Childcare, sick children and career

Once again I was called to collect my child from crèche as she had caught the latest illness there. While often I can get a relative to look after her, I've been far too dependent on the goodwill of my employer and colleagues since I sent her to crèche. Today is one of those days when I had to leave work within two hours of dropping her to crèche. It's embarrassing, and will be even moreso when I change jobs in a few months and I have to ask for similar leniency at the same time as trying to establish myself in a new job. I love my job and would much rather be there working so it's a lose-lose situation in terms of work.

I never realised when I sent her to crèche that it would have such an impact on my career. I thought it would be a simple matter of parting with my €1k plus per month for the crèche's fee, and I could continue working as normal. Nothing could be further from the truth. It may not be pc to say it, but in terms of stability there's a lot of merit in having one parent stay at home - a standard of life that's financially impossible for most of us here in Dublin in 2016.

Is this experience of childcare impacting upon your career common among other parents?

lazygal

We have a minder in our home for many reasons, one of which is that there's no issue when the children are sick. I think children in creche tend to get sick more often, based on my friends' children anyway. We might be lucky but we've avoided most things but a few vomiting bugs. I'd advise giving any vaccines possible, like chicken pox and rotovirus, prevention is better than cure. I'm in two minds about whether I'll stay home. I took a step back as I work a shorter week and our childcare costs don't leave me with much, but I'm going to keep working as much as I can for the moment.

Judge Trudy

What age is your child? I think it's broad as it is long with regards the childminder and creche. I sent my daughter to creche since she was one years old to socialise her while I was on career break. Last year I calculated that if I had been working , I would have had go take at least 3 weeks off from work and no employer is going to put up with that. Since I've gone back to work, with my daughter being older and being in creche, her immunity is much better and I've only taken 2 days off from her being sick in 8 months. Some of my friends children have gone straight to school without creche or having been around other children much and are catching every germ and bug going. Unfortunately, it's the sacrifice you make when you have children. You have to ride out the storm until their immune system is built up whether that be when they're babies, toddlers or older.

jlm29

My child goes to a minder in her own home. He has the social aspect, because there's other kids there, but she's happy to take him if he's sick. He lies on her couch watching tv, and gets plenty tlc. There's certain things I'd choose to keep him at home with- I wouldn't send him in if he was actively vomiting for example, but if I needed to, I probably could.

Sligo1

jlm29 wrote: »

My child goes to a minder in her own home. He has the social aspect, because there's other kids there, but she's happy to take him if he's sick. He lies on her couch watching tv, and gets plenty tlc. There's certain things I'd choose to keep him at home with- I wouldn't send him in if he was actively vomiting for example, but if I needed to, I probably could.

Gosh Jlm that wouldn't sit well with me if I was parents of the other children at that minder. I know you said you wouldnt send him in... But saying that the minder would take him with no regard for the other children in his/her care doesn't say much about the minder.... I think if a child if actively unwell they should be sent home.

I have a little one in crèche (I hate having to send her tbh) and the amount of bugs she's picked up and taken home to my son is horrendous. I can't wait till the days I have to send them to childcare are over. We have a minder coming to our own home in the summer and I can't wait!

mirrorwall14

My lad goes to his childminder when sick if it's mild, as does the other little lad with him. If it's serious then obviously I'd stay home with him but sniffles, viruses etc he goes off as normal. Childminder has just the two lads his age and then 4 of her own in school and they start arriving home from 2 and 3 onwards. The house is like a train station. He loves it, I love it. The child minder and I get on well, we both take a very realistic approach. I'm a teacher-I'm going to bring everything home. He's a kid, he's going to get everything. So he's had three/four colds and two more serious throat infections thus far. All have been mild and once day one was over he went to the childminder even with the throat and his antibiotic for plenty of TLC. One day off thus far since day 1 was on a weekend with the other throat infection. This week the other little lad has given mine his headcold so the pair of them have had sniffles and the child minder doesn't mind one bit, extra cuddles and hugs and the lads are good

