ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

acequion

doc11 wrote: »

Pity that there's so many hiding behind the voluntary work of their colleagues. Many wouldn't know what Extra curricular meant unless it involved a paid post of responsibility.

What Extra Curricular work have you stopped Ethical?

Sorry but I really and truly resent this!! Firstly VOLUNTARY means just that.Something you do voluntarily, altruistically because it's what YOU want to do. if you decide you want to camp out on the night streets to help the homeless [something which many wonderful people do] am I a lesser person because I choose not to?

Secondly, just when are teachers going to get it in into their heads that extra curricular is actually free work.And NO WORKER should be put into a position where he feels pressurised into doing free work!!

Sadly, because of your attitude many teachers do. And also because of your attitude teachers are treated like doormats, hence one of the reasons for the sorry mess we're in.

Oh and by the way, there's nothing wrong with a paid post of responsibility! Payment for extra services is the norm in self respecting and respected professions.

acequion

ethical wrote: »

Croke PARK HOURS WERE PREDOMINANTLY a gravy train for 'retired' teachers to come into staffrooms and spoof sh1t at their colleagues for a couple of hours a few times a week after a long school day! Was/is that fair?

Unfortunately you sound like the teacher hating begrudgers with your talk of a "gravy train"

There is nothing wrong with a retired teacher or any able bodied, qualified individual receiving payment for services rendered. That has nothing to do with the overall objection to CP hours.

doc11

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

It's not about people hiding behind others. Although it can be frustrating at times, that the pool of teachers doing extra curricular activities may be small, you have to look at it in a positive light. If you spent your life viewing things in such a negative fashion, you'd never do anything!

That those who are willing to give, to do the extra, do. They make a real difference, whether it be gaa, soccer, rugby, badminton, basketball, history club, drama club, trips to matches, tours away. Unfortunately these people are doing pointless hours and have decided to curb their efforts in other beneficial areas. That's the real pity.

The vast majority of colleagues wouldn't know how to kick a ball never mind train a team(be that gaa, soccer, rugby, badminton, basketball... trips to matches). The assertion that there is thousands of teachers being held back from extra curricular activities is laughable. Imagine if CP hours included EC you'd just have more bitter apathetic colleagues tagging on to events for the sake of it sucking moral away from the more motivated. The good and voluntary nature would be gone, it would become a box ticking exercise. In reality when push comes to shove passively sitting in a room drinking tea would be up the street of many rather then having to actively engaging with students for an extra hour a week on EC/teaching. The unions know this too, hence CP hours.

gaiscioch

Just in case anybody is still mixing them up, this post from doc_17, who makes thoughtful, informed contributions to this forum (like this one and this one), might be relevant:

"doc11 is no relation of mine!"

Carry on.

man_no_plan

gaiscioch wrote: »

Just in case anybody is still mixing them up, this post from doc_17, who makes thoughtful, informed contributions to this forum (like this one and this one), might be relevant:

"doc11 is no relation of mine!"

Carry on.

I thought all the docs were the Same!

In fairness though there is truth to what doc11 says.

Okay extra curricular is voluntary and thats fine some people will never want to do it.

It is the case though that no competition had been cancelled or no events curtailed because schools aren't participating.

The least of my worry with croke park is extra curricular or a well experienced teacher sharing some of their knowledge with a staff.

Unfortunately nowadays every issue has to be divisive. You either agree fully or disagree fully around here.

The arguments ethical makes are all red herrings, not just in relation to croke park hours.

If we are going to make a logical case against the hours or for alterations to them we need to grow up a bit and be honest.

Chilli Con Kearney

doc11 wrote: »

The vast majority of colleagues wouldn't know how to kick a ball never mind train a team(be that gaa, soccer, rugby, badminton, basketball... trips to matches). The assertion that there is thousands of teachers being held back from extra curricular activities is laughable. Imagine if CP hours included EC you'd just have more bitter apathetic colleagues tagging on to events for the sake of it sucking moral away from the more motivated. The good and voluntary nature would be gone, it would become a box ticking exercise. In reality when push comes to shove passively sitting in a room drinking tea would be up the street of many rather then having to actively engaging with students for an extra hour a week on EC/teaching. The unions know this too, hence CP hours.

