94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

esforum

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I knew you would answer that. These people are old men.

so? So are plenty of paedophile priests.

So, the excuses are:

He was young and foolish when he did it, sure havent we all gone and joined a similar group, I know I still have my KKK membership card

and

Hes old now, sure hes in a wheelchair

(lets all ignore the 70 ****ing years he hid, denied and tried to escape justice)

KingBrian2

esforum wrote: »

so? So are plenty of paedophile priests.

So, the excuses are:

He was young and foolish when he did it, sure havent we all gone and joined a similar group, I know I still have my KKK membership card

and

Hes old now, sure hes in a wheelchair

(lets all ignore the 70 ****ing years he hid, denied and tried to escape justice)

I certainly don't agree with that assessment. It is the case though that all these SS officers have long since disavowed any relationship with the Third Reich. Their not well off. Also they are exiles from their homeland and their entire lives have already being transformed. In short they are not the same people. Let them live the rest of their days as pariahs.

Sand

esforum wrote: »

considering the SS were not part of the German military but were a fascist armed section of a political party, thats not true, They were not soldiers and they didnt select a prestigious unit within the army. THey were a seperate entity that were in many cases, not liked within the regular military



Correct, so what?

The ones that werent bastards were the Lorraine French and Russian POWs forced at gunpoint to join up. the VOLUNTEER German can make no such claim.



Also correct and that kinda proves the point against this man doesnt it? Others saved lives, he helped to keep them locked in a camp where he knew they would be killed and were being tortured. Including children.

Schindler was a Nazi member after it became cool and good for busineess and again, used his position to save lives. He didnt sign up to the SS and shoot people.



All Germans pointed guns at Jews in auschwitz and prevented them from escaping while making no attempt to aid them? Hmmm, not sure about that.

I get that the war was at a time when he was young, 17 when war broke out, but plenty when all is said and done, didnt wear that uniform and he COULD have done something for the prisoners, as you yourself say, SS officers did assist Jews in some cases.

"He was said to have joined the SS forces voluntarily in 1940 at the age of 18 at the urging of his stepmother." (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36168688)

An adult that made a conscience decision to join an organisation that was openly and actively harassing, abusing and killing Jews. Being naive or stupid is not a defence.

TBH, I'd think under the right circumstances, most human beings including yourself would join a prestigious unit and kill defenceless human beings. I would not absolve this guy of his crimes, but no one can prove he committed any he is being accused of. The idea that he would and *should* somehow single-handedly defeat the Holocaust is some juvenile powerfantasy by people who were not there and protest too much. Sure, he stood back and did nothing but most humans would have done exactly the same, and most likely so would you and so would I.

The lesson is not to criminalise him for being human. It is to learn to be vigilant - not to assume we are all virtuous naturally, but to armour ourselves. We need better leaders, who appeal to the best in humanity, not the worst. Because humans will follow them.

Sand

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Their must not be many of them left. Are these trials going to continue into the mid 21st century.

For as long as it takes to ensure the guilty are punished, or beyond mortal justice.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think people in that dire situation will worry that they might get prosecuted in decades time, sure imagine you have two choices 1. do your job and risk getting prosecuted decades later or 2. don't do your job and get a bullet. I know what most people would do.

There's something else to consider too, that in that situation, refusing to carry out the killing is not going to save the victim's life. It just means there will be two executions instead of one. I'm not sure what I would do if faced with that choice.

As to hunting down old men, well if old men have ordered or willingly carried out murders, they should be hunted down whatever age they are. The message needs to go out that such people will never ever be safe, and never able to stop looking over their shoulder, no matter how much time passes.

But...a guard, who was just a small cog in the machine? I'm not convinced that just being there (and Auschwitz was a big place) is enough basis to convict someone of a war crime. Assuming what he's saying is true, of course.

FTA69

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Their must not be many of them left. Are these trials going to continue into the mid 21st century.