Sligo1

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

My lad goes to his childminder when sick if it's mild, as does the other little lad with him. If it's serious then obviously I'd stay home with him but sniffles, viruses etc he goes off as normal. Childminder has just the two lads his age and then 4 of her own in school and they start arriving home from 2 and 3 onwards. The house is like a train station. He loves it, I love it. The child minder and I get on well, we both take a very realistic approach. I'm a teacher-I'm going to bring everything home. He's a kid, he's going to get everything. So he's had three/four colds and two more serious throat infections thus far. All have been mild and once day one was over he went to the childminder even with the throat and his antibiotic for plenty of TLC. One day off thus far since day 1 was on a weekend with the other throat infection. This week the other little lad has given mine his headcold so the pair of them have had sniffles and the child minder doesn't mind one bit, extra cuddles and hugs and the lads are good

Headcold, sniffles, and mild sore throats I wouldn't blink at. I'm taking more about vomiting and diarrhoea bugs, hand foot and mouth etc... We have had an awful time of our girl bringing these home from crèche and it seems to last anything from 1-2 weeks. It does my head in when parents knowingly send in their sick children for others to catch the more aggressive viruses.

Neyite

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mirrorwall14

Sligo1 wrote: »

Headcold, sniffles, and mild sore throats I wouldn't blink at. I'm taking more about vomiting and diarrhoea bugs, hand foot and mouth etc... We have had an awful time of our girl bringing these home from crèche and it seems to last anything from 1-2 weeks. It does my head in when parents knowingly send in their sick children for others to catch the more aggressive viruses.

He's been around two vomiting bugs but caught neither and has had hand foot and mouth (I forgot that) both at the childminder. Both myself and the other parent are happy that they need to build up an immune system and that we need to be at work. As a teacher I don't have any discretionary leave whatsoever

Sligo1

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

He's been around two vomiting bugs but caught neither and has had hand foot and mouth (I forgot that) both at the childminder. Both myself and the other parent are happy that they need to build up an immune system and that we need to be at work. As a teacher I don't have any discretionary leave whatsoever

Do teachers not get force majeure? All annual leave I have I have to take to mind the kids when they are off sick. I dont remember the last time I took a discretionary week off. If that's an arrangement between you and another parent that's really good ur have that arrangement. And u think it depends what works for you and if you're all in agreement.

However, I personally wouldn't be happy with that arrangement. You're really lucky your little one has only had mild doses. But when it gets to the point of your children being aggressively ill every second week like mine and you not being able to leave the house well... That's why I have the opinion I do. especially if this building immunity means my children getting as sick as they do.

I was never in childcare myself and when I went to school never had a day of with any sickness. I think this whole "building immunity" theory really depends on the individual... If it was a decent theory is wonder why my kids are both constantly sick.... Surely their immunity would have been "built" by now....

mirrorwall14

Sligo1 wrote: »

Do teachers not get force majeure? All annual leave I have I have to take to mind the kids when they are off sick. I dont remember the last time I took a discretionary week off. If that's an arrangement between you and another parent that's really good ur have that arrangement. And u think it depends what works for you and if you're all in agreement.

However, I personally wouldn't be happy with that arrangement. You're really lucky your little one has only had mild doses. But when it gets to the point of your children being aggressively ill every second week like mine and you not being able to leave the house well... That's why I have the opinion I do. especially if this building immunity means my children getting as sick as they do.

I was never in childcare myself and when I went to school never had a day of with any sickness. I think this whole "building immunity" theory really depends on the individual... If it was a decent theory is wonder why my kids are both constantly sick.... Surely their immunity would have been "built" by now....

Force majeure is 5 days in 3 years but the child would need to be in hospital to claim it and it is only meant to cover an emergency until other arrangements are made. As in you can't claim 5 days together even if the child is in hospital. Don't get me wrong, we have great holidays there is just no leeway whatsoever (unless your school has a local arrangement and mine doesn't).

I don't view the childminder as any different than my own house if I had multiple kids (like my parents did). Keeping one at home made no difference, the rest would get sick. If I was a stay at home parent of the two lads they would still be passing each other bugs anyways?

Each to their own I guess but I'm happy with my current arrangement. Guess it helps that I completely trust my childminder though. If I didn't I wouldn't be leaving him with her sick

Sligo1

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Force majeure is 5 days in 3 years but the child would need to be in hospital to claim it and it is only meant to cover an emergency until other arrangements are made. As in you can't claim 5 days together even if the child is in hospital. Don't get me wrong, we have great holidays there is just no leeway whatsoever (unless your school has a local arrangement and mine doesn't).

