ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

deiseindublin

Well, ballot is closed finally, any predictions?

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, ballot is closed finally, any predictions?

70 30 YES
I've revised from my initial 60 40
really hope I'm right
massive day tomorrow

deiseindublin

I'd say it'll be 85 YES, hopefully anyway.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd say it'll be 85 YES, hopefully anyway.

don't think it will be that much of a majority
the silent ones will be voting for the money as per usual

maude6868

When will we know the result

deiseindublin

I'm guessing tomorrow, it's usually pretty immediate.

What membership has ASTI got? Turn out will be higher with new ballot distribution system.

coillsaille

km79 wrote: »

don't think it will be that much of a majority
the silent ones will be voting for the money as per usual

What worries me is those silent ones who are scared of any unrest are also often the ones who didn't 'get around' to voting when it was postal ballots. This time they will have voted as it was made much handier for them.

Inspector Coptoor

I'm gonna say an 80-85% turn out with a 75% yes vote.

mirrorwall14

Will it come out tonight or be tomorrow at this stage?

deiseindublin

Can't see it out tonight, really hoping TUIs wait til ASTI result is out to cast their ballots, and hopefully the Yes vote will give them courage to vote NO to our 'peach' of an agreement,

mirrorwall14

We don't have the ballots yet so we can't vote!

Zoibles

I've read through the entire thread and read anything directly related to my query regarding the ballot, so I'm hoping someone might be able to help.

I have been told already that I'm being granted my CID by my principal - news which came from the ETB main office in my area about 6 weeks ago. If this ballot doesn't go through (I'm TUI and would need to vote yes here for this purpose) how is it then fair to then take this CID back from me, and make me wait until 2018?! Surely this isn't right and cannot happen?!

deiseindublin

I think our came in today or yesterday, saw reps name on a big package, didn't suggest opening them though, want to wait for ASTI result before even mentioning it.

(On the TUI thing, I got an email doc from the new TUI NO Campaign after meeting I was at last nt, PM me if anybody here interested in it and I'll fwd the email.)

mirrorwall14

Zoibles wrote: »

I've read through the entire thread and read anything directly related to my query regarding the ballot, so I'm hoping someone might be able to help.

I have been told already that I'm being granted my CID by my principal - news which came from the ETB main office in my area about 6 weeks ago. If this ballot doesn't go through (I'm TUI and would need to vote yes here for this purpose) how is it then fair to then take this CID back from me, and make me wait until 2018?! Surely this isn't right and cannot happen?!

This is the issue-no one can tell you. According to the TUI head office people the government will rescind the ward report if we reject. The question is whether you believe the government are going to be willing to potentially breach contract law by reneging on contracts and piss off a whole host of young people.

I think the plight of the NQTs is particularly stark here in that they are pretty damned one way or the other.

TUI weren't even allowed to discuss NQTs and pay scales so there is nothing in the agreement for them.

In spite of that they are being told vote for the HRA because the alternative would involve strikes

Inspector Coptoor

Zoibles wrote: »

I've read through the entire thread and read anything directly related to my query regarding the ballot, so I'm hoping someone might be able to help.

I have been told already that I'm being granted my CID by my principal - news which came from the ETB main office in my area about 6 weeks ago. If this ballot doesn't go through (I'm TUI and would need to vote yes here for this purpose) how is it then fair to then take this CID back from me, and make me wait until 2018?! Surely this isn't right and cannot happen?!

Voting Yes would be like cutting off your nose despite your face.

I know a CID is an attractive piece of paper.

It's something I had to wait 10 years to get.

But, would you prefer to wait 2 more years and get a CID in a profession with decent terms and conditions?
OR
Would you prefer a CID now in what would be a yellow pack position with unfavorable terms and conditions?

We have to play the long game here, especially if you're going to have a 40 year career.

TheDriver

All appointments etc are always "may arise". Having said that, if you are good then you will get your CID like everyone else did up to last year. Its about the long game because promises aren't usually kept as we have learnt

mirrorwall14

Has anyone heard anything from ASTI? Nothing up on the website yet

coillsaille

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything from ASTI? Nothing up on the website yet

I would guess that the result will be announced around 4-5 ish. As far as I remember that was the time of day previous ballot results were announced. Although there's probably a lot more votes to count this time.

