EL Semi Final 1st leg, Villarreal v Liverpool, BT and Setanta 20:05pm

Andersonisgod · 28-04-2016 11:47pm

Demosthenese wrote: »

So you see things that others do not ... clap clap ... please, pretending you see more than you do while watching on the tv than in RL is a joke. Horizontal runs across the width of the box ... gas stuff. A bit like his counter clockwise movement in the last third while deeply penetrating the line between the midfield and backline ... Pffft.

Lets compare them to Simeone's team ... no wait you've already attempted that joke before.

Hope you are all on the batter lads.

Where did I say that. Please quote or leave. Horizontal runs with runners from deep anticipating a lay off repeatedly is simply an example of a move that has clearly been rehearsed.

So no manager can be praised unless they deploy ultra defensive tactics because, apparently, those are the only tactics that constitute anything approaching a "masterplan." I'm not even saying Marcelino is as good a coach as Simeone, only that he deserves credit. He's taken this club from the doldrums of the 2nd division to a night that, he himself said post match, would not have been imaginable 3 years ago. This isn't a club with massive resources and yet they play a fantastic brand of football, are on course to finish 4th in the best damn league in the world and could even finish the season in a European Cup Final so how about you take your Internet negativity and tell it to someone who cares because this night is Villareal's and it's Marcelino's and they bloody deserve it!

HardenendMan · 28-04-2016 11:48pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Darn, I thought I was close to converting someone to Andersonism.

I do manage a team btw. Of course at a professional level it's a million miles different, and of course analysis is easier than forming strategy beforehand, afterall as far as I'm aware nobody on this Board coaches a top level club. Though you don't have to be a top level coach to spot recurring patterns to know what's been worked on and what hasn't, and this Villareal side is marches to the beat of Marcelino's tune.

That's fair enough, I'm not a top coach by any means. But just be self aware when you think you are seeing recurring patterns. You may be reading too much into it.

For what it's worth, I see Villarreal as a very well organised team defensively. The back 8 know their place. They don't hound the opposition down, they let you have it. Attacking wise I thought they were fairly average. Average relative to top tier euro teams all the same.

Andersonisgod · 28-04-2016 11:56pm

HardenendMan wrote: »

That's fair enough, I'm not a top coach by any means. But just be self aware when you think you are seeing recurring patterns. You may be reading too much into it.

For what it's worth, I see Villarreal as a very well organised team defensively. The back 8 know their place. They don't hound the opposition down, they let you have it. Attacking wise I thought they were fairly average. Average relative to top tier euro teams all the same.

Nah these movements were repeated and very deliberate, Suarez making darting runs inside into the half space, Costa overlapping and even occasionally going inside the opposition full back in the build up play, long diagonals out to Dos Santos. All deliberate moves out on the flanks.

I'd agree they are a well organised side defensively, I've seen them press higher and more effectively than what they did tonight but even Marcelino said he didn't expect Liverpool to play as they did. When teams open up against them you'll see them in their element. I'd say a level below the likes of Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid but not too far off a PSG or Man City.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 12:03am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Nah these movements were repeated and very deliberate, Suarez making darting runs inside into the half space, Costa overlapping and even occasionally going inside the opposition full back in the build up play, long diagonals out to Dos Santos. All deliberate moves out on the flanks.

I'd agree they are a well organised side defensively, I've seen them press higher and more effectively than what they did tonight but even Marcelino said he didn't expect Liverpool to play as they did. When teams open up against them you'll see them in their element. I'd say a level below the likes of Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid but not too far off a PSG or Man City.

Sounds fairly standard football to me!

Again it comes back to my point. None of these deliberate and rehearsed movements caused Liverpool any real problems. Because their players brought their game and played well. The Villarreal players lacked the SKILL to create chances. As did Liverpool of course.

And how was the goal scored? A mistake by Kolo. Should be getting a head on that ball. But a good pass all the same. Individual mistake and individual skill. Then the control and awareness to square the ball. Again individual skill.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 12:11am

HardenendMan wrote: »

Sounds fairly standard football to me!

