ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

doc11 · 07-05-2016 12:42am

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Anyone hear about new entrants pay being restored for firefighters?

Edit: Tis true... http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/salary-cuts-for-recent-public-service-entrants-to-be-reversed-1.2633801

Meh, Teachers allowances have similarly been restored and new teachers now share a common pay scale with older colleagues.All smoke and mirrors

evolving_doors · 07-05-2016 6:32am

doc11 wrote: »

Meh, Teachers allowances have similarly been restored and new teachers now share a common pay scale with older colleagues.All smoke and mirrors

Meh!
False.
Links please.
Soz

TheDriver · 07-05-2016 10:49am

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/-5f7fe2decb/
At long last, legal action against FEMPI. I don't see how any court will be able to justify the existence of emergency legislation after the last budget and the comments of the Finance Minister. S**t just got real............

"ASTI has taken a decision to mount a legal challenge to the FEMPI legislation if it is not rescinded in June when it is up for review."

km79 · 07-05-2016 10:52am

TheDriver wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/-5f7fe2decb/
At long last, legal action against FEMPI. I don't see how any court will be able to justify the existence of emergency legislation after the last budget and the comments of the Finance Minister. S**t just got real............

"ASTI has taken a decision to mount a legal challenge to the FEMPI legislation if it is not rescinded in June when it is up for review."

that is FANTASTIC news

Icsics · 07-05-2016 12:15pm

At long last, some recent changes in ASTI leadership & SC starting to do what a Union should have been doing all along- fight for its members not roll over for JMB/DES

ethical · 07-05-2016 1:16pm

BY JOE.IE
The Government has continued its habit of paying several civil servants through the nose. The new Secretary General of the Department of Education will get a whopper €190,000 pay cheque every year.

The salary of the new department head, Seán Ó'Foghlú, will far outweigh those of the leaders of some of the world's superpowers. Seán will be rewarded for his skill set with €17,000 more than the British Prime Minister David Cameron. More staggering still, his pay will be well over twice that of Russian Premier Dimitry Medvedev.

The 45-year-old career civil servant has been assistant head at the Department of Education for the last three and a half years. So, he was the obvious choice for the top job. We wouldn't want the Government to look further than underneath their nose for a replacement.

The Irish Daily Star today reports that the Seán's bumper salary is seven times what a newly qualified teacher would earn and only €10,000 behind the Taoiseach's already inflated pay.

To add insult to injury, the person he's replacing, Brigid McManus, will retire later this month under the Government's 'Get out while you can' scheme. She'll get a lovely €204,000 golden wave off and an annual €115,000 pension payout.

Education Minister Ruairi Quinn said Seán: "...will make a major contribution to introducing change in the Irish education and training system". He'd want to with that size of a salary.

This ó'Foghlú fella has not suffered during the period of austerity most of us have suffered......I bet he is really really affected by FEMPI! He should get real and see how things really are in the real world.One word that could describe him is:" amadán críochnaithe" den scoth! This is not a personal attack on said gentleperson but a just reminder that there is life outside the nice office.Get real Seánny boy!

doc11 · 07-05-2016 3:29pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Meh!
False.
Links please.
Soz

Post 2012 teachers have allowances included in pay and in other sectors when they talk of common payscale there's is just new steps added to the old one to make it seem that everyone is treated the same.When in reality a new entrant will start at point 1 while the older colleague pre 2011 would have started at point 7/8 of new scale.

evolving_doors · 07-05-2016 4:12pm

doc11 wrote: »

Post 2012 teachers have allowances included in pay

"Post February 2012 entrants to teaching are not entitled to qualification allowances."

doc11 wrote: »

...and in other sectors when they talk of common payscale there's is just new steps added to the old one to make it seem that everyone is treated the same.When in reality a new entrant will start at point 1 while the older colleague pre 2011 would have started at point 7/8 of new scale.

doc11 wrote: »

Meh, Teachers allowances have similarly been restored and new teachers now share a common pay scale with older colleagues.All smoke and mirrors

I suppose they would share the same pay... if the pre 2011 entrant could hop into a time machine and go back to pre 2011 and then start on point 1 of that scale.

doc11 · 07-05-2016 5:14pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

"Post February 2012 entrants to teaching are not entitled to qualification allowances."