I really don't care if this is against the forum rules or not. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you're another Pat Kenny with a chip on your shoulder. I'm sick to the teeth of lads like you bailing in here and spouting tripe. You're obviously entitled to an opinion, but it must be based on facts. But sure, belt on there talking rubbish, it's hilariously off target.

I'm telling you that I've cut back on extra sports as I'm doing the extra hours. Coaches from Leinster who help me out have noticed this and know it's because of the hours. I still love doing the sports and will do it, but less. Many colleagues have done the same.

doc11

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I really don't care if this is against the forum rules or not. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you're another Pat Kenny with a chip on your shoulder. I'm sick to the teeth of lads like you bailing in here and spouting tripe. You're obviously entitled to an opinion, but it must be based on facts. But sure, belt on there talking rubbish, it's hilariously off target.

I'm telling you that I've cut back on extra sports as I'm doing the extra hours. Coaches from Leinster who help me out have noticed this and know it's because of the hours. I still love doing the sports and will do it, but less. Many colleagues have done the same.

Why attack me when only a few post up acequion rubbishes extra cirricular activities as analogous to camping out on the streets. she certainly doesn't value you or your colleagues valuable contributions to school life.

acequion wrote: »

Sorry but I really and truly resent this!! Firstly VOLUNTARY means just that.Something you do voluntarily, altruistically because it's what YOU want to do. if you decide you want to camp out on the night streets to help the homeless [something which many wonderful people do] am I a lesser person because I choose not to?

Secondly, just when are teachers going to get it in into their heads that extra curricular is actually free work.And NO WORKER should be put into a position where he feels pressurised into doing free work!!

Sadly, because of your attitude many teachers do. And also because of your attitude teachers are treated like doormats, hence one of the reasons for the sorry mess we're in.

So in essence everyone should stop doing extra circular activities to make those who currently contribute nothing feel better. The pressure of doing nothing is getting to much for some.:pac:

Chilli Con Kearney

doc11 wrote: »

Why attack me when only a few post up acequion rubbishes extra cirricular activities as analogous to camping out on the streets. she certainly doesn't value you or your colleagues valuable contributions to school life.


So in essence everyone should stop doing extra circular activities to make those who currently contribute nothing feel better. The pressure of doing nothing is getting to much for some.:pac:

Good man. You're really showing how little you know. She was referring to the extra curricular activity of taking kids out for overnight camps on the street, eg belvedere doing their annual Christmas night. You really haven't a clue. Go off and inform yourself then come back.

evolving_doors

Ya look you don't spend 5 odd years studying your subject and then Teach your subject... and then be expected to start doing EC.
If you do it then fair enough.
If you're expected to do it (music teachers, PE teachers know the score) then 'typically' it's agreed upon during interview.
If you don't do it then no problem you're employed to teach the curriculum.

doc11

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Good man. You're really showing how little you know. She was referring to the extra curricular activity of taking kids out for overnight camps on the street, eg belvedere doing their annual Christmas night. You really haven't a clue. Go off and inform yourself then come back.

I know, but that's not the point. It's more of a selfish you can do what to want but I won't be helping you type attitude that I'm getting at .You could be curing cancer in the lab and they wouldn't help you unless they were getting a pound of silver. But if you found the cure(without them) they'd still use it as a way to justify an increase in there own pay.

doc11

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ya look you don't spend 5 odd years studying your subject and then Teach your subject... and then be expected to start doing EC.
If you do it then fair enough.
If you're expected to do it (music teachers, PE teachers know the score) then 'typically' it's agreed upon during interview.
If you don't do it then no problem you're employed to teach the curriculum.

Sorry But If you're in an interview and asked about doing EC there's only one right answer. To think that a young teacher could somehow say no and still be hired to teach the curriculum is naive, with so little separating young eager candidates chances are if you say no someone else will be hired in your place(the yes man).

Chilli Con Kearney

doc11 wrote: »

I know, but that's not the point. It's more of a selfish you can do what to want but I won't be helping you type attitude that I'm getting at .You could be curing cancer in the lab and they wouldn't help you unless they were getting a pound of silver. But if you found the cure(without them) they'd still use it as a way to justify an increase in there own pay.

