Ukrainians mark the 73rd anniversary of the formation of their SS division.

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

No .

So russia has radar video showing 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking and shooting down MH17 and eye witnesses too

No Gatling.... if you remember, the Kremlin were happy to provide the proof.

Here is the remarkably bogus image they helpfully provided.... very 'on the nose!'.... even photoshopping the exact fraction of a second of weapons release (though surveilance satellites don't really work like that).

And of course the official report confirmed that the weapon used was a SAM (9M38-series missile with 9N314M warhead to be exact) & not a AAM.

2 years later.... and there are still idiots pushing this f*ckwittery.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No Gatling.... if you remember, the Kremlin were happy to provide

How could I forget

Jimmy Garlic

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And of course the official report confirmed that the weapon used was a SAM (9M38-series missile with 9N314M warhead to be exact) & not a AAM.

What is that supposed to prove? Ukraine uses that variant too.

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What is that supposed to prove? Ukraine uses that variant too.

SAM vs AAM.

Both stories cant be true.

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

SAM vs AAM.

Both stories cant be true.

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible. Armchair generals on here with their new found expertise on military hardware are. Ukraine has far from exonerated itself and the fact that they are withholding the ATC tapes is highly suspicious, wouldn't you say? Aren't you curious about what is on those tapes?

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible

You don't have to know for sure Jimmy, but what do you think happened?

- Either the Dutch Safety Board's assessment is correct, that it was a SAM.
Or,
- The that the Kremlin's assessment, and provided "proof" is correct in that it was an AAM.

Which do you think is the right judgement?

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible. Armchair generals on here with their new found expertise on military hardware are. Ukraine has far from exonerated itself and the fact that they are withholding the ATC tapes is highly suspicious, wouldn't you say? Aren't you curious about what is on those tapes?

Neither am I. I wasn't there. It might have been shot down by a regular Russian military unit on 'holidays' or it might have been shot down by irregular Russian militias supplied with state level weaponry by Russia. But it certainly wasn't shot down by the Ukrainians, the US, the Jews, the Lizard people or whatever conspiracy theory your flowchart is pointing you to.

As for armchair generals...with you not able to tell the implications of an SAM vs. an AAM...I wouldn't be using your own lack of knowledge to discredit others views.

Given the thread has so easily derailed into (another) debate about Putins crimes in Ukraine, doesn't it highlight the shallow propaganda effort of the OP?

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

But it certainly wasn't shot down by the Ukrainians,

You haven't the foggiest idea about who shot it down, but you will stick with the notion that the Ukrainians 100% didn't because that suits your Russia is the big bad boogyman bias. The phenomenal levels of cognitive dissonance you and your bedfellows suffer from knows no bounds. Latching on to hearsay and speculation as fact, but only if it suits you. Ignoring things that that don't fit in with the parroted narrative, such as the fact that Ukraine is hiding the ATC tapes. Some of you will even go so far as to make excuses for nazis holding SS commerations and torchlight processions. Shameful.

Gatling

If Ukraine are hiding the tapes as accused by several posters past and present,
Why are the transcripts readily available, the Dutch investigation had them too .
They also have the black box recorders also with transcripts available to the public .

So what are Ukraine supposedly hiding again because it seems some people stick to the Kremlin lines

The Randy Riverbeast

PC gone mad. Can't even have a little get together to support something without someone pointing out the group killed a few people. It was in the past, the nazis haven't killed anyone in ages!

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

If Ukraine are hiding the tapes as accused by several posters past and present,
Why are the transcripts readily available, the Dutch investigation had them too .
They also have the black box recorders also with transcripts available to the public .

So what are Ukraine supposedly hiding again because it seems some people stick to the Kremlin lines

Ukraine has to give the green light to release the tapes. Transcripts. Easily falsified. The Dutch had a dog in the race as they actively supported the coup, their position as ''independent investigators'' is debatable. If the actual recordings correspond with the so called transcripts then there is no reason not to release them. Wouldn't you agree?

darkpagandeath

I'm sure RT will be along soon to show us all the very very far right groups in the Old USSR and Neo Nazis ??

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The Dutch had a dog in the race as they actively supported the coup...

And they also snuck a lot of their people onto the flight, the nasty so and sos. Almost 200. Now. Add that to your conspiracy theory.

arayess

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Stalins genocidal collectivisation policy and his purges affected Russians too you know. Especially southern Russians. Ukrainians weren't specifically singled out.

why does this matter?

the ukraine aren't allowed hate stalin because others suffered too?
I don't get you..

gandalf

There must be a report that's critical of Russia due out soon if the putinbots are resurfacing.

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

There must be a report that's critical of Russia due out soon if the putinbots are resurfacing.

Of course, here I am with my brand new ushanka on, counting the rubles that Putin paid me, waiting for my next order from my handler ''Siberian Fox'' who operates out of the Kremlin. Whatever fulfills your fantasies.