I suppose they would share the same pay... if the pre 2011 entrant could hop into a time machine and go back to pre 2011 and then start on point 1 of that scale.

The allowance was added to the post 2011 scale, thats why theres a 2011-2012 salary scale without the allowance added.So obiviously you can't add it again.hence "Post February 2012 entrants to teaching are not entitled to qualification allowances." as they already have them included.

gaiscioch · 07-05-2016 5:44pm

Proud to be an ASTI member today. My €330.20 (€12.70 x 26) annual after tax payment to the ASTI could be feeling like value for the first time.

When I did the Dip, I distinctly remember the lecturer telling us that the ASTI were regarded as the "conservative" union, and the TUI as the "radical" union. The votes in recent years seem to be saying very much the opposite. When this all dies down - believe it or not, we're in our seventh year of cutbacks and inferior working conditions (see Review of cutbacks in budget 2009) - I firmly believe it should be a priority to end this nonsense of two unions representing secondary school teachers. We are the only ones to lose, and the government is the only group to win from this divide.

Icsics · 07-05-2016 5:47pm

Were u at CEC gaiscioch? What was the general feeling?

evolving_doors · 07-05-2016 7:56pm

doc11 wrote: »

The allowance was added to the post 2011 scale, thats why theres a 2011-2012 salary scale without the allowance added.So obiviously you can't add it again.hence "Post February 2012 entrants to teaching are not entitled to qualification allowances." as they already have them included.

Sure, sure. They also got a €100,000 bonus (but took a €110,000 paycut).

doc11 · 07-05-2016 8:30pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Sure, sure. They also got a €100,000 bonus (but took a €110,000 paycut).

Exactly like the firefighter example you used about pay being "restored".

acequion · 07-05-2016 10:55pm

Icsics wrote: »

Were u at CEC gaiscioch? What was the general feeling?

I was there. Approximately 80% of CEC members are willing to fight which I see as very positive. I felt energised after the meeting. So hang in there folks!

deiseindublin · 07-05-2016 11:30pm

Great to hear they're up for the fight.

Oh to be in ASTI!

feardeas · 08-05-2016 12:07am

acequion wrote: »

You are "at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on" Are you really for real? Where on earth have you been during the past six years of savage cuts to teachers' pay,conditions and education in general that the Govt/DES have been hell bent on? Maybe that might refresh your memory and explain the "reasoning" of the union who happen to represent teachers interests and thank god for the union and thank god for confrontation! I shudder to think where we would be without it!

And as for your "creative and productive" use of the 33 hours how about the following:
a] give them back to teachers who are parents so that they have more time with their children.
b] give them back to all teachers so that they get even a bit more time for the never ending to do list of correction, preparation, helping students etc
c] give them back to all teachers so that those who wish can spend time on extra curriculars.
d] basically give them back, because teachers have always willingly given over and above.

As for you wouldn't receive an increase and younger collegues wouldn't get a CID etc etc,let me just say we're all being threatened here. So let's all grow a pair and stand up to the threats. Otherwise those CID's and paltry increases will be worth nothing in an exhausting job of constant demands.

It is now almost midnight on Friday and I have to be up at 5am to travel to Dublin as I'm on the CEC of this "confrontational"union. Representing people with defeatist attitudes like yours quite frankly galls me!

I do apologise for annoying you. However I am a member of the ASTI and am worthy of an opinion on the issue as are you. Congratulations on your election to CEC and every best wish with that.

The like of me would never be elected because what you label as defeatist I would call being somewhat moderate. I attended two branch meetings recently and was rounded on for voicing a differing opinion in much the same way as has happened here. I don't mind that, I debated in college so hurly burly is nothing new to me. As an aside there were about 10 at the meetings I attended so I wonder if in many ways the CEC doesn't act as something of an echo chamber.

You list ways that the hours could be used many of them I do all the time and will continue to do so. Now I don't have children but I consider my time outside of work as just as valuable and am heartily sick of hearing people demean what I do from time to time with the line that my time is mine own given that I am not a parent. That is an aside and a token of my annoyance on that matter.