So what if there aren't many left? What are they, endangered white rhinos to be preservered or something? You're talking about people who participated in the mass murder of defenceless innocent people. Sand is wholly correct, justice must be served when people commit such acts and there shouldn't be a time limit on it.

You sound almost sentimental when you discuss these people.

timthumbni

No doubt the British Labour Party will be campaigning for his release.

KingBrian2

Sand wrote: »

For as long as it takes to ensure the guilty are punished, or beyond mortal justice.

Nonsense their are plenty of war criminals around. The Black and Tans many of them were never brought to justice. The point i'm making is these guys having already been punished.

Sand

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Nonsense their are plenty of war criminals around. The Black and Tans many of them were never brought to justice. The point i'm making is these guys having already been punished.

Yes, there are plenty of war criminals around.

Yes, many of the Black and Tans were never brought to justice (though I recall a few were convicted in British courts of the most inexcusable murders).

Punished by who? Who have they been punished by?

I really don't see how any of this justifies ignoring provable crimes by people whose only defence is that it happened a long time ago. If the crimes are so blatant, and the evidence so definite that guilt can be proven 71 years later then they ought to be punished.

Sand

timthumbni wrote: »

No doubt the British Labour Party will be campaigning for his release.

Anti-Zionist jab?

Bobthefireman

If someone can march children to a gas chamber, knowing what fate lies there, then yes, the bastard should rot in jail. Pity it has taken so long.

Bobthefireman

Isn't it funny how he lived so long? Stress or guilt clearly were not eating away at him.

captbarnacles

Don't really know what use convicting him is. You may as well indict all Germans who who served in German armed forces in WW2 (Stalin proposed mass execution)

Hard to believe his request to be sent back to the Eastern front though - he might be on his own there.

Eugene Norman

storker wrote: »

There's something else to consider too, that in that situation, refusing to carry out the killing is not going to save the victim's life. It just means there will be two executions instead of one. I'm not sure what I would do if faced with that choice.

As to hunting down old men, well if old men have ordered or willingly carried out murders, they should be hunted down whatever age they are. The message needs to go out that such people will never ever be safe, and never able to stop looking over their shoulder, no matter how much time passes.

But...a guard, who was just a small cog in the machine? I'm not convinced that just being there (and Auschwitz was a big place) is enough basis to convict someone of a war crime. Assuming what he's saying is true, of course.

unless they win the war. Or lose and still be a superpower ( see Vietnam).

alan partridge aha

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

captbarnacles

I recommend reading 'Savage Continent' about the aftermath of WW2. We could indict millions from every country for war crimes.

alan partridge aha

enzo roco wrote: »

What did you expect to see??? I dont know why people go there?
Understandable for family members over the years to go to grieve.
But I know I would hate to see the place.

If you go to Krakow, you have to see Birkenau/Auschwitz. Tough eerie place alright but can't say it affected me too much. If I thought I would have been upset I wouldn't have gone.

wrote:

I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

Can we also see the trials of the many surviving British soldiers and officials who, in the dying days of the British Empire between 1952 and 1960 presided over the internment of a million Kenyans, and the deaths of up to 100,000 of them, in the euphemastically named "enclosed villages" and the mass executions following farsical British colonial "trials" of thousands more (heavily tortured) Kenyans?

Like hell we will.

How did they get away with it?

AudreyHepburn

It's honestly beyond me how anyone could have a problem with a man like this being punished.

Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing but the fact is he was at Auschwitz voluntarily and he stood by while gods know what sorts of atrocities were committed in front of him. Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

His age is irrelevant too as far as I'm concerned, you're never too old to be punished for crimes like his.

He's been allowed to live too long without punishment.....just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short for no other reason but their faith, all those who never got to reach their old age.

Sand

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

It is not what you know, it is what you can prove. Nobody even believe this man murdered anyone himself. He is instead being punished for not stopping others from murdering others - its a juvenile power-fantasy. "If it was me, I would have...."

Yeah, yeah, but it wasn't you.

timthumbni

alan partridge aha wrote: »

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's honestly beyond me how anyone could have a problem with a man like this being punished.

Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing but the fact is he was at Auschwitz and he stood by while gods know what sorts of atrocities were committed in front of him. Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

His age is irrelevant too as far as I'm concerned, you're never too old to be punished for crimes like his.

He's been allowed to live too long without punishment.....just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short for no other reason but their faith, all those who never got to reach their old age.

"Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing"
So he did not gas people. He is innocent of murder (at least there is no proof).

"Let's face it,he probably committed some himself."
That is your opinion and you cant convict based upon 'he probably did'.

"just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short"
You just said he didn't kill anyone


End of the day the man was in a messed up situation, he was injured on the front line and was forced to work in Auschwitz (which he asked to be moved from twice). He was a lowly guard who killed no one, bringing him to court 70 years later is pathetic in my opinion.

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we also see the trials of the many surviving British soldiers and officials who, in the dying days of the British Empire between 1952 and 1960 presided over the internment of a million Kenyans, and the deaths of up to 100,000 of them, in the euphemastically named "enclosed villages" and the mass executions following farsical British colonial "trials" of thousands more (heavily tortured) Kenyans?

Like hell we will.

How did they get away with it?

Major Off topic alert.... lol.

alan partridge aha

timthumbni wrote: »

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

You can't make good judgements with a biased attitude.

OttoPilot

OttoPilot wrote: »

Hypothetical question: if I was abducted by a serial killer and ordered to kill someone else they had captured under threat of being killed myself, would I be held responsible?

The guy in question apparently didn't kill anyone. So your question needs to be rephrased - if you were abducted by a serial killer and forced to stand by and watch someone else also under capture commit murder, would you be held responsible?


I have to say I see no point in prosecuting this man. It achieves nothing, it doesn't make anyone safer, at this remove from WW2 there's no benefit to society.

cowboyBuilder

alan partridge aha wrote: »

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

cowboyBuilder

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

What ferking example? He was just a guard that was doing what he had to do at the time!

So sacrifice an old man as a sacrificial lamb?

KingBrian2

timthumbni wrote: »

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

Age is a determining factor. If your younger than 18 you are treated as a minor and are not the same as the age group between 18-whatever. Should we be putting 90 year olds 80 year olds into prison? Those responsible for the killings were all tried in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's 1980's when the world was still full of their kind.

KingBrian2

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

Now that is uncalled for. Jews have suffered horrible but you can't make an enemy out of an entire religion. That's what's got Israel in the right state it is in at the moment.

HardenendMan

Realistically, what could the guy have done differently? His country was at war, he was following orders. There were men who could afford to do the right thing (Schindler), there were men who were pawns. He was a pawn. To let him off doesn't in any way condone the actions of the Nazis.

timthumbni

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Should we be putting 90 year olds 80 year olds into prison? Those responsible for the killings were all tried in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's 1980's when the world was still full of their kind.

Yes, if they are convicted in a court of law. What would you do with them? Play them some gentle harp music and tell them it's all ok????

Summer wind

Any of these guards that were in Auschwitz didn't care what age the people they were killing were. Why should we care what age these guards are now when they finally have to answer for their crimes against all those poor men women and children. If there is even a shred of evidence against this man of course he should be held responsible for his actions.

CrabRevolution

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

What is the other 99% of the justice that you reckon the jews deserve? They were given a carte blanch to colonise Palestine and boot the locals out, and are allowed brush off any criticism of their various crimes and atrocities against the Palestinians by simply bringing up anti semitism and the holocaust. If the jews are getting "justice" it was the Palestinians who suffered it.

On top of that, unlike pretty much any genocide or massacre in history Germany has paid billions of euros worth of reparations to Israel, as well as supplying billions of euros worth of military equipment for free, along with selling heavily discounted equipment.

captbarnacles

It turns my stomach reading of some of the nazi torturers who had their sentences commuted and went on to lead long successful lives but to blame this guy for not attempting to stop them is ridiculous.