Again it comes back to my point. None of these deliberate and rehearsed movements caused Liverpool any real problems. Because their players brought their game and played well. The Villarreal players lacked the SKILL to create chances. As did Liverpool of course.

And how was the goal scored? A mistake by Kolo. Should be getting a head on that ball. But a good pass all the same. Individual mistake and individual skill. Then the control and awareness to square the ball. Again individual skill.

I'd have to disagree very strongly to your evaluation of the goal. That goal could not have been more Villareal. They win the ball back in their own half, they play through an aggressive Liverpool press (mainly via Bruno), after that they are in and the runs and passes are typical of this team. It's the kind of move they'd been waiting to spring all game, it's the kind of move you'll see them put together several times each week (of course not always to the same success) but beating an aggressive press and countering onto an exposed backline at pace is Villareal's M.O. I'd also say that on that last point, as a couple of Spanish football pundits have noted tonight on Twitter, the regularity with which they score those square balls into an empty net goal is incredible, it's no coincidence.

Demosthenese · 29-04-2016 12:14am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Where did I say that. Please quote or leave. Horizontal runs with runners from deep anticipating a lay off repeatedly is simply an example of a move that has clearly been rehearsed.

So no manager can be praised unless they deploy ultra defensive tactics because, apparently, those are the only tactics that constitute anything approaching a "masterplan." I'm not even saying Marcelino is as good a coach as Simeone, only that he deserves credit. He's taken this club from the doldrums of the 2nd division to a night that, he himself said post match, would not have been imaginable 3 years ago. This isn't a club with massive resources and yet they play a fantastic brand of football, are on course to finish 4th in the best damn league in the world and could even finish the season in a European Cup Final so how about you take your Internet negativity and tell it to someone who cares because this night is Villareal's and it's Marcelino's and they bloody deserve it!

Your definition of fantastic football and mine are on different planes. 4th place is Spain is alot more achievable for 3-5 teams than it is in other countries. Wouldn't be splurging the accolades quite yet. Based on one smash and grab. Despite their running between the lines ...

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 12:19am

Demosthenese wrote: »

Your definition of fantastic football and mine are on different planes. 4th place is Spain is alot more achievable for 3-5 teams than it is in other countries. Wouldn't be splurging the accolades quite yet. Based on one smash and grab. Despite their running between the lines ...

17th in the Segunda Division when Marcelino took over, promoted back to Primera Division by the skin of their teeth and 4th in a league that might (maybe even bordering on probably will) have 4 teams in the 2 European finals this year. I guess that's what running between the lines gets you.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 12:22am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'd have to disagree very strongly to your evaluation of the goal. That goal could not have been more Villareal. They win the ball back in their own half, they play through an aggressive Liverpool press (mainly via Bruno), after that they are in and the runs and passes are typical of this team. It's the kind of move they'd been waiting to spring all game, it's the kind of move you'll see them put together several times each week (of course not always to the same success) but beating an aggressive press and countering onto an exposed backline at pace is Villareal's M.O. I'd also say that on that last point, as a couple of Spanish football pundits have noted tonight on Twitter, the regularity with which they score those square balls into an empty net goal is incredible, it's no coincidence.

Ok that's fair enough. You are strong on your opinion, I appreciate that.

But what did you expect them to do in the situation leading the goal? "Break the press". As in beat a man, pass before being tackled? The other option being to lose the ball. That wouldn't be a good plan. So what you call "breaking the press" is common sense football done to one's ability.

Then the "runs". The one in behind Kolo. Hardly genius or unusual to run in behind the 35 yr old. Would have done it myself. Still need him to misjudge the ball or I'm no use to anyone. Then the run for the square ball? The other option is for the scorer to not back up his team mate and hang back. Hanging back is a bit unfair on your team mate and far too negative. Again standard football common sense. Square it? Always taking that option if I'm honest. Not genius.

So you can dress it up with buzz words but broken down the decisions that lead to the goal were already made for the players. Without their ability they had absolutely nothing. The difference between them and a schoolboy team is the ability.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 12:35am

HardenendMan wrote: »

Ok that's fair enough. You are strong on your opinion, I appreciate that.