These hours being given back are 33 over the school year. I don't want to lose tuition time with my classes for parent teacher meetings etc nor do I want to be in a cycle of never ending dispute. That may be galling but it is my view and for the moment I am still a member of the ASTI voicing an opinion. It just mightn't be heard that much at the various committees or conferences because many of us know we wouldn't be listened to.

evolving_doors · 08-05-2016 12:36am

feardeas wrote: »

I do apologise for annoying you. However I am a member of the ASTI and am worthy of an opinion on the issue as are you. Congratulations on your election to CEC and every best wish with that.

The like of me would never be elected because what you label as defeatist I would call being somewhat moderate. I attended two branch meetings recently and was rounded on for voicing a differing opinion in much the same way as has happened here. I don't mind that, I debated in college so hurly burly is nothing new to me. As an aside there were about 10 at the meetings I attended so I wonder if in many ways the CEC doesn't act as something of an echo chamber.

You list ways that the hours could be used many of them I do all the time and will continue to do so. Now I don't have children but I consider my time outside of work as just as valuable and am heartily sick of hearing people demean what I do from time to time with the line that my time is mine own given that I am not a parent. That is an aside and a token of my annoyance on that matter.

These hours being given back are 33 over the school year. I don't want to lose tuition time with my classes for parent teacher meetings etc nor do I want to be in a cycle of never ending dispute. That may be galling but it is my view and for the moment I am still a member of the ASTI voicing an opinion. It just mightn't be heard that much at the various committees or conferences because many of us know we wouldn't be listened to.

I think what i find it hardest to understand is why someone would want to continue doing these CP hours when they finish in June. Is it because of the threats?

Also, I don't think our schools have become any more 'productive' since they were brought in. Can we take that as a given?

man_no_plan · 08-05-2016 8:48am

In a post croke park scenario when would the necessary meetings etc take place?

The hours have become a currency foe everything in schools with people wanting to use them for everything including corrections of mock exams.

It's like people have forgotten that we always worked hard and that things will be significantly easier if the hours are gone.

As for the TUI position, it was decided at Congress that they would let the government make the first move. I think that they have shown themselves to be very effective in the JC dispute. Its not like TUI teachers love croke park. Maybe there's no need for the confrontation.

If the ASTI ballot isnt carried there will be egg, everywhere.

deiseindublin · 08-05-2016 12:23pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

As for the TUI position, it was decided at Congress that they would let the government make the first move.

* Where on their website have they relayed to members that they're waiting to decide after Gov. makes first move? All I can see is a few job adverts?
* Why did they not vote on it at congress when there was a proposed motion?
* IF they decided not to vote on it, why did they not let us into their reasoning? I've googled every which way, gone through accounts of congress and spoken to people that were there and I basically still know nothing. Friend of mine that was there said it was a joke, some of the items discussed were farcical and then big issue just debated, lots of hot air, but no vote/show of hands.
* I'm a TUI member that has paid my sub every month for the last 20+ years and I think TUI need to start actually communicating with it's members, be it up to date newsletters, emails, fb, website. I'm at a total loss as to what, if anything is going on.

man_no_plan wrote: »

Maybe there's no need for the confrontation.

No need for the confrontation? Are you actually having a laugh? What do you call the Gov. pulling back on every agreement they've made in the last few years? What about their threats to us if we don't lie down and take every other change they want to make.

ALL second level teachers need to stand together on making sure CP hours don't reappear after the end of June, as per agreement, also pay scales, S&S money & increments.

man_no_plan · 08-05-2016 1:14pm

I think the ASTI approach is very confrontational, thats my opinion and im entitled to it. For example refusing to attend talks with the DES looks petty from an outsider point of view. That can't be ignored.

I also think that we rejected LRA and we will have to cross the bridge of what happens there when we get to it.

If the natural expiration of the Haddington Road agreement means the hours are gon then theres no need for a vote.

We need to be voting if the DES carry out their threats which, by the way, are only a recent development, we should have an all out strike for as long as it takes.

The JC dispute was won because public opinion was on our side. To my mind, as i said, the right thing to do is to react to the government action. The summer doesn't help of course.

deiseindublin · 08-05-2016 1:27pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

If the natural expiration of the Haddington Road agreement means the hours are gon then theres no need for a vote.

Why are TUI schools planning for CP hours so? Should the TUI not issue a statement and tell us that the hours are gone?

As it is on 8 May, we know nothing beyond whispers of a ballot on something, some time before end May.

man_no_plan · 08-05-2016 2:43pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Why are TUI schools planning for CP hours so? Should the TUI not issue a statement and tell us that the hours are gone?