Have you any opinion on why the tapes are withheld from scrutiny? Is there a logical explanation why? Surely if the tapes confirm what was printed on the transcripts then releasing them shouldn't be an issue? Looking forward to your answer.

PopePalpatine

gandalf wrote: »

There must be a report that's critical of Russia due out soon if the putinbots are resurfacing.

Well, the team who released the Panama Papers are planning to open up a searchable database of 20,000 shell companies for the public soon.

Jimmy Garlic

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, the team who released the Panama Papers are planning to open up a searchable database of 20,000 shell companies for the public soon.

Haha. Putin must be shaking in his boots. Or maybe i'm mixing him up with David Cameron, who pocketed cash from his from his fathers shell company.

Lurkio

gandalf wrote: »

There must be a report that's critical of Russia due out soon if the putinbots are resurfacing.

Not Putinbots, noble souls inspired by unbreakable spirit of Russian people and great leader, Vladmir Putin.

Jimmy Garlic

Any chance you might answer the question I put to you about the tapes Gandalf? Or will you, like the rest of the ''Russia is evil'' crowd, just ignore things that don't jive with your bias?

gandalf

I thought the topic was about Ukrainian Nazis? Uncomfortable now people are showing the Russians have a problem that at least is on the same scale if not bigger with National Socialists?

Even worse Putins Russia is funding alot of the extremist political parties in Europe.

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

I thought the topic was about Ukrainian Nazis? Uncomfortable now people are showing the Russians have a problem that at least is on the same scale if not bigger with National Socialists?

Even worse Putins Russia is funding alot of the extremist political parties in Europe.

Right so. You won't answer the question. Fair enough. Back on topic. Is it acceptable that the countries within the EU, the EU itself, and the US are supporting a country which has a large element of neo-nazi vermin incorporated into its armed forces?

gandalf

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Right so. You won't answer the question. Fair enough. Back on topic. Is it acceptable that the countries within the EU, the EU itself, and the US are supporting a country which has a large element of neo-nazi vermin incorporated into its armed forces?

Is it acceptable for a country to be funding far right and far left political parties all over Europe then?

I'll give you a clue, that country isn't Ukraine. The country in questions leader is of quite short stature and reeks of corruption.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

here I am with my brand new ushanka on, counting the rubles that Putin paid me

Who wears a ushanka in this weather?

So, you forgot to answer....
What in your opinion brought down MH17?
SAM or AAM?

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

Is it acceptable for a country to be funding far right and far left political parties all over Europe then?

I'll give you a clue, that country isn't Ukraine. The country in questions leader is of quite short stature and reeks of corruption.

You are a slippery one Gandalf. I agree that it is not appropriate for Russia to interfere with the political process in other countries, but maybe since various ''NGOs'' have been interfering heavily in Russia Putin feels like it is fair game. Now, do you think it is appropriate for the US, EU and friends to support a country that has incorporated neo-nazi units into its armed forces?

Gatling

Rants of another plastic vladi

gandalf

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You are a slippery one Gandalf. I agree that it is not appropriate for Russia to interfere with the political process in other countries, but maybe since various ''NGOs'' have been interfering heavily in Russia Putin feels like it is fair game.

Bollix Putin and Russia have been interfering with European countries for years. In my opinion Russia under Putins rule is the biggest danger to European peace and stability.

Now, do you think it is appropriate for the US, EU and friends to support a country that has incorporated neo-nazi units into its armed forces?

It's not ideal and yes I think in an ideal world we shouldn't be supporting a country that has done this. But it's not an ideal world and the Ukraine has come under attack by it's larger nationalist militaristic neighbour so desperate times necessitate desperate measures.

gandalf

Happy May Day comrade Garlic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yDrtNEr_5M

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

Happy May Day comrade Garlic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yDrtNEr_5M

You're a very funny boy. This one is for you, enjoy..

BoJack Horseman

What do you think brought down MH17 Jimmy?

SAM or AAM?

Lurkio

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What do you think brought down MH17 Jimmy?

SAM or AAM?

Or a BEAR thrown by a man with no shirt on.

BoJack Horseman

Lurkio wrote: »

Or a BEAR thrown by a man with no shirt on.

Bears are impressive, transport & munition all rolled into one!

Lurkio

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Bears are impressive, transport & munition all rolled into one!

It's like a big sexy oppressive sex tank, that might accidentally end up on the wrong side of a border fighting alongside "rebels".

Dohnjoe

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With a torch light procession no less. I think that we all owe the Dutch a BIG thank you for saying no to ushering Ukraine into the EU. This kind of stuff is way too popular there -

Moscow sees itself engaged in an information war with Kiev (and the Western world) and has been focusing on any far-right groups in Ukraine

It would be like RTE news constantly reporting every EDL/BNP rally and march in the UK

There are far-right groups and neo-nazis in every country, (ironically including Russia, who are estimated to have half the world's total of neo-Nazis)

Not to say these groups aren't completely insignificant, and directly after the uprising some far-right politicians were given positions in the interim gov, however since then the far-right candidates got less than 2% of the vote in the elections in Ukraine. It's also common for the far-right to enjoy a resurgence of support during harsh economic times - Golden Dawn in Greece is a strong example

An increasing number of the main media outlets in Russia are influenced/controlled by the Kremlin and disinformation is commonplace

HensVassal

suicide_circus wrote: »

They can't abide it so much they had to shoot a passing passenger airliner out of the sky killing all on board.

Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner with not a single Ukrainian on board if they hated Ukrainians so much

Dohnjoe

HensVassal wrote: »

Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner with not a single Ukrainian on board if they hated Ukrainians so much

They were targeting all Ukrainian military aircraft

It's likely they mistook it for a Ukrainian transport (they had shot one down recently before)

HensVassal

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They were targeting all Ukrainian military aircraft

It's likely they mistook it for a Ukrainian transport (they had shot one down recently before)

Sounds a bit far fetched

Dohnjoe

HensVassal wrote: »

Sounds a bit far fetched

??

Investigations have shown MH17 was almost certainly shot down by a BUK launcher. It's unlikely they deliberately targeted an international airliner. Such airliners look similar to Ukrainian transports which can cruise at the same altitudes - transports which were being targeted with one being shot down just shortly before

What plausible alternative do you suggest happened?

HensVassal

Sand wrote: »

Neither am I. I wasn't there. It might have been shot down by a regular Russian military unit on 'holidays' or it might have been shot down by irregular Russian militias supplied with state level weaponry by Russia. But it certainly wasn't shot down by the Ukrainians, the US, the Jews, the Lizard people or whatever conspiracy theory your flowchart is pointing you to.

As for armchair generals...with you not able to tell the implications of an SAM vs. an AAM...I wouldn't be using your own lack of knowledge to discredit others views.

Given the thread has so easily derailed into (another) debate about Putins crimes in Ukraine, doesn't it highlight the shallow propaganda effort of the OP?

How do you know?

Gatling

It was the gay Butler with a cricket bat

BalcombeSt4

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Stalin, Mao and the North Korean regimes, all beloved of the Irish Far Left, have also all given Nazism a fair run for it when it comes to mass murder. And these are the types of regimes the Irish Far Left would have no problem with here.

In many respects the Far Left and the Far Right have a lot in common, particularly their admiration for mass murdering dictatorships, both of the past and the present.

I'd throw Lenin in there also. The New Left doesn't consider Marixist-Leninist ideologies as true "left". The goal of socialism was to improve rights for workers and to give them power, well there was nothing remotely like that in these countries.

BoJack Horseman

HensVassal wrote: »

How do you know?

What do you think brought down MH17?

(I asked Garlic a few times, but he went mute).

riffmongous

Do we really need another MH17 thread? It's been done to death and goes nowhere

BoJack Horseman

riffmongous wrote: »

Do we really need another MH17 thread? It's been done to death and goes nowhere

Consider it a social experiment....

Peering into the inner workings of the mind of a crank.

HensVassal

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They were targeting all Ukrainian military aircraft

It's likely they mistook it for a Ukrainian transport (they had shot one down recently before)

"likely"?

Well by your own admission then it was a mistake.
If they were targeting Ukrainian military craft and shot down a civilian then you admit that it was a mistake.

That being the case, why all the outrage? The United States have made multiple fatal mistakes where people have died. Bombing hospitals, bombing British tanks, imprisoning and torturing innocent people, etc.

If it was a simple mistake as you seem to suggest then why dwell on it?

HensVassal

Dohnjoe wrote: »

??

Investigations have shown MH17 was almost certainly shot down by a BUK launcher. It's unlikely they deliberately targeted an international airliner. Such airliners look similar to Ukrainian transports which can cruise at the same altitudes - transports which were being targeted with one being shot down just shortly before

What plausible alternative do you suggest happened?

I didn't answer your question.

Alternative? I don't know really. Is that important? If I doubt that Colonel Mustard killed the maid with the candlestick because I, well, am skeptcal, the onus isn't on me to provide an alternative, no? Yes?

HensVassal

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What do you think brought down MH17?

(I asked Garlic a few times, but he went mute).

Like I mentioned, I don't know and it seems you don't either. All we have is a Dutch investigation stating the plane was blown open by shrapnel.

BoJack Horseman

HensVassal wrote: »

I don't know.

The Dutch said it was a SAM & a lot of evidence points that way.

But I'm asking what you think knocked it out of the sky?

Do you think it was a SAM or an AAM?

feargale

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

going purely on the mass murder metric the far left put the far right into the ha'penny place.

As my granny would say, for some virtue is a lack of opportunity,

HensVassal

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The Dutch said it was a SAM & a lot of evidence points that way.

But I'm asking what you think knocked it out of the sky?

Do you think it was a SAM or an AAM?

Why are you asking me that?
It's irrelevant.

The same way as if I was skeptical about anything, the onus isn't upon me to provide an alternative explanation. The onus is upon those providing me with their original story to convince me beyond doubt. Then I won't be skeptical anymore.