But what did you expect them to do in the situation leading the goal? "Break the press". As in beat a man, pass before being tackled? The other option being to lose the ball. That wouldn't be a good plan. So what you call "breaking the press" is common sense football done to one's ability.

Then the "runs". The one in behind Kolo. Hardly genius or unusual to run in behind the 35 yr old. Would have done it myself. Still need him to misjudge the ball or I'm no use to anyone. Then the run for the square ball? The other option is for the scorer to not back up his team mate and hang back. Hanging back is a bit unfair on your team mate and far too negative. Again standard football common sense. Square it? Always taking that option if I'm honest. Not genius.

So you can dress it up with buzz words but broken down the decisions that lead to the goal were already made for the players. Without their ability they had absolutely nothing. The difference between them and a schoolboy team is the ability.

Thanks you, I appreciate the opportunity to actually debate football on this forum, a rare occurrence!

Ah while it might seem like common sense to break the press, this might not always be the case. Eg a coach like Mourinho or, for a more popular Irish/English example, Jack Charlton, believe that you, as a team, are at your most vulnerable when in possession of the ball so being heavily pressurised so close to your own goal for those coaches means their instinct tells them to play more direct/play wide in those situations. Not every coach has the mindset to play through an aggressive press. Equally not every coach has the ability or force of personality to coach players on the training ground in ways to play through each teams press (because teams press in different ways and with different triggers ). I absolutely accept that all of this isn't much use if the players aren't capable of executing the instructions but equally, at that level, having a team of talented players isn't enough when any tiny detail can be the difference between success and failure. Good coaching is every bit as important as good players.

Ah bit it's the regularity with which that run is made, the sweeping formation the Villareal players take up once they break through the press (in the 91st minute no less!) This is a team that has done this a million times, that have practised this counter attack over and over again. It was so perfect you could play it at UEFA coaching courses as an example of a perfect counter attack.

I agree that moments of individual genius or inspiration separate to the contributions of the coach do happen, I would equally say though that much of Villareal's attack is based on precise formations, recurring patterns and much practised movements, none more so than that goal, from start to finish it was, as I said earlier, the most Villareal goal known to mankind.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 12:47am

Ok I'll take your word for it ;-)

If all of the above complicated coaching stuff is common sense to me then maybe I underestimate my genius and have missed my calling! I make the most complex things sound easy, now that's impressive.

Night bud.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 12:49am

HardenendMan wrote: »

Ok I'll take your word for it ;-)

If all of the above complicated coaching stuff is common sense to me then maybe I underestimate my genius and have missed my calling! I make the most complex things sound easy, now that's impressive.

Night bud.

Haha and making difficult things sound easy is a key requirement for coaches so I wouldn't rule you out of the running.

Goodnight mate.

galwaylad14 · 29-04-2016 10:02am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Thanks you, I appreciate the opportunity to actually debate football on this forum, a rare occurrence!

Ah while it might seem like common sense to break the press, this might not always be the case. Eg a coach like Mourinho or, for a more popular Irish/English example, Jack Charlton, believe that you, as a team, are at your most vulnerable when in possession of the ball so being heavily pressurised so close to your own goal for those coaches means their instinct tells them to play more direct/play wide in those situations. Not every coach has the mindset to play through an aggressive press. Equally not every coach has the ability or force of personality to coach players on the training ground in ways to play through each teams press (because teams press in different ways and with different triggers ). I absolutely accept that all of this isn't much use if the players aren't capable of executing the instructions but equally, at that level, having a team of talented players isn't enough when any tiny detail can be the difference between success and failure. Good coaching is every bit as important as good players.

Ah bit it's the regularity with which that run is made, the sweeping formation the Villareal players take up once they break through the press (in the 91st minute no less!) This is a team that has done this a million times, that have practised this counter attack over and over again. It was so perfect you could play it at UEFA coaching courses as an example of a perfect counter attack.

I agree that moments of individual genius or inspiration separate to the contributions of the coach do happen, I would equally say though that much of Villareal's attack is based on precise formations, recurring patterns and much practised movements, none more so than that goal, from start to finish it was, as I said earlier, the most Villareal goal known to mankind.

