ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

What do you mean by the above?

I'd agree.
Anytime the ASTI are on air they get sucked into other 'hot topics'.
For example (going by last Pat Kenny interview with Christie ) if the debate is about CP then they get the usual whataboutery of 'bad teachers/massive starting salary/being afraid to correct students work/summer holidays/nobody getting fired/highest paid in Europe' etc. etc.

Sure, if you want to debate those points then lets debate , but at the moment if the topic is Croke Park then the ASTI representative should stick to Croke Park and gently remind the interviewer what the purpose of the discussion is.

Icsics

We had our ASTI branch meeting tonight.....usually we get 5/6, tonight the place was packed & there was a very real anger with ASTI head office. The general feeling was they are not proactive enough & give misleading info. I had been worried the ballot would not be carried, but I am very hopeful now that teachers are just sick of all the cuts & angry, so fingers crossed for the YES!

Benicetomonty

acequion wrote: »

What do you mean by the above?

Belief was that our reasons for objecting to JCT were valid but asti not effective at getting our views heard. We get slaughtered daily by the likes of Carl O Brien from the Irish Times and you very rarely see an alternative view. We were told that the president had written several letters on the subject and on others to the Times and Indo but werent published. The response to that was well what else have you got planned? No surprise the papers arent helping, so an effective campaign is going to have to happen, even if that means ads on sides of buses or door to door leaflets!

solerina

We had our school ASTI meeting yesterday, school steward gave out ballot papers, explained a bit about it. We voted and everyone gave back the ballots...100% of votes cast, that at least is something new. The vibe seemed to be vote YES at all costs !! Fingers crossed that's what most did.

gaiscioch

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Belief was that our reasons for objecting to JCT were valid but asti not effective at getting our views heard. We get slaughtered daily by the likes of Carl O Brien from the Irish Times and you very rarely see an alternative view. We were told that the president had written several letters on the subject and on others to the Times and Indo but werent published. The response to that was well what else have you got planned? No surprise the papers arent helping, so an effective campaign is going to have to happen, even if that means ads on sides of buses or door to door leaflets!

O'Brien, and The Irish Times generally, is brazen in his one-sidedness. Joe Humphreys before him was essentially a mouthpiece for the DoES, and moved from Education shortly after his embarrassing claim about how many ASTI members actually went on strike (front page story; apology hidden well within the paper). You'd think even that might get them questioning the reliability of the "information" which Seán Ó Foghlú (salary c. €200,000 per annum) and the Department of Education is feeding them. Nope. Martin Wall, too, is well on chorus. So much for our free press: freedom for them to promote their agenda and exclude all others who challenge it.

After all, what's balanced debate when by toeing the Department line without questioning the abject futility of the overwhelming majority of the Croke Park hours the indolent Irish Times journalists can fill all those pages with a steady stream of propaganda pieces. If Irish Times journalists started pointing out that tens of thousands of teachers are sitting around doing nothing under these so-called "reforms", those stories from the DoES would dry up quickly and they might have to work for their stories. Journalism, an awful little business.

gaiscioch

solerina wrote: »

We had our school ASTI meeting yesterday, school steward gave out ballot papers, explained a bit about it. We voted and everyone gave back the ballots...100% of votes cast, that at least is something new.

Finally, ASTI headquarters are being smart about getting the ballot out. Long overdue.

MrJones1973

Here is a media strategy that would work
I agree with stick to topic you are brought on to debate
Use Broadcast complaints procedures
Press complaint procedures

They have to reply
Bog them down in red tape. They will think twice about misleading stories. Karl O brien admitted to me he put inaccurate material on Paper. I called him.
Write Letters-most will not get published. I used to get letters and articles published.
But here is bottom line folks-you always lose public support in protracted Industrial Action. The people who count are in the Department-you piss off parents (school closures) and they complain to Department. If you dont have a back bone people then dont go out on strike.