FloatingVoter

CrabRevolution wrote: »

On top of that, unlike pretty much any genocide or massacre in history Germany has paid billions of euros worth of reparations to Israel, as well as supplying billions of euros worth of military equipment for free, along with selling heavily discounted equipment.

How much is your life worth to the nearest cent ?
Begin with €2 for the raw materials that your hair, skin, teeth, and bone matter work out at as raw materials.
Being modern we'll allow you to add a cent for your positive qualities, deduct for the negatives. Hell, make it 2c for any suffering.

Run into any trouble with the maths, and I think you'll find the calculations were already done by the Reich - nowhere near as generous as mine.

B.A._Baracus

For anyone that has Netflix you can watch the BBC documentary about Auschwitz in which he appears. Gives a more detailed account about what he did, and at one point, is asked a very up-front question about why did he continue to work/serve/accept with what happened there.

CrabRevolution

FloatingVoter wrote: »

How much is your life worth to the nearest cent ?
Begin with €2 for the raw materials that your hair, skin, teeth, and bone matter work out at as raw materials.
Being modern we'll allow you to add a cent for your positive qualities, deduct for the negatives. Hell, make it 2c for any suffering.

Run into any trouble with the maths, and I think you'll find the calculations were already done by the Reich - nowhere near as generous as mine.

What did Japan pay China for its atrocities? Do Armenians get anything off Turkey? What did the Hutu pay the Tutsi in Rwanda? Do the Serbs buy anything for Bosnia? Cambodians? Do the Roma get anything for dying in the same gas chambers as the Jews?

The answer is nothing of course, and most people don't care. If they do care, it's brushed off with "it was in the past, too late now".

I'm not arguing that the holocaust wasn't an utterly horrific crime, or that it wasn't one of humanity's darkest hours. I simply object to the way it is held as something totally on its own level from anything else in history and is presented as a perpetual unwavering justification for arbitrary punishments like these, and also as justification for Israel's actions.

Chain Smoker

It's not a great look for anyone involved imo.

There's a limited number of opportunities to prosecute people for these crimes remaining, I can understand the desire of survivors to get some kind of acknowledgement from everyone they can right up to their dying days and they do deserve that. But at a certain point it does little other than sacrifice some insignificant old man to show just how thoroughly the whole thing broke even those who survived it.

I don't really see what this guy was supposed to do, as it was happening he had little control, afterwards he wasn't going to be shown any mercy for confessing.

CrabRevolution

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not arguing that the holocaust wasn't an utterly horrific crime, or that it wasn't one of humanity's darkest hours. I simply object to the way it is held as something totally on its own level from anything else in history and is presented as a perpetual unwavering justification for arbitrary punishments like these, and also as justification for Israel's actions.

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

It's definitely used as a justification for its existence.

Eugene Norman

timthumbni wrote: »

[mentioning British atrocities in Kenya is a ] Major Off topic alert.... lol.

It wasn't. He was replying to me and I was replying to somebody who said this man should be brought to justice so that other perpetrators or enablers of mass killings would know they would always receive justice.

The fact is that the "justice" is meeted out to losers of wars not winners, which means it's not justice. It's a crap morality that wants a 17 year old in Aushwitch who wasn't involved in killing in jail at 94, while leaving the much younger perpetrators of much more recent mass killings (often by the west) free.

CrabRevolution

Deleted User wrote: »

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000342

Page full of them there.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/holocaust-israels-palestinians/

They want Iran on their Holocaust knees for political reasons. With the world on their Holocaust knees, Israel is unaccountable for its deeds. So Israel and many Jews believe.

http://qz.com/530073/the-holocausts-lesson-to-never-forget-now-justifies-the-thing-we-were-supposed-to-remember/

And of course, the Holocaust for Netanyahu means Israel is justified in whatever measures it takes in its long, grinding war against Gaza and the West Bank. Netanyahu’s big lie about the Mufti may be particularly egregious, but it’s hardly isolated. In the decades that followed World War II, the Holocaust has become a frequent rhetorical touchstone, used to justify practically anything. Unfortunately, that often means that the murder of millions of innocents has been employed to argue for more violence rather than peace.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/408268

The memory of the Holocaust has been deployed for various purposes. In the Arab-Israeli conflict it has been employed in part to buttress the legitimacy of the existence of the state of Israel and to support policies including settlement in the West Bank (Judea and Samaria).

mikeym

What a joke.