Can I just ask do you think the goal was a result of a rigid plan in which everyone knew exactly where the ball was to be played and who was to be in which exact position at each time?

Or was it a result of good players just playing what was in front of them and making their decisions based on that?

I don't underestimate the importance of tactics but in general I'd imagine tactics sort of just extend to your formation, general shape with and without the ball, how high up the pitch you'll press, whether you'll try pass it out from the back or just clear it long and fight for it further up the pitch. Whether you'll try to work the ball into the box or get it wide and whip in crosses. As well as set pieces obviously where everyone has their own job to do. And I suppose other general things like making sure to close down certain players quicker or run at certain players etc.

I udnerstand that these are all tactics a coach might employ.

But I'm not sure tactics extend to: "right when we break out late in the game do it up the left centre of the pitch, knock a ball over the top where this player has to be, hopefully their centre half misses it in the air, then you make sure you square the ball to this guy who of course will be in the position to touch it in"

I'm sure they had planned to break quickly and they were told maybe for the midfielders to get forward in support when they do. But after that it's up to the players to play what's in front of them. I don't know these guys names now but it's up to that midfielder to spot the guy running in behind Toure and try pick him out, then when he gets in control of it he has to decide should he shoot or look for a pass, he see's there's a pass on and it's a tap in for Lopez.

But it's just good players playing what's in front of them (all while taking heed of the general tactics of the manager of course) and making the right decisions at the right times.

The game is just far too dynamic to be micro managed in the way you seem to think it is. It's not NFL whereby every time it starts from a deadball and once the move breaks down it starts again.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 10:43am

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Can I just ask do you think the goal was a result of a rigid plan in which everyone knew exactly where the ball was to be played and who was to be in which exact position at each time?

Or was it a result of good players just playing what was in front of them and making their decisions based on that?

I don't underestimate the importance of tactics but in general I'd imagine tactics sort of just extend to your formation, general shape with and without the ball, how high up the pitch you'll press, whether you'll try pass it out from the back or just clear it long and fight for it further up the pitch. Whether you'll try to work the ball into the box or get it wide and whip in crosses. As well as set pieces obviously where everyone has their own job to do. And I suppose other general things like making sure to close down certain players quicker or run at certain players etc.

I udnerstand that these are all tactics a coach might employ.

But I'm not sure tactics extend to: "right when we break out late in the game do it up the left centre of the pitch, knock a ball over the top where this player has to be, hopefully their centre half misses it in the air, then you make sure you square the ball to this guy who of course will be in the position to touch it in"

I'm sure they had planned to break quickly and they were told maybe for the midfielders to get forward in support when they do. But after that it's up to the players to play what's in front of them. I don't know these guys names now but it's up to that midfielder to spot the guy running in behind Toure and try pick him out, then when he gets in control of it he has to decide should he shoot or look for a pass, he see's there's a pass on and it's a tap in for Lopez.

But it's just good players playing what's in front of them (all while taking heed of the general tactics of the manager of course) and making the right decisions at the right times.

The game is just far too dynamic to be micro managed in the way you seem to think it is. It's not NFL whereby every time it starts from a deadball and once the move breaks down it starts again.

I think people underestimate just how much attacking formations are worked on by top coaches on the training ground. To me it's the same as when you see a team so expertly drilled in defending deep, nobody assumes that the players have just found themselves in those positions or tracking particular runners by chance, everyone accepts that these are things that have been worked on by the coach for that specific game. Yet when it comes to attacking formations, movement patterns and ball movement people assume these are things which are off the cuff, personally I find that to be a massive in balance and, imo, that plays out on this Board where I believe people are far more likely to praise a defensive minded coach than an attack minded coach.

You must remember too the technical coaching work done with these players to get them to such a level that not only can they play through an aggressive press but that Klopp (a coach notorious for his team's aggressive pressing) opted not to press for the most part. Credit there must go to the fantastic work of the coach who sets out a lovely shape and offers his players multiple passing options when under pressure. Again, these are all important coaching factors in modern football, things these clubs will work on daily.