I don't view the childminder as any different than my own house if I had multiple kids (like my parents did). Keeping one at home made no difference, the rest would get sick. If I was a stay at home parent of the two lads they would still be passing each other bugs anyways?

I get what you mean about passing illnesses through siblings etc... But the thing is the other kids at the minders aren't siblings. And I think that does make a difference. As I said, it's good that you trust your minder and have that arrangement with the other parent that suits you. IMHO I think a minder is different to a crèche anyway as there are far fewer children. Children are much more likely to get sick when there are a large amount in a closed environment. Like in a crèche.

Off topic... But with force majeure the child doesn't have to be admitted to hospital. I have taken this and mine weren't admitted. It in case of emergencies where no alternative arrangements can be made. Eg. I didn't send L into crèche one morning as she was sick so I had to care for her myself as I didn't have a minder etc. work gave me that day FM. Another time when I had a minder she called me to come home from work and took that FM aswell. Defo doesn't stipulate anywhere that the child has to be in hospital. Also although it's 5 days in 3 years... It's also 3 days in a 12 month period which isn't too bad...

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html

LegacyUser

We have a similar arrangement with our childminder.The two other kids there are in school and pre-school, so they catch everything anyway (and bring it back to her!). There's been the usual....ear infections, colds, vomiting-but nothing worse.

I think in a creche it's the sheer number of kids in close proximity that creates the problem, and the fact that stuff can go round two or three times as a result.Exposing a child to two or three kids vs a larger group probably reduces the likelihood of how often they're going to catch something at that age.

Also my minder has them outdoors as much as possible.I actually don't know how creches work that, maybe some get out less than others?I've a new job and I've taken two leave days for her...one when she was running a temp for three days and I had to bring her to a doctor, and the second when she caught the vomiting bug and promptly gave it to me. You feel bad about work though.

Millem

Sligo I agree with you. It does my head in when parents knowingly send their kids in contagious :mad: It will happen in primary and secondary. We have had parents refuse to collect their kids when school nurse rings home saying their son/daughter needs to go to Doctor/go home. :eek:

I have heard from friends that they get up early to try and get nurofen and calpol into kids so their temperature will come down so crèche will accept them.

Mirrorwall I have left work 3 times and just got my classes covered myself. I have a lovely Principal, he just says "you need to go". He didn't even expect me to get them covered.
I keep my guy at home when he is sick. I will collect him from minder then organise OH, Mum or MIL for following day. A lot of people in my work have used all their self certified sick days when their kids are sick. We get 7 over 2 years.
You also have 5 personal days you could use?
My minder will not take kids if they are vomiting.

jlm29

Sligo1 wrote: »

Gosh Jlm that wouldn't sit well with me if I was parents of the other children at that minder. I know you said you wouldnt send him in... But saying that the minder would take him with no regard for the other children in his/her care doesn't say much about the minder.... I think if a child if actively unwell they should be sent home.

I have a little one in crèche (I hate having to send her tbh) and the amount of bugs she's picked up and taken home to my son is horrendous. I can't wait till the days I have to send them to childcare are over. We have a minder coming to our own home in the summer and I can't wait!

I've never sent him if actively vomitibg, and to my knowledge no other parents have either. All the kids are in school at this stage, so if someone was stuck, and had to send their child for a couple of hours in the morning, they wouldn't be around the other kids anyhow.
I also feel that they're all exposed to all the bugs in school too, so trying to isolate them from illnesses is a bit pointless.

Sligo1

jlm29 wrote: »

I've never sent him if actively vomitibg, and to my knowledge no other parents have either. All the kids are in school at this stage, so if someone was stuck, and had to send their child for a couple of hours in the morning, they wouldn't be around the other kids anyhow.
I also feel that they're all exposed to all the bugs in school too, so trying to isolate them from illnesses is a bit pointless.

No I know you said you wouldn't send him in. my comment was aimed at the minder you said would take him if he was actively vomiting. There's a massive difference difference between isolating your child from any minor illnesses as opposed to trying to keep them away from an actively vomiting child who could pass it on to your entire family etc. who could end up ill for weeks. What would be the point in that....

jlm29

Sligo1 wrote: »

No I know you said you wouldn't send him in. my comment was aimed at the minder you said would take him if he was actively vomiting. There's a massive difference difference between isolating your child from any minor illnesses as opposed to trying to keep them away from an actively vomiting child who could pass it on to your entire family etc. who could end up ill for weeks. What would be the point in that....

