat stupid move because no one likes bullying tactics. I was initially scared but then realised that we have been here before looking at the dangling carrot.

MrJones1973

The redundancies argument will be wheeled out every single time. Is anybody surprised? Can you imagine them actually carrying this out? I cant. We need more teachers not less. Ed byrne did a good defense this morning, Stumbles a bit at start but finds his feet eventually
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F20983042%5F48%5F06%2D05%2D2016%5F

Predict outcome- I predict Croke park hours gone by 60-40 margin

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The redundancies argument will be wheeled out every single time. Is anybody surprised? Can you imagine them actually carrying this out? I cant. We need more teachers not less. Ed byrne did a good defense this morning, Stumbles a bit at start but finds his feet eventually
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F20983042%5F48%5F06%2D05%2D2016%5F

Predict outcome- I predict Croke park hours gone by 60-40 margin

that was my prediction to a colleague today too
hopefully we are correct
one extra days summer holiday for a start anyway if nothing else!

feardeas

In my opinion the ASTI should be in talks to see if these hours could be used in a more creative and productive way and then move to a ballot.

I wouldn't receive an increase for six years as I'm just on one of these that lasts for three years. Also lose all the rest and would be very concerned at the loss of the CID after two years for younger colleagues. I have to say that I am at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on.

evolving_doors

Anyone hear about new entrants pay being restored for firefighters?

Edit: Tis true... http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/salary-cuts-for-recent-public-service-entrants-to-be-reversed-1.2633801

Jamfa

Benicetomonty wrote: »

ASTI SC going to protest outside Dept of Education at 3pm today.

https://t.co/R6O6YmdhB3

Did they help Jan clear her desk? Has the reality that the DES call the shots and not Ruairi or Jan or the new Minister Regina!!!

2011abc

Explains how the anti teacher campaign in media had such momentum without a government in place ...Gen Sec of DOE a disgrace

gaiscioch

I wish the ASTI leaders would specifically and unequivocally challenge the claims of the DoES, as reported on RTÉ right here yesterday.

Just to remind any stragglers who forget what was signed up to by teachers in HRA. From the HRA in May 2013, Key points of the Haddington Road Agreement, I quote:

1. Pay Restoration: "Pay for those earning between 65k and 100k will be restored in full by 1 January 2018. Restoration will occur in two equal phases on 1 April 2017 and on 1 January 2018."

2. Supervision and Substitution: "In recognition of the loss of the S&S pensionable allowance, a gross payment of €1592 will be applied to the incremental scale for teachers.This will be applied in two equal moieties; €796 in the school year 2016/17 and €796 in the school year 2017/18."

3. Increments: "Those earning €65k-100k will receive the next increment on their normal incremental date and each of the following 2 increments will be paid at 18 month intervals (i.e. two 6 month delays). Subsequent increments [i.e. 36 months after May 2013, i.e. from June 2016) will be paid at 12 month intervals."

4. Croke Park hours: "The deal will run for three years, from July 2013 to June 2016. The current Croke Park Agreement was due to expire in June 2014, at the end of a four year term."

So, not once but twice teachers have kept their side of what we were always told was a short-term agreement necessitated by emergency legislation. It expires next month, June 2016. That's it. Over. Finito. Resist the bullying and threats. Hold the ground. This is entirely about conditions of employment and the DoES trying to break our working culture, despite our teaching far more hours than the OECD average (915 hours at primary & 735 hours at secondary with the OECD average of 772 hours and 643 hours respectively), and our schools rating far higher in the 2015 PISA rankings than the English school system the Department of Education is trying to emulate with its "reform". Not a single journalist in the Irish media has the character to question this whole "reform" mantra from Ó Foghlú and his obscenely overpaid, ginormously pensioned colleagues in the upper ranks of the Department of Education who are pushing this (a special hello to this 2011 architect of our cutbacks). All those DoES "sources" for articles in their newspaper they'd suddenly stop getting if journalists started questioning the DoES.

Money comes and goes but to reiterate what so many of us in this forum have now said: conditions are very, very, very hard to regain once they're lost. They can well throw a few shillings (after tax) in to beguile the young, single teachers who have plenty of free time now and no eye for their quality of life when they're going around like a blue-arsed fly with a slew of kids while worked to the bone with far longer school days filled by administrative ráiméis, a shed load of pointless paper for everything, and insipid after-school meetings to crush any free-spirited fiery inspiring teachers and reduce them to defeated English-style, yellow-pack, pen-pushing, form-filling, institutionalised, classroom administrators.

r93kaey5p2izun

Jamfa wrote: »

Did they help Jan clear her desk? Has the reality that the DES call the shots and not Ruairi or Jan or the new Minister Regina!!!

Looks like this was incorrect. It's Bruton. I wonder where the misinformation came from as it has been all over facebook etc for hours.

political analyst

If the ASTI does go into talks in the future, it would be a good idea to seek a meeting with the new minister instead of DES civil servants. Then the ASTI might figure out the motive for the DES's lack of flexibility with regard to the CP hours.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

In my opinion the ASTI should be in talks to see if these hours could be used in a more creative and productive way and then move to a ballot.