MrJones1973

If the result is Yes:




We shall go on to the end. We shall fight on the Junior cert, we shall fight on our terms and conditions, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength with the new entrants, we shall defend our jobs at whatever the cost may be. We shall fight in the staffroom, we shall fight on the teaching council, we shall fight in the classrooms and in the media , we shall fight in the Department; we shall never surrender

mirrorwall14

coillsaille wrote: »

I would guess that the result will be announced around 4-5 ish. As far as I remember that was the time of day previous ballot results were announced. Although there's probably a lot more votes to count this time.

Thanks. We just had our staff TUI meeting to hand out our ballots today and there was a question as to what the ASTI were voting on.

coillsaille

ASTI members have voted overwhelmingly to withdraw from the Croke Park hours by 68.5% to 31.5%. Turnout 76%.

km79

coillsaille wrote: »

ASTI members have voted overwhelmingly to withdraw from the Croke Park hours by 68.5% to 31.5%. Turnout 76%.

Fantastic news
An extra days holiday if nothing else

MacGyver007

A great result. With a strong turnout of 76%, it means that over half of the total membership voted in favour of withdrawing from the 33 hours. Now there's a mandate if ever I saw one! I hope that TUI members take note of this when voting.

man_no_plan

Zoibles wrote: »

I've read through the entire thread and read anything directly related to my query regarding the ballot, so I'm hoping someone might be able to help.

I have been told already that I'm being granted my CID by my principal - news which came from the ETB main office in my area about 6 weeks ago. If this ballot doesn't go through (I'm TUI and would need to vote yes here for this purpose) how is it then fair to then take this CID back from me, and make me wait until 2018?! Surely this isn't right and cannot happen?!

if you have the CID you have the CID. If the department rescind the circular on Ward then it will be back to a 4 year CID, but I wouldn't think that your contact wouldn't be issued. You can be awarded a CID on day one if the employer decides they want to give it to you. I'm not sure how much the ward report improved things anyway, if anything the interview at the end of year one makes it easier to get rid of someone.

man_no_plan

MacGyver007 wrote: »

A great result. With a strong turnout of 76%, it means that over half of the total membership voted in favour of withdrawing from the 33 hours. Now there's a mandate if ever I saw one! I hope that TUI members take note of this when voting.

It is a good thing that there is a strong turnout on an important issue like this. A lot of the talk on JC agreement was that a minority decided.

The next moves will be interesting, on both sides.

joebloggs32

man_no_plan wrote: »

It is a good thing that there is a strong turnout on an important issue like this. A lot of the talk on JC agreement was that a minority decided.

The next moves will be interesting, on both sides.

School based ballots are the only way to go to get a good turnout. We have them in the TUI and consistently have a high turnout. Very few refuse to vote when you personally hand them a ballot paper.

acequion

Delighted with the result! :)

coillsaille

I'm feeling quite proud to be an ASTI member this evening. It feels good to take a stand against bullying. Let's just hope the TUI vote NO now.
At least then all second level teachers will be standing together against this degradation of our profession.

Of course if all second level teachers were in just one union things would never have gotten this bad in the first place, but that's just my opinion.

MrJones1973

Ah but we have been here before...

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ah but we have been here before...

Ah but the ASTI has a different General Secretary.

feardeas

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

If the result is Yes:




We shall go on to the end. We shall fight on the Junior cert, we shall fight on our terms and conditions, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength with the new entrants, we shall defend our jobs at whatever the cost may be. We shall fight in the staffroom, we shall fight on the teaching council, we shall fight in the classrooms and in the media , we shall fight in the Department; we shall never surrender

Indeed. I wonder if like Nazi Germany there is not now the issue of opening up too many fronts and also it strikes me that like Churchill's country we may need some kind of Uncle Sam to come riding to the rescue and I don't mean the TUI.