In fairness, I don't actually know that she would take them, because I've never really known it to come up. That said- technically, the winter vomiting bug isn't truly gone until 48 hrs after the last episode- he has on occasion spent some of those 48 hrs in the minders.

cyning

I have a childminder who will take them no matter what. She took C with Scarlet Fever this week that she was vomiting occasionally with: but I will always ring, explain and the choice is hers. I did take today off as she had her grandchilds school play. She has taken them with chicken pox, hand foot and mouth, tonsilitis, basically everything: the reality is if I didn't have that I couldn't work. They get sick far too often, esp S. The only time I haven't sent them is with vomiting bugs bar one day where we had an appt in Crumlin. She's amazing though. Also they only go 3 days a week and they are the only kids there those days (well her grandkids come after school to play with the girls if they aren't sick!).

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

Sligo I agree with you. It does my head in when parents knowingly send their kids in contagious :mad: It will happen in primary and secondary. We have had parents refuse to collect their kids when school nurse rings home saying their son/daughter needs to go to Doctor/go home. :eek:

I have heard from friends that they get up early to try and get nurofen and calpol into kids so their temperature will come down so crèche will accept them.

Mirrorwall I have left work 3 times and just got my classes covered myself. I have a lovely Principal, he just says "you need to go". He didn't even expect me to get them covered.
I keep my guy at home when he is sick. I will collect him from minder then organise OH, Mum or MIL for following day. A lot of people in my work have used all their self certified sick days when their kids are sick. We get 7 over 2 years.
You also have 5 personal days you could use?
My minder will not take kids if they are vomiting.

Uncertified days are for your sick leave not anyone else's and you can get in trouble for doing the above. A teacher has been challenged on this in our school leading to a big debate on this. Pay was docked for the day and she was warned that it should not happen again. Same as force majeure, sick LC who happened to be 18. Refused to pay the day force majeure as they weren't a child. Both in my school. Having said that I'm pretty sure the union wasn't active at the time

I have been covered once for three classes but it's a big deal for management in our place

Oh and we are not allowed arrange our own cover

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Uncertified days are for your sick leave not anyone else's and you can get in trouble for doing the above. A teacher has been challenged on this in our school leading to a big debate on this. Pay was docked for the day and she was warned that it should not happen again. Same as force majeure, sick LC who happened to be 18. Refused to pay the day force majeure as they weren't a child. Both in my school. Having said that I'm pretty sure the union wasn't active at the time

I have been covered once for three classes but it's a big deal for management in our place

Oh and we are not allowed arrange our own cover

I know self certified are for us. In our school they do use them for kids. In fairness any time my guy is sick I usually get it anyway I haven't used any this year as I get cert from Doctor if I am sick (I have income protection). For personal days do you not arrange your own cover? You are allowed 5 of them.

I don't understand though why you can't use force majure?

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

I know self certified are for us. In our school they do use them for kids. In fairness any time my guy is sick I usually get it anyway I haven't used any this year as I get cert from Doctor if I am sick (I have income protection). For personal days do you not arrange your own cover? You are allowed 5 of them.

I don't understand though why you can't use force majure?

Personal days? Primary maybe? They don't exist in ETBs at second level unless the principal has a local arrangement with his staff-ours don't.

I've been told (by management and had it confirmed by the TUI) force majeure can only apply when things are an immediate emergency, as in a run to the emergency room for example not for anything else. Chicken pox and crèche sending them home wouldn't count for example. Though I'll look into it further now since that's the second person to say it here

Oh and if I was sick as well I'd have no issue using self certified!

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Personal days? Primary maybe? They don't exist in ETBs at second level unless the principal has a local arrangement with his staff-ours don't.

I've been told (by management and had it confirmed by the TUI) force majeure can only apply when things are an immediate emergency, as in a run to the emergency room for example not for anything else. Chicken pox and crèche sending them home wouldn't count for example. Though I'll look into it further now since that's the second person to say it here

Oh and if I was sick as well I'd have no issue using self certified!

I am secondary and personal days do exist.
Look under tui "brief absences" http://www.tui.ie/welcome-to-our-website/second-level-other-leave.2118.html
http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/leave/casual-personal-leave/
Or here asti
You need to get your own cover as dept don't pay for S & S.