I wouldn't receive an increase for six years as I'm just on one of these that lasts for three years. Also lose all the rest and would be very concerned at the loss of the CID after two years for younger colleagues. I have to say that I am at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on.

Firstly the CID issue should be separate-was this was part of Ward report. Ed byrne indicated as such.It was not part of LR. Circulars issued on it so now Department want to row back?
But go ahead and vote No if you can swallow the following
1) Continuing re vamp of JC without any extra posts. Extended to LC soon.
2) Modular education everywhere hooray-constant paperwork.
2) More bull**** initiatives without any funding. I loved the literacy one without any actual funding for books
3) Leading on from 1 -a no real middle management in schools. You proably have a post already.
4) If they take away s and s allowance-we wont do it
5) For most teachers you are talking a grand after tax this year. Thats it. But for that you agree to every Education reform. Every one

Because all the above is wrapped up IN LR. Go for it!

Frankly frank

Croke park is not the be all and end all as many suggest -it may well pass....

More pressing issues such as:
One salary scale restored.
Reinstatement of s/s payments
Cuts reversed
lifting of moratorium on posts
junior cert mess sorted
Etc etc etc etc
And then ....one secondary union with a cohesive and proactive rather than reactive strategy in the future would reduce likelihood of repeat issues.

But too many vested interests on both sides for this to happen .
As for the quango the teaching council protecting a profession........ !!!

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Firstly the CID issue should be separate-was this was part of Ward report. Ed byrne indicated as such.It was not part of LR. Circulars issued on it so now Department want to row back?
But go ahead and vote No if you can swallow the following
1) Continuing re vamp of JC without any extra posts. Extended to LC soon.
2) Modular education everywhere hooray-constant paperwork.
2) More bull**** initiatives without any funding. I loved the literacy one without any actual funding for books
3) Leading on from 1 -a no real middle management in schools. You proably have a post already.
4) If they take away s and s allowance-we wont do it
5) For most teachers you are talking a grand after tax this year. Thats it. But for that you agree to every Education reform. Every one

Because all the above is wrapped up IN LR. Go for it!

Well said ! I have not got an increment in 4 years I think . Can't actually remember . I was just at the start of the 3 year one when the freeze came in . This would mean another year or so of a wait. Maybe longer
Don't care. It's worth pittance anyway .
I'd rather have 2 hours outside in the sun of an evening this week than sitting inside peed off.
Can't put a price on that !
VOTE YES
It's literally our last chance . It's about more than the CP hours.
That's why the govt are coming on so strong ........

deiseindublin

I really wish I was in the ASTI so that I could actually vote YES to this ballot to get rid of the CP hours. At least there's a ballot there for you.

What about the TUI? They're deaf, dumb and useless as far as I can make out. Nothing on their homepage to allude to any vote upcoming or any discussions, no motion voted on at congress about CP.

WTF am I paying dues for?

TheDriver

TUI waiting to see how ASTI goes? Big point about CP hourz- if we stop doing them then its a minefield for all other PS, including NTs

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

I really wish I was in the ASTI so that I could actually vote YES to this ballot to get rid of the CP hours. At least there's a ballot there for you.

What about the TUI? They're deaf, dumb and useless as far as I can make out. Nothing on their homepage to allude to any vote upcoming or any discussions, no motion voted on at congress about CP.

WTF am I paying dues for?

TUI may have something in the next few days. They have been negotiating for the last few weeks and whatever they have will go to the executive maybe even this weekend.

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

In my opinion the ASTI should be in talks to see if these hours could be used in a more creative and productive way and then move to a ballot.

I wouldn't receive an increase for six years as I'm just on one of these that lasts for three years. Also lose all the rest and would be very concerned at the loss of the CID after two years for younger colleagues. I have to say that I am at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on.

You are "at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on" Are you really for real? Where on earth have you been during the past six years of savage cuts to teachers' pay,conditions and education in general that the Govt/DES have been hell bent on? Maybe that might refresh your memory and explain the "reasoning" of the union who happen to represent teachers interests and thank god for the union and thank god for confrontation! I shudder to think where we would be without it!

And as for your "creative and productive" use of the 33 hours how about the following:
a] give them back to teachers who are parents so that they have more time with their children.
b] give them back to all teachers so that they get even a bit more time for the never ending to do list of correction, preparation, helping students etc
c] give them back to all teachers so that those who wish can spend time on extra curriculars.
d] basically give them back, because teachers have always willingly given over and above.

As for you wouldn't receive an increase and younger collegues wouldn't get a CID etc etc,let me just say we're all being threatened here. So let's all grow a pair and stand up to the threats. Otherwise those CID's and paltry increases will be worth nothing in an exhausting job of constant demands.

It is now almost midnight on Friday and I have to be up at 5am to travel to Dublin as I'm on the CEC of this "confrontational"union. Representing people with defeatist attitudes like yours quite frankly galls me!

deiseindublin

TheDriver wrote: »

TUI waiting to see how ASTI goes? Big point about CP hourz- if we stop doing them then its a minefield for all other PS, including NTs

Doesn't seem to be an issue for the Gardaí, I heard months ago that they were no longer doing them.