94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

Bobthefireman

If someone can march children to a gas chamber, knowing what fate lies there, then yes, the bastard should rot in jail. Pity it has taken so long.

Bobthefireman

Isn't it funny how he lived so long? Stress or guilt clearly were not eating away at him.

captbarnacles

Don't really know what use convicting him is. You may as well indict all Germans who who served in German armed forces in WW2 (Stalin proposed mass execution)

Hard to believe his request to be sent back to the Eastern front though - he might be on his own there.

Eugene Norman

storker wrote: »

There's something else to consider too, that in that situation, refusing to carry out the killing is not going to save the victim's life. It just means there will be two executions instead of one. I'm not sure what I would do if faced with that choice.

As to hunting down old men, well if old men have ordered or willingly carried out murders, they should be hunted down whatever age they are. The message needs to go out that such people will never ever be safe, and never able to stop looking over their shoulder, no matter how much time passes.

But...a guard, who was just a small cog in the machine? I'm not convinced that just being there (and Auschwitz was a big place) is enough basis to convict someone of a war crime. Assuming what he's saying is true, of course.

unless they win the war. Or lose and still be a superpower ( see Vietnam).

alan partridge aha

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

captbarnacles

I recommend reading 'Savage Continent' about the aftermath of WW2. We could indict millions from every country for war crimes.

alan partridge aha

enzo roco wrote: »

What did you expect to see??? I dont know why people go there?
Understandable for family members over the years to go to grieve.
But I know I would hate to see the place.

If you go to Krakow, you have to see Birkenau/Auschwitz. Tough eerie place alright but can't say it affected me too much. If I thought I would have been upset I wouldn't have gone.

wrote:

I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

Can we also see the trials of the many surviving British soldiers and officials who, in the dying days of the British Empire between 1952 and 1960 presided over the internment of a million Kenyans, and the deaths of up to 100,000 of them, in the euphemastically named "enclosed villages" and the mass executions following farsical British colonial "trials" of thousands more (heavily tortured) Kenyans?

Like hell we will.

How did they get away with it?

AudreyHepburn

It's honestly beyond me how anyone could have a problem with a man like this being punished.

Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing but the fact is he was at Auschwitz voluntarily and he stood by while gods know what sorts of atrocities were committed in front of him. Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

His age is irrelevant too as far as I'm concerned, you're never too old to be punished for crimes like his.

He's been allowed to live too long without punishment.....just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short for no other reason but their faith, all those who never got to reach their old age.

Sand

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

It is not what you know, it is what you can prove. Nobody even believe this man murdered anyone himself. He is instead being punished for not stopping others from murdering others - its a juvenile power-fantasy. "If it was me, I would have...."

Yeah, yeah, but it wasn't you.

timthumbni

alan partridge aha wrote: »

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's honestly beyond me how anyone could have a problem with a man like this being punished.

Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing but the fact is he was at Auschwitz and he stood by while gods know what sorts of atrocities were committed in front of him. Let's face it,he probably committed some himself.

His age is irrelevant too as far as I'm concerned, you're never too old to be punished for crimes like his.

He's been allowed to live too long without punishment.....just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short for no other reason but their faith, all those who never got to reach their old age.

"Ok he may not have been the one who did the gassing"
So he did not gas people. He is innocent of murder (at least there is no proof).

"Let's face it,he probably committed some himself."
That is your opinion and you cant convict based upon 'he probably did'.

"just think for a moment about all those whose lives he cut short"
You just said he didn't kill anyone


End of the day the man was in a messed up situation, he was injured on the front line and was forced to work in Auschwitz (which he asked to be moved from twice). He was a lowly guard who killed no one, bringing him to court 70 years later is pathetic in my opinion.

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we also see the trials of the many surviving British soldiers and officials who, in the dying days of the British Empire between 1952 and 1960 presided over the internment of a million Kenyans, and the deaths of up to 100,000 of them, in the euphemastically named "enclosed villages" and the mass executions following farsical British colonial "trials" of thousands more (heavily tortured) Kenyans?

Like hell we will.

How did they get away with it?

Major Off topic alert.... lol.

alan partridge aha

timthumbni wrote: »

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

You can't make good judgements with a biased attitude.

OttoPilot

OttoPilot wrote: »

Hypothetical question: if I was abducted by a serial killer and ordered to kill someone else they had captured under threat of being killed myself, would I be held responsible?

The guy in question apparently didn't kill anyone. So your question needs to be rephrased - if you were abducted by a serial killer and forced to stand by and watch someone else also under capture commit murder, would you be held responsible?


I have to say I see no point in prosecuting this man. It achieves nothing, it doesn't make anyone safer, at this remove from WW2 there's no benefit to society.

cowboyBuilder

alan partridge aha wrote: »

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

cowboyBuilder

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

What ferking example? He was just a guard that was doing what he had to do at the time!

So sacrifice an old man as a sacrificial lamb?