Of course there's an element of luck to it, there's an element of luck to every goal, every game. At the end if the day Marcelino got it right, they stuck in, they defended well, they drew Liverpool in and caught them on the break with a typical Villareal movement. There's luck but there's a huge element of fantastic strategy, coaching and player quality too.

Of course because of the nature of the sport not every play can be micromanaged but in any game you'll see patterns of play and movement which, almost always, are at the behest of the coach, otherwise a coach would be worthless, this is one of the main parts of his job; identifying a strategy and finding the best ways for your team to carry out this strategy and to expose weaknesses in the opposition. Villareal are a team worth watching every week, they play gorgeous football and some of the patterns you saw last night you'll see them deploy each week.

8-10 · 29-04-2016 10:58am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think people underestimate just how much attacking formations are worked on by top coaches on the training ground. To me it's the same as when you see a team so expertly drilled in defending deep, nobody assumes that the players have just found themselves in those positions or tracking particular runners by chance, everyone accepts that these are things that have been worked on by the coach for that specific game. Yet when it comes to attacking formations, movement patterns and ball movement people assume these are things which are off the cuff, personally I find that to be a massive in balance and, imo, that plays out on this Board where I believe people are far more likely to praise a defensive minded coach than an attack minded coach.

You must remember too the technical coaching work done with these players to get them to such a level that not only can they play through an aggressive press but that Klopp (a coach notorious for his team's aggressive pressing) opted not to press for the most part. Credit there must go to the fantastic work of the coach who sets out a lovely shape and offers his players multiple passing options when under pressure. Again, these are all important coaching factors in modern football, things these clubs will work on daily.

Of course there's an element of luck to it, there's an element of luck to every goal, every game. At the end if the day Marcelino got it right, they stuck in, they defended well, they drew Liverpool in and caught them on the break with a typical Villareal movement. There's luck but there's a huge element of fantastic strategy, coaching and player quality too.

Of course because of the nature of the sport not every play can be micromanaged but in any game you'll see patterns of play and movement which, almost always, are at the behest of the coach, otherwise a coach would be worthless, this is one of the main parts of his job; identifying a strategy and finding the best ways for your team to carry out this strategy and to expose weaknesses in the opposition. Villareal are a team worth watching every week, they play gorgeous football and some of the patterns you saw last night you'll see them deploy each week.

Based on this I'd say Liverpool did very well to match them away from home in 90mins before the injury time, they looked good value for a 0-0 draw but 0-1 is still decent, either way Liverpool would have to score at home

If that's the 4th team in Spain with the fantastic work of an attack-minded coach who got a fantastic strategy completely right on the day at home to the 7th team in England, and they can only win it by a single goal in time-added-on, then that was a great result for Liverpool in not conceding more and keeping the tie alive.

It also shows that the English game is not as weak as some would like to suggest in comparison to Spain. This is a team that have only been in the Champions League once since 2009 and finished 6th in the EPL last year, are 7th in the league now. If that's the 4th team in Spain playing to their strengths at home I think it shows a lot for the strength of the Premier League. Outside of the top 3 in Spain I reckon the quality drops off dramatically, and the table again this year shows that (over 20points off top!)

Shanotheslayer · 29-04-2016 11:06am

8-10 wrote: »

This is a team that have only been in the Champions League once since 2009 and finished 6th in the EPL last year, are 7th in the league now. If that's the 4th team in Spain playing to their strengths at home I think it shows a lot for the strength of the Premier League. Outside of the top 3 in Spain I reckon the quality drops off dramatically, and the table again this year shows that (over 20points off top!)

I may be wrong here, but off the top of my head, I don't recall Villarreal being in CL much recently?

Edit: 08-09 they were last in it.

Johner · 29-04-2016 11:30am

Wasn't impressed at all with Villareal, they looked very poor and were lucky to win that. Would fancy Liverpool to go through.

8-10 · 29-04-2016 11:51am

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but off the top of my head, I don't recall Villarreal being in CL much recently?

Edit: 08-09 they were last in it.