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Here is a media strategy that would work
I agree with stick to topic you are brought on to debate
Use Broadcast complaints procedures
Press complaint procedures

They have to reply
Bog them down in red tape. They will think twice about misleading stories. Karl O brien admitted to me he put inaccurate material on Paper. I called him.
Write Letters-most will not get published. I used to get letters and articles published.
But here is bottom line folks-you always lose public support in protracted Industrial Action. The people who count are in the Department-you piss off parents (school closures) and they complain to Department. If you dont have a back bone people then dont go out on strike.

Agree - Its time people were proactive. particularly about inaccuracies in media. I will use complaint procedures from now on. The way things are reported is disgusting. Its a pity these people don't have integrity themselves and it has to be enforced by the general public via complaints........another example of how disappointingly arseways parts of society are.

maude6868

I was in a neighbouring staff room today and they were after having a meeting on the allocation of Croke Park Hours for next year and the majority of them were voting no, worried about financial hit. Why can't people understand that a financial hit can be answered with Industrial Action but conditions will stay with us forever. We can claw back money but will spend the rest of our working lives with these awful CP hours. Very worried about the result but will be the happiest person if I hear it is a YES vote.

deiseindublin

Also, the money is tiny if you divide by 3 to see net pay (which is what most full time teachers have to do).

MrJones1973

Remember Trust in established media is not as high as you think nor is Mainstream media-really that mainstream. How many of you know that Irish water borrowing costs are higher than the Governments? ie cheaper to fund through direct taxation. Or that meters didnt lead to conservation in Uk? I didnt. Had to dig that out from alternative media. BTw Im happy with a flat water charge and Irish Wate(one authority vs 26)-Im only using these unreported facts to illustrate the unreliability of the mass Media.

We should go out for a few weeks (strike). What we are doing is tinkering around edges. Nobody can afford a strike but very few teachers will be homeless say from a two week strike. The alternative is constant small skirmishes and waking up one day to find you are the proverbial frog on a frying pan.

acequion

maude6868 wrote: »

I was in a neighbouring staff room today and they were after having a meeting on the allocation of Croke Park Hours for next year and the majority of them were voting no, worried about financial hit. Why can't people understand that a financial hit can be answered with Industrial Action but conditions will stay with us forever. We can claw back money but will spend the rest of our working lives with these awful CP hours. Very worried about the result but will be the happiest person if I hear it is a YES vote.

I'll have to be anaesthetised if no wins! :eek:

MrJones1973

gaiscioch wrote: »

Finally, ASTI headquarters are being smart about getting the ballot out. Long overdue.

What way do you think People voted ?

maude6868

A problem I see is that lots of people voted before the recommended Yes from ASTI. My own colleagues from what I gather, mainly voted yes with about a third or less voting no.

gaiscioch

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

What way do you think People voted ?

70:30 in favour of 'Yes'/against Croke Park hours. The older members with families seem to be if anything more implacably opposed to the CP hours and clear that when June comes those hours are gone and are not going to be accepted by teachers again. That's the vast majority of my staffroom. Some of the younger single ones seem grateful for having a job and don't seem to have any sense of the quality of that job even five years down the road. There's much more fear among them this time and a willingness to believe the DoES propaganda of the past few weeks. There's also a fear that we're being hung out to dry and fight this all on our own now that the TUI has caved in. Despite all this, however, passionate opposition to CPH is the dominant mood.

(The naïve me still thinks that if the ASTI could highlight, with examples, the waste and inefficiency of these hours, the DoES would be unable to defend their existence, never mind their existence under the guise of being "reform". I've yet to hear a single politician highlight their stupidity.)

gaiscioch

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We should go out for a few weeks (strike). What we are doing is tinkering around edges. Nobody can afford a strike but very few teachers will be homeless say from a two week strike. The alternative is constant small skirmishes and waking up one day to find you are the proverbial frog on a frying pan.

