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ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

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    #242
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Zoibles wrote: »
    At the moment... As an NQT who is not just right out of college, my life is depending on CID. Unless I have CID I will not get a mortgage - Which means thousands of euros for the next two years will be pumped into rent. If I get a mortgage, I would be paying less money than I currently pay on rent.

    NQT's are already in the worst position. We do the Croke Park Hours - hours which were introduced in order to prevent permanent teachers taking a paycut. We got the cut an the hours. We do more work for less money. We do not get degree or dip allowances.

    Conditions cannot get any worse for an NQT.

    For those with CID and permanent positions it is easy to over the importance of the Ward Report. Sure, it may not affect it, it may be scare mongering - but we do not know for sure. If people cared as much as they claim to about NQT and equal payscales they might have thought as little more about their vote before they cast.

    Unfortunately I don't believe waiting another two years will get us the decent conditions we want. I think we need to learn when to accept a deal, and begin negotiations again - the government are never going to hand us what we want in one fowl swoop.

    Little by little... slowly but surely... and all the rest.

    I just had to reply to this as a young teacher myself. Yes....the Ward report may be recinded and Yes.....there may be tough times ahead, but, I, for one, am delighted to see teachers say that enough is enough.

    I don't want a CID on unequal pay and with worsening working conditions. I hope i dont have to wait 4 years but if i do so be it.... my life too is on hold as i can't get a mortgage without a CID, but again I say we cannot be shortsighted.

    ...this is about more than me, or young teachers or retirees or croke park hours. This is a defining time for our profession. A time to shout "stop", a time to insist that our profession be restored to its rightful state rather than torn appart and turned in to a parttime job with little reward for work done. I can only hope that my own union vote as decisively as our ASTI colleagues to end this madness and fight for our rights.


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    #243
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Madeline Repulsive Glass wrote: »
    I can't believe anyone would sign up to another "deal" with this lot, who broke one already and are telling anyone who will listen that they are planning to break another. I find it baffling.
    Absolutely baffling alright, why/how does anybody believe any deal that's being brokered will be upheld.


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    #244
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Theres plenty of back slapping and self congratulation going on here today!

    The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.

    The ASTI will be engaged in industrial action from July 1st but nothing will emerge until September when schools reopen. At some point there will have to be talks on both the JC and on the issue of agreements and that's when the real test of the ASTI (and TUI if their vote is similar) will be. Where to from here?

    s&s is a contractual obligation since 2013/2014, with pay due in two tranches in 16/17 and in 17/18 - it isn't specified in the HRA when the pay is due - will ASTI be refusing to do s/s?

    Is the 30 cp hours the only thing changing for sure? Apart from our so called integrity?

    Prediction: We will all be voting on this again before Christmas


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    #245
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.
    That's a given but at least ASTI are onto the next leg, count yourself lucky you're not in the TUI, our leadership jumped ship to the other side and we may well be stuck with it.


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    #246
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Theres plenty of back slapping and self congratulation going on here today!

    The hard work wasn't going to be the ballot, it's what comes next.

    The ASTI will be engaged in industrial action from July 1st but nothing will emerge until September when schools reopen. At some point there will have to be talks on both the JC and on the issue of agreements and that's when the real test of the ASTI (and TUI if their vote is similar) will be. Where to from here?

    s&s is a contractual obligation since 2013/2014, with pay due in two tranches in 16/17 and in 17/18 - it isn't specified in the HRA when the pay is due - will ASTI be refusing to do s/s?

    Is the 30 cp hours the only thing changing for sure? Apart from our so called integrity?

    Prediction: We will all be voting on this again before Christmas

    This relates solely to the 33 Croke Park Hours.

    Bring on the fight in September.


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    #247
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    That's a given but at least ASTI are onto the next leg, count yourself lucky you're not in the TUI, our leadership jumped ship to the other side and we may well be stuck with it.

    I do count myself lucky to be in the TUI


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    #248
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Zoibles wrote: »
    There were actually two votes to be cast during the week.

    One on the Croke Park Issue. One on industrial action. Therefore our right to industrial action is not signed away.

    My working conditions do not stress me out. What stresses me out is the opinions of my colleagues which are often misinformed. Others may have had to wait 4 years. OTHERS. The Ward Report came in and changed that. It became 2 years. For NQT's this was massive. Why would we want to revert to 4 if we could avoid it? This is our issue.

    Personally, I don't believe there is any point in thinking of what was. We can only do the best with what we have as it will never revert to what it was. NQT's never had these glory years. We got the ****ty end of the pile, YET STILL chose to be part of the profession. How is it fair we work amongst people who do not even have their dip but are on the old pay scale? Yet we have our dip and even masters, therefore are more qualified, yet get no allowance and less pay. Yet, we shut up and put up, glad we have a job. So yes, the Ward Report, and job security is of the utmost importance to an NQT.
    The new leadership of the ASTI means that you don't have to settle for second-best anymore.
    Zoibles wrote: »
    Regarding the mortgage - I and my husband have to live somewhere. Rent for me, is more expensive than a mortgage by far.

    Look at the bright side - if you get a job in an area where rent is lower then you and your husband will be able to move there with a clean slate - unlike people whose homes have been repossessed and still have to pay back the balance of the mortgage after the bank has sold the houses at a loss.

    Do you not care about the holistic aspect of secondary education? I benefited from it when I was a student and I still do by attending plays and musicals staged at my alma mater.