Yep true. I don't really think they're looking that strong based on last night. I was expecting people in the know to be saying they had an off day last night but if that's them on a good day then maybe they're lucky in the league

I can see them stifling us at Anfield and going through but they're no better than Dortmund or United based on what I saw so have to be confident

Shanotheslayer · 29-04-2016 11:54am

8-10 wrote: »

Yep true. I don't really think they're looking that strong based on last night. I was expecting people in the know to be saying they had an off day last night but if that's them on a good day then maybe they're lucky in the league

I can see them stifling us at Anfield and going through but they're no better than Dortmund or United based on what I saw so have to be confident

I agree, no better than Dort/United. But there home form has been exceptional this year. I fancied them to Win yesterday, but thought it would have been a 2-1 favoring Pool going into the second leg with an away goal.

Hard to call at Anfield. Especially knowing that even if Villarreal do score that Anfield on European nights pull out some results.

In Fairness, If Liverpool do win the Europa, they must have had one of the hardest run ins in recent times?

Dortmund
United
Villarreal

RayCon · 29-04-2016 12:26pm

Now that I've read through the last 4 pages - do I get some sort of UEFA Entry Level Coaching Badge ?

monkey9 · 29-04-2016 12:30pm

RayCon wrote: »

Now that I've read through the last 4 pages - do I get some sort of UEFA Entry Level Coaching Badge ?

You're automatically on Zonal Marking's mailing list.

callaway92 · 29-04-2016 12:40pm

monkey9 wrote: »

You're automatically on Zonal Marking's mailing list.

...and the CIES Football Observatory

:rolleyes:

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 12:58pm

8-10 wrote: »

Based on this I'd say Liverpool did very well to match them away from home in 90mins before the injury time, they looked good value for a 0-0 draw but 0-1 is still decent, either way Liverpool would have to score at home

If that's the 4th team in Spain with the fantastic work of an attack-minded coach who got a fantastic strategy completely right on the day at home to the 7th team in England, and they can only win it by a single goal in time-added-on, then that was a great result for Liverpool in not conceding more and keeping the tie alive.

It also shows that the English game is not as weak as some would like to suggest in comparison to Spain. This is a team that have only been in the Champions League once since 2009 and finished 6th in the EPL last year, are 7th in the league now. If that's the 4th team in Spain playing to their strengths at home I think it shows a lot for the strength of the Premier League. Outside of the top 3 in Spain I reckon the quality drops off dramatically, and the table again this year shows that (over 20points off top!)

I'm not sure though how your take away from that game is that the Spanish league is weak. Last night's win again stressed the quality of this league, I know a lot of stats last night weren't doing the rounds on social media about how Spanish clubs have won 49 of last 52 knockout round ties against non Spanish opposition which is insane. Sevilla are the Europa League holders, Barcelona are Champions League holders and this season there is a growing chance that you might see 4 Spanish teams in the 2 finals. The top 3 are 3 of the 4 best teams in the world, the chasing pack are a level below those but, as we saw last night, still entirely capable of competing with clubs with multiple times the resources which they possess.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 2:32pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm not sure though how your take away from that game is that the Spanish league is weak. Last night's win again stressed the quality of this league, I know a lot of stats last night weren't doing the rounds on social media about how Spanish clubs have won 49 of last 52 knockout round ties against non Spanish opposition which is insane. Sevilla are the Europa League holders, Barcelona are Champions League holders and this season there is a growing chance that you might see 4 Spanish teams in the 2 finals. The top 3 are 3 of the 4 best teams in the world, the chasing pack are a level below those but, as we saw last night, still entirely capable of competing with clubs with multiple times the resources which they possess.

Well for all Marcelinos genius I still fancy Liverpool to go through. They were the better team IMO.

Wasn't it Pep Guardiola that once said how he leaves it to the players when it comes to attacking. Or I think it was Henry that said he said it. There was no "patterns" or rehearsed movements.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 3:01pm

HardenendMan wrote: »

Well for all Marcelinos genius I still fancy Liverpool to go through. They were the better team IMO.