I'm 100% with you there. These Croke Park hours are the modern-day equivalent of the Emperor's new clothes: waiting for somebody to expose these "reform" hours for the blindingly obvious waste and inefficiency that they are. As I said here in February 2015 after my last salary deduction because of striking: "I've reflected on where things are going for teachers and if I need to go on 10 more of those strike days in order to avoid working conditions I have settled my mind that I will do precisely that. I hope I am not alone. It's about €1000 to me after tax. That sum approximates to about 40 classes with my most dysfunctional, energy-draining class. That's an awful lot of pain I have to go through to get that money. However, like every other teacher I can find a cheaper, last minute holiday or save that money some other way. If all Irish teachers think about the bigger picture here, our profession will be safe. Once those conditions are gone, your career as you've known it is gone. Be smart/Don't be a myopic idiot."

I want to still be a teacher in five years time, not a classroom administrator filling out box-ticking, backside-covering pieces of paper for most of the hours between 9am and 6pm.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

I'm 100% with you there. These Croke Park hours are the modern-day equivalent of the Emperor's new clothes: waiting for somebody to expose these "reform" hours for the blindingly obvious waste and inefficiency that they are. As I said here in February 2015 after my last salary deduction because of striking: "I've reflected on where things are going for teachers and if I need to go on 10 more of those strike days in order to avoid working conditions I have settled my mind that I will do precisely that. I hope I am not alone. It's about €1000 to me after tax. That sum approximates to about 40 classes with my most dysfunctional, energy-draining class. That's an awful lot of pain I have to go through to get that money. However, like every other teacher I can find a cheaper, last minute holiday or save that money some other way. If all Irish teachers think about the bigger picture here, our profession will be safe. Once those conditions are gone, your career as you've known it is gone. Be smart/Don't be a myopic idiot."

I want to still be a teacher in five years time, not a classroom administrator filling out box-ticking, backside-covering pieces of paper for most of the hours between 9am and 6pm.

100 per cent with you gaiscioch!

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd agree.
Anytime the ASTI are on air they get sucked into other 'hot topics'.
For example (going by last Pat Kenny interview with Christie ) if the debate is about CP then they get the usual whataboutery of 'bad teachers/massive starting salary/being afraid to correct students work/summer holidays/nobody getting fired/highest paid in Europe' etc. etc.

Sure, if you want to debate those points then lets debate , but at the moment if the topic is Croke Park then the ASTI representative should stick to Croke Park and gently remind the interviewer what the purpose of the discussion is.

There should be no debate about the above points because there is nothing to debate. Such claims range from the ignorant to the stereotyipical to the exaggerated to the downright incorrect [eg highest paid in Europe] This kind of tripe is polluting the airwaves and print media because of the almost total lack of balance in Irish journalism. Only the other day I heard a text read out on local radio about the Gardai. Basically that they have jobs for life and they should put up and shut up.Surely there were heaps of more intelligent texts that could have been read out!

There are some excellent comments on here from posters who know their stuff,including yourself Gebgbegb, about the scandalously one sided, propaganda style reporting that characterises Irish media.One poster even gave examples of blatant inaccuracies. I actually find it sinister and I would not be so confident that the general public actually realise it, hence the constant ignorance towards and scapegoating of teachers and public servants out there and on social media as well. It's ironic that journalists fill their column inches accusing us of being a bunch of slackers when they are blatantly shirking their professional duty to report and comment responsibly.

And gaiscioch is right that we should be able to inform the public about the truth of the uselessness of CP hours and yes the unions should get their act together re publicity for our campaigns. But it is so sinisterly one sided that letters and articles don't get published. I sent in quite a few, none of which made it on to the pages. So, good advice above re using the complaints mechanisms.

Still, I wouldn't lose too much sleep re public opinion. We Irish are a woeful bunch of begrudgers and the perception is now out there [thanks to our friends in the media] that public servants are just a bunch of whingers, especially teachers with their long holidays,yawn, yawn. Our duty is to our profession, our collegues, our students and it is for them that we must fight, and to hell with what Joe public thinks.

km79

When is the result due ?
This is THE ONE
If it's a NO we can forget about it forever more
We have signed away our working conditions
If it's a YES it's by no means the end but we may retain some of them !

coillsaille

km79 wrote: »

When is the result due ?
This is THE ONE
If it's a NO we can forget about it forever more
We have signed away our working conditions
If it's a YES it's by no means the end but we may retain some of them !