Sligo1

Mirrorwall definitely check the FM. No where legally does it state the child or dependent has to go to emergency room or hospital. It just states that you are needed and your presence is indispensable at the time. If you have a sick child and no minder than you are obviously needed and it is an emergency. Your school can not make up the rules as they go along here even if they 'think' they can. This is a legal entitlement.

pwurple

I know exactly what you mean... We had to build layers of backup childcare.

Ours are the age where one go to school and the other does a few mornings of creche. We have an au pair for the afternoons, who can do extra if needed. We also have my mum, who is nearby and retired, who can take over if the children are sick, or our au pair is sick.

We have other family and friends who work part time who we can also call on if we are stuck.

Both myself and my husband are pushing hard in our careers at the moment. We could not do that without having great family support systems around us.

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

I am secondary and personal days do exist.
Look under tui "brief absences" http://www.tui.ie/welcome-to-our-website/second-level-other-leave.2118.html
http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/leave/casual-personal-leave/
Or here asti
You need to get your own cover as dept don't pay for S & S.

I was told personal days have to be applied for in advance and approved by the ETB so they are no use in a sick child situation? And again, our principal doesn't allow us to arrange our own cover. This actually came up at a staff meeting his year and he explicitly said he will absolutely not allow any arrangement where staff arrange other members of staff to cover for them. In an emergency they will do their best to accommodate us. Which leaves me back where I was, asking management for a favour and 'owing' them.

That's good to know on force majeure, I'll ask.
Luckily we're on a winner with our childminding situation anyways so if I need force majeure it probably will be for a hospital run (touch wood...)

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I was told personal days have to be applied for in advance and approved by the ETB so they are no use in a sick child situation? And again, our principal doesn't allow us to arrange our own cover. This actually came up at a staff meeting his year and he explicitly said he will absolutely not allow any arrangement where staff arrange other members of staff to cover for them. In an emergency they will do their best to accommodate us. Which leaves me back where I was, asking management for a favour and 'owing' them.

That's good to know on force majeure, I'll ask.
Luckily we're on a winner with our childminding situation anyways so if I need force majeure it probably will be for a hospital run (touch wood...)

Yes personal days are applied for in advance. My friend used one day this week when child had chicken pox. Child wasn't allowed in crèche for something like 10 days, so she has to organise alternative arrangements.

How are classes covered in your school for personal days if you don't ask your colleagues to cover your classes? Dept doesn't pay for cover

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

Yes personal days are applied for in advance. My friend used one day this week when child had chicken pox. Child wasn't allowed in crèche for something like 10 days, so she has to organise alternative arrangements.

How are classes covered in your school for personal days if you don't ask your colleagues to cover your classes? Dept doesn't pay for cover

Nobody takes them as far as I'm aware. Only thing I've seen anyone take like that is wedding leave and management organised cover. I'm not sure if pay was docked or if the teacher had to pay the subs individually for the classes

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Nobody takes them as far as I'm aware. Only thing I've seen anyone take like that is wedding leave and management organised cover. I'm not sure if pay was docked or if the teacher had to pay the subs individually for the classes

With marriage leave you are meant to get other teachers to cover your classes.

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

With marriage leave you are meant to get other teachers to cover your classes.

Sorry should have specified, extended married leave by three days. We aren't allowed organise the cover for our marriage leave either, asfaik you get docked

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Sorry should have specified, extended married leave by three days. We aren't allowed organise the cover for our marriage leave either, asfaik you get docked

Mirrorwall I don't want to derail this thread but I think your management are incorrect with all of these leaves. What if youR child has confirmation mon-fri which seems to be the norm around where I am. I am going on marriage leave myself for 7 days and union (tui) has told me that I get classes covered. I haven't even spoken to management yet as school is far too busy with Practicals and Orals etc.

I think that are jobs are probably the best you could ask for in relation to being child friendly. I have nipped home on free classes to bring my guy to the Doctor. A mid term is always only a few weeks away and luckily we get half days on Wednesdays. The private sector is a lot harder. my sister works long hours (probably the normal day for majority) leaves at before 7 home by 6 if she is lucky at the month end she has to work weekends. she has a minder in her home for this reason.

Orion

Neyite wrote: »

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