Wasn't it Pep Guardiola that once said how he leaves it to the players when it comes to attacking. Or I think it was Henry that said he said it. There was no "patterns" or rehearsed movements.

I have a tonne of time for Klopp, don't get me wrong, but I do think Marcelino deserves a tonne of credit for the work he's done at Villareal, he's taken them from the doldrums of Spanish football to 4th in the Primera Division and on the brink of a European final.

That was something that Henry said, how much that is true is open to interpretation and it's important to note the time frame in which Henry was a member of the Barcelona squad. Accounts from other players, first hand observers and journalists would attest to the staggering, bordering on obsessive, amount of work Guardiola puts into controlling every aspect of his team's play. The man does not rest until he finds solutions to each issue that each game presents. He is, by all accounts, both a perfectionist and control freak.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 4:28pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I have a tonne of time for Klopp, don't get me wrong, but I do think Marcelino deserves a tonne of credit for the work he's done at Villareal, he's taken them from the doldrums of Spanish football to 4th in the Primera Division and on the brink of a European final.

That was something that Henry said, how much that is true is open to interpretation and it's important to note the time frame in which Henry was a member of the Barcelona squad. Accounts from other players, first hand observers and journalists would attest to the staggering, bordering on obsessive, amount of work Guardiola puts into controlling every aspect of his team's play. The man does not rest until he finds solutions to each issue that each game presents. He is, by all accounts, both a perfectionist and control freak.

Ya see I can't agree with that re Peps time at Barca. Every aspect of his teams play? You think you can do that with Messi???

corwill · 29-04-2016 4:39pm

RayCon wrote: »

Now that I've read through the last 4 pages - do I get some sort of UEFA Entry Level Coaching Badge ?

Little enough to show for having died inside, I'd be holding out for a Masserati with Rihanna tied up in the boot.

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 4:57pm

HardenendMan wrote: »

Ya see I can't agree with that re Peps time at Barca. Every aspect of his teams play? You think you can do that with Messi???

Absolutely, every player must fit into a structure. Sometimes I think the perception from fans of attacking coaches is that they just let their players run free in an entirely unstructured way. It simply isn't true. While you must allowance for the individual genius of Messi it must be within the overall structure of the team. Taking last season's Barcelona as an example, Messi was moved out wide to a right inside forward position to accommodate Suarez, however this meant that the structure of the side had to change to accommodate this switch in position for Messi, as a result Rakitic played far wider than you'd normally expect a central midfielder, even often overlapping Messi on the outside, Dani Alves found himself playing inside a lot more, at times occupying the position you'd normally expect of a central midfielder, Busquets moved higher up the pitch and Barcelona's main defensive weapon, aside from their staggering possession, was an aggressive press led by Suarez and supplemented by the aggressive positioning of the midfield 3 and Alves (and to a lesser extent Messi and Neymar). You'll also notice how common the lottery switch ball from Messi to Alba became in the final third. A player of such genius must be accommodated by the system to get the best out of him for the sake of the team and player, while Messi is allowed freedom (to a degree) of position and his defensive duties are not as prominent as Suarez's he still must conform to the overall system, even if that system is built to accentuate his abilities.

HardenendMan · 29-04-2016 9:58pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Absolutely, every player must fit into a structure. Sometimes I think the perception from fans of attacking coaches is that they just let their players run free in an entirely unstructured way. It simply isn't true. While you must allowance for the individual genius of Messi it must be within the overall structure of the team. Taking last season's Barcelona as an example, Messi was moved out wide to a right inside forward position to accommodate Suarez, however this meant that the structure of the side had to change to accommodate this switch in position for Messi, as a result Rakitic played far wider than you'd normally expect a central midfielder, even often overlapping Messi on the outside, Dani Alves found himself playing inside a lot more, at times occupying the position you'd normally expect of a central midfielder, Busquets moved higher up the pitch and Barcelona's main defensive weapon, aside from their staggering possession, was an aggressive press led by Suarez and supplemented by the aggressive positioning of the midfield 3 and Alves (and to a lesser extent Messi and Neymar). You'll also notice how common the lottery switch ball from Messi to Alba became in the final third. A player of such genius must be accommodated by the system to get the best out of him for the sake of the team and player, while Messi is allowed freedom (to a degree) of position and his defensive duties are not as prominent as Suarez's he still must conform to the overall system, even if that system is built to accentuate his abilities.