Ballots have to returned to head office by May 18th if I remember correctly. So we should have a result by the 19th I would expect.

Sir123

I hope current ASTI (and now TUI) members vote a majority NO for the sake of themselves and future teachers. There is too much at stake and the current government has no clue of education nor that of the life of a new teacher earning inadequately less than their predecessors. I don't see the newly elected TDs starting on an inferior payscale. Am I wrong?
I mean enough is enough.

km79

Sir123 wrote: »

I hope current ASTI (and now TUI) members vote a majority NO for the sake of themselves and future teachers. There is too much at stake and the current government has no clue of education nor that of the life of a new teacher earning inadequately less than their predecessors. I don't see the newly elected TDs starting on an inferior payscale. Am I wrong?
I mean enough is enough.

You mean vote YES!
I'm very afraid a lot of people are making this mistake on the ballot papers !
In fairness it would have been better to word it something along the lines of "are you willing to continue with CP hours " so that the vote would then be NO

Sir123

km79 wrote: »

You mean vote YES!
I'm very afraid a lot of people are making this mistake on the ballot papers !
In fairness it would have been better to word it something along the lines of "are you willing to continue with CP hours " so that the vote would then be NO

Yeah I meant YES, apologies. Yes I agree. It seems so much easier to stand up and say no to something, hence my above reasoning on the matter.

I wonder what the general concensus was in staffrooms today regarding the vote?

MrJones1973

Remember ASTI members accepted HR despite CEC recommendation to vote No. I wonder if TUI members will vote No after being told to vote YES.

mirrorwall14

Just to throw this into the mix. At our TUI meeting tonight members of the executive explicitly said that legal advice is that a challenge to FEMPI will absolutely fail and that the ASTI will fail

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Remember ASTI members accepted HR despite CEC recommendation to vote No. I wonder if TUI members will vote No after being told to vote YES.

Do you think theres any chance that the ASTI will vote against the recommendation of the union and end up where TUI are now?

History Queen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Just to throw this into the mix. At our TUI meeting tonight members of the executive explicitly said that legal advice is that a challenge to FEMPI will absolutely fail and that the ASTI will fail

I was at a TUI meeting myself tonight but the above was not discussed, I'm curious though as surely the ASTI have had extensive legal advice before deciding to mount a legal challenge? Do you think that was a TUI defence of our unions inaction or that they genuinely believe that a challenge to FEMPI will fail?

man_no_plan

History Queen wrote: »

I was at a TUI meeting myself tonight but the above was not discussed, I'm curious though as surely the ASTI have had extensive legal advice before deciding to mount a legal challenge? Do you think that was a TUI defence of our unions inaction or that they genuinely believe that a challenge to FEMPI will fail?

They encouraged a vote against the LRA, theres no reason to change their minds on a whim.
To my knowledge rejection of the LRA was only ever a lever to get sectoral talks opened up, whatever we think of the outcome of those talks.

History Queen

man_no_plan wrote: »

They encouraged a vote against the LRA, theres no reason to change their minds on a whim.
To my knowledge rejection of the LRA was only ever a lever to get sectoral talks opened up, whatever we think of the outcome of those talks.

I'm not tring to be argumentative here but realistically what was the outcome of the talks? From my reading of the document it seems that the only outcome was "the big bad DES have scared us witless with threats so we're going to vote on LRA again but this time vote right...its ok though because the big bad DES *promise* robust reviews of our core issues"

Again this is not at all a personal attack but i feel betrayed by the union

mirrorwall14

History Queen wrote: »

I was at a TUI meeting myself tonight but the above was not discussed, I'm curious though as surely the ASTI have had extensive legal advice before deciding to mount a legal challenge? Do you think that was a TUI defence of our unions inaction or that they genuinely believe that a challenge to FEMPI will fail?

Honestly they seem to genuinely believe that there is absolutely no way the legal challenge will succeed.