Right, so the fact that it's voluntary seems to be lost on you. Teachers do not have to, but choose to do it. There's a history and culture of it in Irish teaching, that you don't get in other countries. But that's beside the point it seems.

I think you're implying that teachers who CHOOSE not to do extra curricular activities are using the work of those who do, as leverage. That's a serious accusation. Can you show me an example please?

evolving_doors

doc11 wrote: »

Sorry But If you're in an interview and asked about doing EC there's only one right answer. To think that a young teacher could somehow say no and still be hired to teach the curriculum is naive, with so little separating young eager candidates chances are if you say no someone else will be hired in your place(the yes man).

The bolded part implied that you were already teaching... Which is what you were also referring to when you accused teachers who don't do EC as 'hiding'.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The bolded part implied that you were already teaching... Which is what you were also referring to when you accused teachers who don't do EC as 'hiding'.

This debate, if you could call it a debate, is going nowhere.

It is a fact that many teachers do extra curricular in schools.

It is a fact that many do not.

It is also often the case that the teachers who do extra curricular work very hard in the classroom also.

It is not the case that if you dont do extra curricular you're a bad teacher or a lazy teacher or both.

There is however, as there is in every sector / profession / organisation, a small number who do the bare minimum. This, unfortunately, is often not restricted to extra work and it can be a struggle to get them to do anything.

In my own experience the most committed to extra curricular are not the new ones trying to make an impression. I also know that everyone can't give the same commitment all the time as their circumstances change.

I also know, from my personal experience, that you can often have teachers actively work against colleagues in relation extra curricular but are happy to sit on the front row and have pictures taken for the paper regardless of their contribution.

The point is its not unique to teaching and it doesn't help matters in relation to where we are now but it is a reality whether we want to admit it or not.

acequion

doc11 wrote: »

Why attack me when only a few post up acequion rubbishes extra cirricular activities as analogous to camping out on the streets. she certainly doesn't value you or your colleagues valuable contributions to school life.




So in essence everyone should stop doing extra circular activities to make those who currently contribute nothing feel better. The pressure of doing nothing is getting to much for some.:pac:

The obtuse nature of the remarks in this post has me wondering if they really are being written by an educated,professional person!

Disagreeing with my earlier post is fine. Twisting my sentiments the way you have done, is obnoxious.Whoever you are you seem to have a very low opinion of your collegues and zero respect for their opinions or for their rights as fellow workers.

For the record, I totally value and respect my collegues,unlike you from the scathing tone of your posts, ie that they do "nothing" wouldn't know how to "kick a ball or train a team" Who the hell are you to denigrate teachers like that! Such an attitude contributes nothing to anything. So perhaps look inwards before you go judging others.

As for EC activities, they are VOLUNTARY. They are an unpaid extra and no teacher should be forced into them against his /her will. It should be a case of if you do them,fine. If you don't do them,also fine. How can anybody not see the logic in that! Insulting ones collegues and denigrating their professional worth because they choose to do their job, but not extra, is completely out of order.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

I thought all the docs were the Same!

In fairness though there is truth to what doc11 says.

Okay extra curricular is voluntary and thats fine some people will never want to do it.

It is the case though that no competition had been cancelled or no events curtailed because schools aren't participating.

The least of my worry with croke park is extra curricular or a well experienced teacher sharing some of their knowledge with a staff.

Unfortunately nowadays every issue has to be divisive. You either agree fully or disagree fully around here.

The arguments ethical makes are all red herrings, not just in relation to croke park hours.

If we are going to make a logical case against the hours or for alterations to them we need to grow up a bit and be honest.

Though I agree with a lot in this post,I don't agree with the last bit. I think most people are honest and have clearly stated that they want rid of these hours because they are an imposition. They are a forced detention of teachers and I think the majority don't want a "productive" use of them,they just want them gone.

Also, divisiveness is inevitable. But at the end of the day everyone will accept the outcome of the ballots, regardless of how they might feel. That's democracy.

Chilli Con Kearney

man_no_plan wrote: »

This debate, if you could call it a debate, is going nowhere.

It is a fact that many teachers do extra curricular in schools.

It is a fact that many do not.

It is also often the case that the teachers who do extra curricular work very hard in the classroom also.