Jesting aside and I realise I'm in a minority here and indeed indeed among colleagues I disagree with the result. I am very pleased with the high turn out and the result is as decisive as it could be. I wish those in leadership of the union all the best in the tasks that now lie ahead. In my view they are the protection of the terms and conditions that we work under and furthermore ensure that the payments that were negotiated as part of Hadington Road regarding S and S are delivered upon. I imagine that given our double rejection, in essence, of LRA that the payments under that particular document are now gone.

I also believe that the union now have an absolute duty to ensure that the two year CID is honoured for members. There is also an absolute requirement in my view that the issue of pay equasliation is now put front and centre. I have a colleague who has lost €32,000 in the last four years.

It will also be necessary that the union executive do something to ensure that members will not be discriminated against when seeking employment based on the fact that there is a directive against the new junior cycle.

While they are at it they might look at trying to improve the communication skills of those that take to the national airwaves and ensure that they might be able to deal with the odd tough question and curve ball. My last contribution on this thread, enjoy the summer everybody and let's hope it is going to be a mild autumn because I have a feeling we could be spending a fair bit of it in the fresh air.

To paraphrase Winnie again 'This is only the beginning of the beginning'

Zoibles

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Voting Yes would be like cutting off your nose despite your face.

I know a CID is an attractive piece of paper.

It's something I had to wait 10 years to get.

But, would you prefer to wait 2 more years and get a CID in a profession with decent terms and conditions?
OR
Would you prefer a CID now in what would be a yellow pack position with unfavorable terms and conditions?

We have to play the long game here, especially if you're going to have a 40 year career.

At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

mirrorwall14

Zoibles wrote: »

At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

Sorry but some of us waited 4 years for our CIDs. We are all too well aware of how important those damn CIDs are.

However that is a threat on CIDs. A threat. You are signing up to extra work for the next 40 years in response to a threat.

NQTs would be in the worst possible position if we agree to accept. You do know how the government got the new payscales in in the first place? We accepted a deal that did NOT include new payscales but PREVENTED us from taking industrial action. The government then introduced the new payscales and there was nothing we could do about it.

We would literally be doing exactly the same thing but worse if we accept this deal. This deal signs away our right to industrial action again. There is absolutely no incentive for the government to deal with NQTs if they get us to sign. There is no basis to believe them and they even refused to talk to the TUI about NQTs.

Finally, are you seriously saying we need to learn when to accept a deal?! We are the people who had vote multiple different times on the same agreement because we didn't give the "right" answer the first time. And here we are again voting on the same deal again!

political analyst

feardeas wrote: »

Indeed. I wonder if like Nazi Germany there is not now the issue of opening up too many fronts and also it strikes me that like Churchill's country we may need some kind of Uncle Sam to come riding to the rescue and I don't mean the TUI.

Technically, the Croke Park extra working time and the Junior Cycle change are separate issues but the ASTI is fighting on one front - to protect the integrity of the teaching profession.

political analyst

Zoibles wrote: »

At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

The integrity of the teaching profession is bigger than any particular teacher.

If the union doesn't fight, then your working conditions will stress you out to the point at which you'll prefer to be working as a teacher in Dubai or Australia.

Oh, by the way, here's an aside with regard to your mention of a mortgage: Not being able to get a mortgage in this country may be a blessing in disguise because the debt associated with it would be an albatross around your neck.

km79

Zoibles wrote: »

At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

2 things
1. With every successive "deal" conditions have indeed gotten worse. What makes you think this will stop with this new "deal". They have honored none of them
2. I wish I never got a mortgage

feardeas

km79 wrote: »

2 things
1. With every successive "deal" conditions have indeed gotten worse. What makes you think this will stop with this new "deal". They have honored none of them
2. I wish I never got a mortgage

Often wish the same until I realise that I will at some stage be finished paying for it........ in the distant future. Still better than paying rent for the rest of one's life. Plus rents are so high now particularly in our cities where most schools are located. [Note to Self definitely last post here now]

Zoibles

There were actually two votes to be cast during the week.

One on the Croke Park Issue. One on industrial action. Therefore our right to industrial action is not signed away.

My working conditions do not stress me out. What stresses me out is the opinions of my colleagues which are often misinformed. Others may have had to wait 4 years. OTHERS. The Ward Report came in and changed that. It became 2 years. For NQT's this was massive. Why would we want to revert to 4 if we could avoid it? This is our issue.