Well I can't argue with any of that :-)

But what you're describing above is fairly basic tactics in my view. Sorry not basic, obviously at a high level but what you would expect from a top top team. But I agree with you because you didn't use the usual buzz words of channels and angles LOL ;-)

I still think you need to appreciate the talent of the individuals in the split second moments of an attack. You have touched on it but you still give more praise to the coaching than is due in my opinion.

In the example of Pep's Barcelona, you had a team of players that can play football without looking down at the ball at their feet.

In the modern Barca team, with the adjustments to include Suarez as you described very well, you still see the chances created coming from individual brilliance.

My main point is this. And I think you agree. There is absolutely no substitution for skill and talent in football. You can over achieve with coaching easier in Rugby and GAA football. You can in soccer but nowhere near to the same level.

And to add to that. If a coach can make good players feel like gods through man management, and if they can recruit the right talent AND attitudes, then they are 90% there. The best managers recruit the best and inspire the best to be better.

One final point. You said how defensive coaching gets praise whereas attacking does not. I believe that is because of my points above. You can coach defending. But you rely much more on skill for attacking play.

I would love to watch a game with you all the same. Trying to break you down would produce a lot of laughs :-)

Andersonisgod · 29-04-2016 11:06pm

HardenendMan wrote: »

Well I can't argue with any of that :-)

But what you're describing above is fairly basic tactics in my view. Sorry not basic, obviously at a high level but what you would expect from a top top team. But I agree with you because you didn't use the usual buzz words of channels and angles LOL ;-)

I still think you need to appreciate the talent of the individuals in the split second moments of an attack. You have touched on it but you still give more praise to the coaching than is due in my opinion.

In the example of Pep's Barcelona, you had a team of players that can play football without looking down at the ball at their feet.

In the modern Barca team, with the adjustments to include Suarez as you described very well, you still see the chances created coming from individual brilliance.

My main point is this. And I think you agree. There is absolutely no substitution for skill and talent in football. You can over achieve with coaching easier in Rugby and GAA football. You can in soccer but nowhere near to the same level.

And to add to that. If a coach can make good players feel like gods through man management, and if they can recruit the right talent AND attitudes, then they are 90% there. The best managers recruit the best and inspire the best to be better.

One final point. You said how defensive coaching gets praise whereas attacking does not. I believe that is because of my points above. You can coach defending. But you rely much more on skill for attacking play.

I would love to watch a game with you all the same. Trying to break you down would produce a lot of laughs :-)

Haha I do think that we aren't a million miles apart on this subject at all, in fact I'd say we are pretty close on certain points of it.

I do absolutely agree that there must be allowances made for individual brilliance and that if you don't have players capable of executing your strategy or creating those "magic" moments in games then you're going to struggle as a team. That being said, I will always seek to praise a coach who has managed to incorporate such gifted players into an overall system of play that works towards the greater benefit of the team and not only the individual.

Absolutely I agree with your point on talent and attitude. I'd even agree with your assessment that talent and attitude is 90% of the battle, they are 2 overwhelmingly important factors to have, the 2 most important factors for sure. What I would say is though that extra 10% at the very top level can be all the difference. More often than not at the final stages of big European competitions each game has 22 world class footballers whose attitude are, more often than not, in sync with their teammates, that 10% that the manager contributes with tactics, instructions and identifying opposition weaknesses can be the difference between glory and failure.

Thanks mate! I like to believe I'd be good company, though my brothers and friends who watch games with me might strongly disagree, I'd enjoy watching a game with you too.

Kerrigooney · 29-04-2016 11:52pm

We have a bromance.

LFC...bringing people together.

Milkers · 05-05-2016 10:02pm

Some of the fawning over Villareal after the first match looks particularly dumb now. They weren't great last week and they were worse in the second leg.