As it is on 8 May, we know nothing beyond whispers of a ballot on something, some time before end May.

So what if they are, if they don't run in September then they don't run. Its not like all of these teachers are doing hours and hours of onerous planning for it.

Calendar is made, September comes, CP hours don't happen I presume.

Im not an apologist for the TUI either by the way, their website and communication leaves a lot to be desired. The lack of a government probably doesn't help and, as I said, the summer approaching is a problem.

Croke park hours wont be an issue until September. The threats issued last week will, presumably, be an issue from mid summer.

TheDriver · 08-05-2016 3:30pm

We have to "plan" them because we don't know the definites but why worry, its only a plan for "if".
I hope TUI follow Asti lead and it suits us that into are not because we can subsequently fight equal pay with NTs another day.
One side point us the half in half out isn't affected by this I think?

man_no_plan · 08-05-2016 3:44pm

TheDriver wrote: »

We have to "plan" them because we don't know the definites but why worry, its only a plan for "if".
I hope TUI follow Asti lead and it suits us that into are not because we can subsequently fight equal pay with NTs another day.
One side point us the half in half out isn't affected by this I think?

M58/04 is still in force alright. One staff meeting per term half in half out and 3ptms outside school. The remainder of ptms to be half in half out.

Icsics · 08-05-2016 3:51pm

I think the half in half out deal was part of benchmarking, seems like a lifetime ago now. But it's a good example of how we gave away conditions that we will never get back, for nominal increases that have been well & truly eroded by FEMPI/pension levy/usc. Vote YES to protect our working conditions!

joebloggs32 · 08-05-2016 3:57pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

M58/04 is still in force alright. One staff meeting per term half in half out and 3ptms outside school. The remainder of ptms to be half in half out.

The remainder of the PTM's would be fully during school time

acequion · 08-05-2016 4:08pm

feardeas wrote: »

I do apologise for annoying you. However I am a member of the ASTI and am worthy of an opinion on the issue as are you. Congratulations on your election to CEC and every best wish with that.

The like of me would never be elected because what you label as defeatist I would call being somewhat moderate. I attended two branch meetings recently and was rounded on for voicing a differing opinion in much the same way as has happened here. I don't mind that, I debated in college so hurly burly is nothing new to me. As an aside there were about 10 at the meetings I attended so I wonder if in many ways the CEC doesn't act as something of an echo chamber.

You list ways that the hours could be used many of them I do all the time and will continue to do so. Now I don't have children but I consider my time outside of work as just as valuable and am heartily sick of hearing people demean what I do from time to time with the line that my time is mine own given that I am not a parent. That is an aside and a token of my annoyance on that matter.

These hours being given back are 33 over the school year. I don't want to lose tuition time with my classes for parent teacher meetings etc nor do I want to be in a cycle of never ending dispute. That may be galling but it is my view and for the moment I am still a member of the ASTI voicing an opinion. It just mightn't be heard that much at the various committees or conferences because many of us know we wouldn't be listened to.

A few things here. Firstly,I am not a parent either. And I consider it preposterous that anyone would think that non parents /single people should automatically give more time to their jobs. That was the attitude of the nuns when I was a young teacher. But the nuns would also fight tooth and nail to get you a permanency. But back to the present. I think it scandalous that parents lose time with young children and on top of that have to pay extra child minding fees just to attend stupid, non productive extra meetings just because the likes of Sean O Foghlu says so.

Secondly,I don't like losing tuition time either. But I also don't like teaching ineffectively the day after a marathon P/T meeting [when you have 2-3 groups for example] because I'm so exhausted from working 10 hours full on the previous day up to perhaps 8 or 8.30pm. It should be about quality, don't you think?

Thirdly, of course you are entitled to your opinion but there is a time for moderate and a time for confrontational and most unfortunately now is the time when confrontation is not only desirable, it is one hundred per cent necessary. Suppose you were in a relationship with an abusive partner. Would you just put up and shut up or would you fight? Well we the teachers are finding ourselves in a very abusive relationship with our employer, the DES and for the past seven years they have abused us with ever more unreasonable demands, not to mention all the cuts. Shut up and put up and it won't stop. Confront and fight and it just might.