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    #249
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭acequion


    Zoibles wrote: »
    There were actually two votes to be cast during the week.

    One on the Croke Park Issue. One on industrial action. Therefore our right to industrial action is not signed away.

    My working conditions do not stress me out. What stresses me out is the opinions of my colleagues which are often misinformed. Others may have had to wait 4 years. OTHERS. The Ward Report came in and changed that. It became 2 years. For NQT's this was massive. Why would we want to revert to 4 if we could avoid it? This is our issue.

    Personally, I don't believe there is any point in thinking of what was. We can only do the best with what we have as it will never revert to what it was. NQT's never had these glory years. We got the ****ty end of the pile, YET STILL chose to be part of the profession. How is it fair we work amongst people who do not even have their dip but are on the old pay scale? Yet we have our dip and even masters, therefore are more qualified, yet get no allowance and less pay. Yet, we shut up and put up, glad we have a job. So yes, the Ward Report, and job security is of the utmost importance to an NQT.

    Regarding the mortgage - I and my husband have to live somewhere. Rent for me, is more expensive than a mortgage by far.

    I'm sorry but I detect a lot of self centredness in your comments. It is all about you and the plight of NQTs. Fine if you want to vote to be in LRA, that is entirely your prerogative and it is what makes these ballots democratic. I don't agree with your stance and would ask you to reconsider and to look at the bigger picture but I still respect whatever you choose to do.

    However I don't like your casting aspersions on your collegues voting differently and complaining resentfully about the different payscales as if it was their fault. This is actually not all about you and NQTs. You are not the only ones suffering in this profession. I wonder if the inferior pay scale is giving you an inferior attitude, because you should not shut up and put up and be all grateful for crumbs. You might not be stressed by the demands of the job now but I doubt you'll feel the same in 15 or 20 years when you've less time and energy and your pay is still crap. The enemy here is your employer and not your older collegues.

    So give in and accept shyte if you must. But please don't suggest we all follow suit.


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    #250
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Any TUI dissidents, be great if you joined this group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1717839115137763/?fref=nf


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    #251
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Let's not get too optimistic. We have been here before. De ja vu again! :-) Rejecting initial offers is always a good plan but we eventually give in. We tend to be afraid of real confrontation. We are passive/aggressive.

    Close the schools a day a week until we have real big picture talks.


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    #252
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Let's not get too optimistic. We have been here before. De ja vu again! :-) Rejecting initial offers is always a good plan but we eventually give in. We tend to be afraid of real confrontation. We are passive/aggressive.

    Close the schools a day a week until we have real big picture talks.

    That's only the beginning of what will have to happen and thats before yoi talk about the new JC which has all but been forgotten about. There's too much going on here, what is the real issue?


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    #253
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    The real issues are stop bull **** initiatives
    Move towards a restoration of posts
    Two pay scales and gradually move towards one within a five year frame
    Croke park hours gone forever.

    You have absolutely no chance for any of the above without a prolonged and bitter strike. Dont kid yourselves otherwise.


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    #254
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The real issues are stop bull **** initiatives
    Move towards a restoration of posts
    Two pay scales and gradually move towards one within a five year frame
    Croke park hours gone forever.

    You have absolutely no chance for any of the above without a prolonged and bitter strike. Dont kid yourselves otherwise.

    I think the govt would yield on CP hours TBH in return for concessions from us on JC reform and some of the above .......they only came out so strong on them as it was the first battle ......sure look at the guards......


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    #255
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    km79 wrote: »
    I think the govt would yield on CP hours TBH in return for concessions from us on JC reform and some of the above .......they only came out so strong on them as it was the first battle ......sure look at the guards......

    To acquiesce on one for the sake of another is an abandonment of principle.

    CP ends in June, that's the agreement, it's for the govt. to break the agreement and invoke FEMPI. No need for ' talks'.


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    #256
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭acequion


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The real issues are stop bull **** initiatives
    Move towards a restoration of posts
    Two pay scales and gradually move towards one within a five year frame
    Croke park hours gone forever.

    You have absolutely no chance for any of the above without a prolonged and bitter strike. Dont kid yourselves otherwise.

    Don't forget JC reform,which I consider HUGE.I'd be holding out for higher quality terminal exams with a higher and ordinary paper in every subject,pretty much along the lines of what we currently have.I would compromise on CBA's, ok if they must be marked by the teacher but leave the teacher alone and trust his /her professionalism. So I wouldn't even entertain these SLARs. These are a training ground for 100 teacher assessment down the line, have no illusions there!! And I would also insist on an externally assessed oral for modern langauges.

    And I agree that it will take a long and bitter strike,but hell I'm up for it!!


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    #257
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    acequion wrote: »
    Don't forget JC reform,which I consider HUGE.I'd be holding out for higher quality terminal exams with a higher and ordinary paper in every subject,pretty much along the lines of what we currently have.I would compromise on CBA's, ok if they must be marked by the teacher but leave the teacher alone and trust his /her professionalism. So I wouldn't even entertain these SLARs. These are a training ground for 100 teacher assessment down the line, have no illusions there!! And I would also insist on an externally assessed oral for modern langauges.

    And I agree that it will take a long and bitter strike,but hell I'm up for it!!
    What are slrs ? Learning outcomes?TUI cave in not great for us but we know the gov game plan by now. They will offer us the same tweak. I wonder how they will offer some teachers cids under ward but not others . Is that legal ? TUI teachers?


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