Some of the German people had no choice but to commit horrible things to the Jews during WW2.

Give the old man a suspended sentence if hes guilty.

I bet Hitler never murdered a Jew in his life, instead he got the Austrians/Germans to do the dirty work for him.

Mesrine65

MarkY91 wrote: »

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

Not worse, but on a par IMHO would be the Khmer Rouge regime, during its rule of Cambodia from 1975-1979, the Rwandan genocide, known officially in Rwanda as 'the genocide against the Tutsi' & The Yugoslav Wars, the ethnic conflicts fought inside the territory of the former Yugoslavia from 1991-2001.

Heckler

Seems he was a tiny cog in an industrial murder machine. Can't see any point in jailing a 94 year old.

The rape and murder by allied conquering forces is rarely questioned because the victors write history.

The Nazi genocide plan is to me incomprehensible in its evil. That educated, intelligent men sat around a table and came up with the Final Solution. To this day it beggers belief.

I've never been to the camps but have been to the beaches at Normandy and both US and German cemeteries in France and the weight of lives lost is palpable.

arybvtcw0eolkf

tomwaterford wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him

He has admitted he served in the camp.

IMO this is a bullsh*t trial of a very old man.

So who else should face war crimes, each and every US and British soldier who was involved in any way, shape or form in the invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people?.

BS, leave the man go.

esforum

Sand wrote: »

TBH, I'd think under the right circumstances, most human beings including yourself would join a prestigious unit and kill defenceless human beings. I would not absolve this guy of his crimes, but no one can prove he committed any he is being accused of. The idea that he would and *should* somehow single-handedly defeat the Holocaust is some juvenile powerfantasy by people who were not there and protest too much. Sure, he stood back and did nothing but most humans would have done exactly the same, and most likely so would you and so would I.

The lesson is not to criminalise him for being human. It is to learn to be vigilant - not to assume we are all virtuous naturally, but to armour ourselves. We need better leaders, who appeal to the best in humanity, not the worst. Because humans will follow them.

hors****. Millions of Germans did NOT join the SS, many helped Jews.

Being a coward or a sheep or a mix of both is not a defence.

He did what he did, his motives are irelevent, he acted in a certain manner.

If theres insufficient evidence that he faciliatated the slaughter then he will be found innocent.

the arguements that just because we dont convict everyone is also rubbish, theres people that get away with crimes, doesnt mean we stop chasing criminals.

And being in the SS is not the same as a Marine in Iraq. The US are not taking part in genocide of a people nor, and I fail to understand why I need to repeat this again, were the SS a military unit. They were a paramilitary unit of the Nazi party.

I would also appreciate it if people could advise what age and time limits they feel should apply. How long can you dodge jail before its considered ok to ignore your crimes and arent we also constantly saying the justice system needs to consider the victim above the offender?

bilston

Reyna Cool Stool wrote: »

tomwaterford wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him

He has admitted he served in the camp.

IMO this is a bullsh*t trial of a very old man.

So who else should face war crimes, each and every US and British soldier who was involved in any way, shape or form in the invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people?.

No, just the ones who committed war crimes.

I'm not aware of any members of the Wehrmacht being prosecuted for invading France or Poland.

Irish Guitarist

Jews worked in slave labour camps making bombs that would be dropped on Britain. Technically they could have refused but they would have been executed. This guard may have faced a similar situation.

esforum

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Jews worked in slave labour camps making bombs that would be dropped on Britain. Technically they could have refused but they would have been executed. This guard may have faced a similar situation.

at what stage did the Jews 'volunteer' to be jews or prisoners? HE WAS A VOUNTEER SS MEMBER