It is not the case that if you dont do extra curricular you're a bad teacher or a lazy teacher or both.

There is however, as there is in every sector / profession / organisation, a small number who do the bare minimum. This, unfortunately, is often not restricted to extra work and it can be a struggle to get them to do anything.

In my own experience the most committed to extra curricular are not the new ones trying to make an impression. I also know that everyone can't give the same commitment all the time as their circumstances change.

I also know, from my personal experience, that you can often have teachers actively work against colleagues in relation extra curricular but are happy to sit on the front row and have pictures taken for the paper regardless of their contribution.

The point is its not unique to teaching and it doesn't help matters in relation to where we are now but it is a reality whether we want to admit it or not.

It's been going nowhere for a while. I'm just interested and enjoying the approach of doc. The latest "have a pop at the teachers" merchant. Another "I was in school, so I know what teaching involves" lad.

In a way, I'd like to see some of those lads tell us what they do so we can slag off and denigrate them and their jobs. But I've yet to see many. We will never get sympathy from many quarters but sometimes you just have to go back at the lads who spout rubbish.

Any who, do people reckon we will have a result before the week is out?

deiseindublin

I'd say it'll be out on Thursday, the sooner the better for us NO to TUI ballot voters.

gaiscioch

Regarding the scaremongering from Seán Ó Foghlú (annual salary c. €200,000) and the DoES/Irish Times, when they claim teachers and gardaí will be exempt from salary increases such as being proposed for nurses or doctors if they refuse to do the Croke Park hours, we've this slip-up this morning in the arsenal:

"The last agreement was fine but it was a kind of across the board agreement that didn’t fully reflect the different pressures,” one source said. “The obvious thing was the health service, facing particularly difficult recruitment pressures. It just couldn’t get people, which doesn’t apply to teachers, doesn’t apply to guards, doesn’t apply elsewhere in the public service."

In essence, as a simple matter of demand and supply teachers were never going to get these increases, no matter what is now being claimed in order to bully us out of opposing the LRA/Croke Park hours.

Public sector pay rise could be as high as 6.5%

man_no_plan

gaiscioch wrote: »

Regarding the scaremongering from Seán Ó Foghlú (annual salary c. €200,000) and the DoES/Irish Times, when they claim teachers and gardaí will be exempt from salary increases such as being proposed for nurses or doctors if they refuse to do the Croke Park hours, we've this slip-up this morning in the arsenal:

"The last agreement was fine but it was a kind of across the board agreement that didn’t fully reflect the different pressures,” one source said. “The obvious thing was the health service, facing particularly difficult recruitment pressures. It just couldn’t get people, which doesn’t apply to teachers, doesn’t apply to guards, doesn’t apply elsewhere in the public service."

In essence, as a simple matter of demand and supply teachers were never going to get these increases, no matter what is now being claimed in order to bully us out of opposing the LRA/Croke Park hours.

Public sector pay rise could be as high as 6.5%

Was that not more to do with the deal the INMO cut about hiring new staff and staffing levels generally.

deiseindublin

Well, ballot is closed finally, any predictions?

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, ballot is closed finally, any predictions?

70 30 YES
I've revised from my initial 60 40
really hope I'm right
massive day tomorrow

deiseindublin

I'd say it'll be 85 YES, hopefully anyway.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd say it'll be 85 YES, hopefully anyway.

don't think it will be that much of a majority
the silent ones will be voting for the money as per usual

maude6868

When will we know the result

deiseindublin

I'm guessing tomorrow, it's usually pretty immediate.

What membership has ASTI got? Turn out will be higher with new ballot distribution system.

coillsaille

km79 wrote: »

don't think it will be that much of a majority
the silent ones will be voting for the money as per usual

What worries me is those silent ones who are scared of any unrest are also often the ones who didn't 'get around' to voting when it was postal ballots. This time they will have voted as it was made much handier for them.

Inspector Coptoor

I'm gonna say an 80-85% turn out with a 75% yes vote.

mirrorwall14

Will it come out tonight or be tomorrow at this stage?

deiseindublin

Can't see it out tonight, really hoping TUIs wait til ASTI result is out to cast their ballots, and hopefully the Yes vote will give them courage to vote NO to our 'peach' of an agreement,