Now you might argue that it is not a relationship of equals as we are the mere employees and should meekly do as we're told. Unfortunately that top down attitude is becoming the prevailing culture and to the detriment of a non business profession like teaching where collegiality used to be the culture and where there was much more trust and respect for teachers than there is today.There is a nasty ill will towards teachers coming from our employer and propagated by the media. Unfortunately we have to be confrontational and cry halt.

I wish you well too. At the end of the day we are all teachers and all collegues.

joebloggs32 · 08-05-2016 4:14pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

* Where on their website have they relayed to members that they're waiting to decide after Gov. makes first move? All I can see is a few job adverts?
* Why did they not vote on it at congress when there was a proposed motion?
* IF they decided not to vote on it, why did they not let us into their reasoning? I've googled every which way, gone through accounts of congress and spoken to people that were there and I basically still know nothing. Friend of mine that was there said it was a joke, some of the items discussed were farcical and then big issue just debated, lots of hot air, but no vote/show of hands.
* I'm a TUI member that has paid my sub every month for the last 20+ years and I think TUI need to start actually communicating with it's members, be it up to date newsletters, emails, fb, website. I'm at a total loss as to what, if anything is going on.

No need for the confrontation? Are you actually having a laugh? What do you call the Gov. pulling back on every agreement they've made in the last few years? What about their threats to us if we don't lie down and take every other change they want to make.

ALL second level teachers need to stand together on making sure CP hours don't reappear after the end of June, as per agreement, also pay scales, S&S money & increments.

The TUI executive very clearly explained their course of action at congress. Their was an attempt by the Dublin branches in particular to try and change the course of action being taken by the union through an emergency motion heard on the last day, but this was defeated.
I'm sure if you were at a branch meeting your delegates could inform you about all that went on.
The TUI have been playing their cards close to their chest which is in my opinion no bad thing. As it stands we too are not doing croke park hours as we have rejected the LRA just like the ASTI. I don't see why they are even voting on this single issue, as they have by rejecting LRA essentially rejected croke park hours already.
The TUI executive told us at congress if they get a deal worthy of accepting they will recommend it (including something on croke park hours, posts, pay equality and casualisaton) and if its not then they'll recommend that we reject it.
Its obvious that the lack of a government has held up the negotiations.

acequion · 08-05-2016 4:17pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

In a post croke park scenario when would the necessary meetings etc take place?

The hours have become a currency foe everything in schools with people wanting to use them for everything including corrections of mock exams.

It's like people have forgotten that we always worked hard and that things will be significantly easier if the hours are gone.

As for the TUI position, it was decided at Congress that they would let the government make the first move. I think that they have shown themselves to be very effective in the JC dispute. Its not like TUI teachers love croke park. Maybe there's no need for the confrontation.

If the ASTI ballot isnt carried there will be egg, everywhere.

I don't want to drag this thread off topic but how on earth can you claim that TUI were "effective" in the JC dispute? There are a whole range of issues unresolved around the JC thing which is why the ASTI voted no to it. What you see as the TUI being effective, myself and many others in ASTI see as the TUI giving in and leaving us to fight on alone. And making it a hell of a lot more difficult for us in the process. And yes, you're right there will be egg everywhere, again because we're fighting this alone.

I really would hate to be a member of TUI which I consider ineffective in representing the unprecedented challenges facing second level teachers. I really hope in time there will be just one union.

man_no_plan · 08-05-2016 6:22pm

acequion wrote: »

I don't want to drag this thread off topic but how on earth can you claim that TUI were "effective" in the JC dispute? There are a whole range of issues unresolved around the JC thing which is why the ASTI voted no to it. What you see as the TUI being effective, myself and many others in ASTI see as the TUI giving in and leaving us to fight on alone. And making it a hell of a lot more difficult for us in the process. And yes, you're right there will be egg everywhere, again because we're fighting this alone.

I really would hate to be a member of TUI which I consider ineffective in representing the unprecedented challenges facing second level teachers. I really hope in time there will be just one union.

The TUI started the ball rolling on the recent industrial action, ASTI were, understandably, cautious as both unions had taken different paths on isdues historically.

There was a mandate to talk to the DES, the talks addressed the points of opposition and were accepted by the leadership of both unions, in good faith I think, but rejected by the members of ASTI. From a TUI point of view we got all the concessions we looked for.

ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

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