Personally, I don't believe there is any point in thinking of what was. We can only do the best with what we have as it will never revert to what it was. NQT's never had these glory years. We got the ****ty end of the pile, YET STILL chose to be part of the profession. How is it fair we work amongst people who do not even have their dip but are on the old pay scale? Yet we have our dip and even masters, therefore are more qualified, yet get no allowance and less pay. Yet, we shut up and put up, glad we have a job. So yes, the Ward Report, and job security is of the utmost importance to an NQT.

Regarding the mortgage - I and my husband have to live somewhere. Rent for me, is more expensive than a mortgage by far.

mirrorwall14

The industrial action vote is so that we do not have to vote a second time should the membership reject. There will be no industrial action if we accept.
Clause 4.2 of the agreement removes our right to strike. Have you read it?


I still pay rent. I was one of the last teachers to get a CID on the old rules and couldn't save for a mortgage for ages. Your situation is not unique but to use your own words-you are about to put up and shut up if you sign this agreement.

r93kaey5p2izun

I'm delighted for ASTI members and hope maybe this will strengthen the reserve of fearful TUI members. I can't believe anyone would sign up to another "deal" with this lot, who broke one already and are telling anyone who will listen that they are planning to break another. I find it baffling.

Withdrawal of the Ward circular will directly affect me but there's no way in good conscience, or even just basic soundness of mind, I could say yes to this pathetic proposal. No way will I be swayed by disgusting threats to sign away our right to strike action, giving carte blanche to this dishonest government to renege on more commitments and target the most vulnerable once again.

History Queen

Zoibles wrote: »

At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

I just had to reply to this as a young teacher myself. Yes....the Ward report may be recinded and Yes.....there may be tough times ahead, but, I, for one, am delighted to see teachers say that enough is enough.

I don't want a CID on unequal pay and with worsening working conditions. I hope i dont have to wait 4 years but if i do so be it.... my life too is on hold as i can't get a mortgage without a CID, but again I say we cannot be shortsighted.

...this is about more than me, or young teachers or retirees or croke park hours. This is a defining time for our profession. A time to shout "stop", a time to insist that our profession be restored to its rightful state rather than torn appart and turned in to a parttime job with little reward for work done. I can only hope that my own union vote as decisively as our ASTI colleagues to end this madness and fight for our rights.

deiseindublin

Madeline Repulsive Glass wrote: »

I can't believe anyone would sign up to another "deal" with this lot, who broke one already and are telling anyone who will listen that they are planning to break another. I find it baffling.

Absolutely baffling alright, why/how does anybody believe any deal that's being brokered will be upheld.

man_no_plan

Theres plenty of back slapping and self congratulation going on here today!

The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.

The ASTI will be engaged in industrial action from July 1st but nothing will emerge until September when schools reopen. At some point there will have to be talks on both the JC and on the issue of agreements and that's when the real test of the ASTI (and TUI if their vote is similar) will be. Where to from here?

s&s is a contractual obligation since 2013/2014, with pay due in two tranches in 16/17 and in 17/18 - it isn't specified in the HRA when the pay is due - will ASTI be refusing to do s/s?

Is the 30 cp hours the only thing changing for sure? Apart from our so called integrity?

Prediction: We will all be voting on this again before Christmas

deiseindublin

man_no_plan wrote: »

The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.

That's a given but at least ASTI are onto the next leg, count yourself lucky you're not in the TUI, our leadership jumped ship to the other side and we may well be stuck with it.

Inspector Coptoor

man_no_plan wrote: »

Theres plenty of back slapping and self congratulation going on here today!

The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.

The ASTI will be engaged in industrial action from July 1st but nothing will emerge until September when schools reopen. At some point there will have to be talks on both the JC and on the issue of agreements and that's when the real test of the ASTI (and TUI if their vote is similar) will be. Where to from here?

s&s is a contractual obligation since 2013/2014, with pay due in two tranches in 16/17 and in 17/18 - it isn't specified in the HRA when the pay is due - will ASTI be refusing to do s/s?