KingBrian2

timthumbni wrote: »

So age should be a barrier to justice. If this man had killed your father, grandfather, etc then I would be interested to hear your opinion. Are you related to red Ken by any chance??

Age is a determining factor. If your younger than 18 you are treated as a minor and are not the same as the age group between 18-whatever. Should we be putting 90 year olds 80 year olds into prison? Those responsible for the killings were all tried in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's 1980's when the world was still full of their kind.

KingBrian2

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

Now that is uncalled for. Jews have suffered horrible but you can't make an enemy out of an entire religion. That's what's got Israel in the right state it is in at the moment.

HardenendMan

Realistically, what could the guy have done differently? His country was at war, he was following orders. There were men who could afford to do the right thing (Schindler), there were men who were pawns. He was a pawn. To let him off doesn't in any way condone the actions of the Nazis.

timthumbni

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Should we be putting 90 year olds 80 year olds into prison? Those responsible for the killings were all tried in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's 1980's when the world was still full of their kind.

Yes, if they are convicted in a court of law. What would you do with them? Play them some gentle harp music and tell them it's all ok????

Summer wind

Any of these guards that were in Auschwitz didn't care what age the people they were killing were. Why should we care what age these guards are now when they finally have to answer for their crimes against all those poor men women and children. If there is even a shred of evidence against this man of course he should be held responsible for his actions.

CrabRevolution

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So what ?

This trial is symbolic, it needs to happen and example be made out of him, no matter how little time he has left.

The Jews have not had 1% of the justice they deserve, and with the decimation of their population and 1.2 billion people(and growing) in this world that would happily see them wiped out - this is a small consolation.

What is the other 99% of the justice that you reckon the jews deserve? They were given a carte blanch to colonise Palestine and boot the locals out, and are allowed brush off any criticism of their various crimes and atrocities against the Palestinians by simply bringing up anti semitism and the holocaust. If the jews are getting "justice" it was the Palestinians who suffered it.

On top of that, unlike pretty much any genocide or massacre in history Germany has paid billions of euros worth of reparations to Israel, as well as supplying billions of euros worth of military equipment for free, along with selling heavily discounted equipment.

captbarnacles

It turns my stomach reading of some of the nazi torturers who had their sentences commuted and went on to lead long successful lives but to blame this guy for not attempting to stop them is ridiculous.

FloatingVoter

CrabRevolution wrote: »

On top of that, unlike pretty much any genocide or massacre in history Germany has paid billions of euros worth of reparations to Israel, as well as supplying billions of euros worth of military equipment for free, along with selling heavily discounted equipment.

How much is your life worth to the nearest cent ?
Begin with €2 for the raw materials that your hair, skin, teeth, and bone matter work out at as raw materials.
Being modern we'll allow you to add a cent for your positive qualities, deduct for the negatives. Hell, make it 2c for any suffering.

Run into any trouble with the maths, and I think you'll find the calculations were already done by the Reich - nowhere near as generous as mine.

B.A._Baracus

For anyone that has Netflix you can watch the BBC documentary about Auschwitz in which he appears. Gives a more detailed account about what he did, and at one point, is asked a very up-front question about why did he continue to work/serve/accept with what happened there.

CrabRevolution

FloatingVoter wrote: »

How much is your life worth to the nearest cent ?
Begin with €2 for the raw materials that your hair, skin, teeth, and bone matter work out at as raw materials.
Being modern we'll allow you to add a cent for your positive qualities, deduct for the negatives. Hell, make it 2c for any suffering.

Run into any trouble with the maths, and I think you'll find the calculations were already done by the Reich - nowhere near as generous as mine.

What did Japan pay China for its atrocities? Do Armenians get anything off Turkey? What did the Hutu pay the Tutsi in Rwanda? Do the Serbs buy anything for Bosnia? Cambodians? Do the Roma get anything for dying in the same gas chambers as the Jews?

The answer is nothing of course, and most people don't care. If they do care, it's brushed off with "it was in the past, too late now".

I'm not arguing that the holocaust wasn't an utterly horrific crime, or that it wasn't one of humanity's darkest hours. I simply object to the way it is held as something totally on its own level from anything else in history and is presented as a perpetual unwavering justification for arbitrary punishments like these, and also as justification for Israel's actions.

Chain Smoker

It's not a great look for anyone involved imo.

There's a limited number of opportunities to prosecute people for these crimes remaining, I can understand the desire of survivors to get some kind of acknowledgement from everyone they can right up to their dying days and they do deserve that. But at a certain point it does little other than sacrifice some insignificant old man to show just how thoroughly the whole thing broke even those who survived it.

I don't really see what this guy was supposed to do, as it was happening he had little control, afterwards he wasn't going to be shown any mercy for confessing.

CrabRevolution

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not arguing that the holocaust wasn't an utterly horrific crime, or that it wasn't one of humanity's darkest hours. I simply object to the way it is held as something totally on its own level from anything else in history and is presented as a perpetual unwavering justification for arbitrary punishments like these, and also as justification for Israel's actions.

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

It's definitely used as a justification for its existence.