Is the 30 cp hours the only thing changing for sure? Apart from our so called integrity?

Prediction: We will all be voting on this again before Christmas

This relates solely to the 33 Croke Park Hours.

Bring on the fight in September.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

That's a given but at least ASTI are onto the next leg, count yourself lucky you're not in the TUI, our leadership jumped ship to the other side and we may well be stuck with it.

I do count myself lucky to be in the TUI

political analyst

Zoibles wrote: »

There were actually two votes to be cast during the week.

One on the Croke Park Issue. One on industrial action. Therefore our right to industrial action is not signed away.

My working conditions do not stress me out. What stresses me out is the opinions of my colleagues which are often misinformed. Others may have had to wait 4 years. OTHERS. The Ward Report came in and changed that. It became 2 years. For NQT's this was massive. Why would we want to revert to 4 if we could avoid it? This is our issue.

Personally, I don't believe there is any point in thinking of what was. We can only do the best with what we have as it will never revert to what it was. NQT's never had these glory years. We got the ****ty end of the pile, YET STILL chose to be part of the profession. How is it fair we work amongst people who do not even have their dip but are on the old pay scale? Yet we have our dip and even masters, therefore are more qualified, yet get no allowance and less pay. Yet, we shut up and put up, glad we have a job. So yes, the Ward Report, and job security is of the utmost importance to an NQT.

The new leadership of the ASTI means that you don't have to settle for second-best anymore.

Zoibles wrote: »

Regarding the mortgage - I and my husband have to live somewhere. Rent for me, is more expensive than a mortgage by far.

Look at the bright side - if you get a job in an area where rent is lower then you and your husband will be able to move there with a clean slate - unlike people whose homes have been repossessed and still have to pay back the balance of the mortgage after the bank has sold the houses at a loss.

Do you not care about the holistic aspect of secondary education? I benefited from it when I was a student and I still do by attending plays and musicals staged at my alma mater.

acequion

Zoibles wrote: »

There were actually two votes to be cast during the week.

One on the Croke Park Issue. One on industrial action. Therefore our right to industrial action is not signed away.

My working conditions do not stress me out. What stresses me out is the opinions of my colleagues which are often misinformed. Others may have had to wait 4 years. OTHERS. The Ward Report came in and changed that. It became 2 years. For NQT's this was massive. Why would we want to revert to 4 if we could avoid it? This is our issue.

Personally, I don't believe there is any point in thinking of what was. We can only do the best with what we have as it will never revert to what it was. NQT's never had these glory years. We got the ****ty end of the pile, YET STILL chose to be part of the profession. How is it fair we work amongst people who do not even have their dip but are on the old pay scale? Yet we have our dip and even masters, therefore are more qualified, yet get no allowance and less pay. Yet, we shut up and put up, glad we have a job. So yes, the Ward Report, and job security is of the utmost importance to an NQT.

Regarding the mortgage - I and my husband have to live somewhere. Rent for me, is more expensive than a mortgage by far.

I'm sorry but I detect a lot of self centredness in your comments. It is all about you and the plight of NQTs. Fine if you want to vote to be in LRA, that is entirely your prerogative and it is what makes these ballots democratic. I don't agree with your stance and would ask you to reconsider and to look at the bigger picture but I still respect whatever you choose to do.

However I don't like your casting aspersions on your collegues voting differently and complaining resentfully about the different payscales as if it was their fault. This is actually not all about you and NQTs. You are not the only ones suffering in this profession. I wonder if the inferior pay scale is giving you an inferior attitude, because you should not shut up and put up and be all grateful for crumbs. You might not be stressed by the demands of the job now but I doubt you'll feel the same in 15 or 20 years when you've less time and energy and your pay is still crap. The enemy here is your employer and not your older collegues.

So give in and accept shyte if you must. But please don't suggest we all follow suit.

deiseindublin

Any TUI dissidents, be great if you joined this group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1717839115137763/?fref=nf

MrJones1973

Let's not get too optimistic. We have been here before. De ja vu again! :-) Rejecting initial offers is always a good plan but we eventually give in. We tend to be afraid of real confrontation. We are passive/aggressive.

Close the schools a day a week until we have real big picture talks.