94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

Eugene Norman

timthumbni wrote: »

[mentioning British atrocities in Kenya is a ] Major Off topic alert.... lol.

It wasn't. He was replying to me and I was replying to somebody who said this man should be brought to justice so that other perpetrators or enablers of mass killings would know they would always receive justice.

The fact is that the "justice" is meeted out to losers of wars not winners, which means it's not justice. It's a crap morality that wants a 17 year old in Aushwitch who wasn't involved in killing in jail at 94, while leaving the much younger perpetrators of much more recent mass killings (often by the west) free.

CrabRevolution

Deleted User wrote: »

Hands up, I have never heard of this "Holocaust used as justification for Israel's actions".

Could you give references, thanks.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000342

Page full of them there.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/holocaust-israels-palestinians/

They want Iran on their Holocaust knees for political reasons. With the world on their Holocaust knees, Israel is unaccountable for its deeds. So Israel and many Jews believe.

http://qz.com/530073/the-holocausts-lesson-to-never-forget-now-justifies-the-thing-we-were-supposed-to-remember/

And of course, the Holocaust for Netanyahu means Israel is justified in whatever measures it takes in its long, grinding war against Gaza and the West Bank. Netanyahu’s big lie about the Mufti may be particularly egregious, but it’s hardly isolated. In the decades that followed World War II, the Holocaust has become a frequent rhetorical touchstone, used to justify practically anything. Unfortunately, that often means that the murder of millions of innocents has been employed to argue for more violence rather than peace.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/408268

The memory of the Holocaust has been deployed for various purposes. In the Arab-Israeli conflict it has been employed in part to buttress the legitimacy of the existence of the state of Israel and to support policies including settlement in the West Bank (Judea and Samaria).

mikeym

What a joke.

Some of the German people had no choice but to commit horrible things to the Jews during WW2.

Give the old man a suspended sentence if hes guilty.

I bet Hitler never murdered a Jew in his life, instead he got the Austrians/Germans to do the dirty work for him.

Mesrine65

MarkY91 wrote: »

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

Not worse, but on a par IMHO would be the Khmer Rouge regime, during its rule of Cambodia from 1975-1979, the Rwandan genocide, known officially in Rwanda as 'the genocide against the Tutsi' & The Yugoslav Wars, the ethnic conflicts fought inside the territory of the former Yugoslavia from 1991-2001.

Heckler

Seems he was a tiny cog in an industrial murder machine. Can't see any point in jailing a 94 year old.

The rape and murder by allied conquering forces is rarely questioned because the victors write history.

The Nazi genocide plan is to me incomprehensible in its evil. That educated, intelligent men sat around a table and came up with the Final Solution. To this day it beggers belief.

I've never been to the camps but have been to the beaches at Normandy and both US and German cemeteries in France and the weight of lives lost is palpable.

arybvtcw0eolkf

tomwaterford wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him

He has admitted he served in the camp.

IMO this is a bullsh*t trial of a very old man.

So who else should face war crimes, each and every US and British soldier who was involved in any way, shape or form in the invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people?.

BS, leave the man go.

esforum

Sand wrote: »

TBH, I'd think under the right circumstances, most human beings including yourself would join a prestigious unit and kill defenceless human beings. I would not absolve this guy of his crimes, but no one can prove he committed any he is being accused of. The idea that he would and *should* somehow single-handedly defeat the Holocaust is some juvenile powerfantasy by people who were not there and protest too much. Sure, he stood back and did nothing but most humans would have done exactly the same, and most likely so would you and so would I.

The lesson is not to criminalise him for being human. It is to learn to be vigilant - not to assume we are all virtuous naturally, but to armour ourselves. We need better leaders, who appeal to the best in humanity, not the worst. Because humans will follow them.

hors****. Millions of Germans did NOT join the SS, many helped Jews.

Being a coward or a sheep or a mix of both is not a defence.

He did what he did, his motives are irelevent, he acted in a certain manner.

If theres insufficient evidence that he faciliatated the slaughter then he will be found innocent.

the arguements that just because we dont convict everyone is also rubbish, theres people that get away with crimes, doesnt mean we stop chasing criminals.

And being in the SS is not the same as a Marine in Iraq. The US are not taking part in genocide of a people nor, and I fail to understand why I need to repeat this again, were the SS a military unit. They were a paramilitary unit of the Nazi party.

I would also appreciate it if people could advise what age and time limits they feel should apply. How long can you dodge jail before its considered ok to ignore your crimes and arent we also constantly saying the justice system needs to consider the victim above the offender?

bilston

Reyna Cool Stool wrote: »

tomwaterford wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him

He has admitted he served in the camp.

IMO this is a bullsh*t trial of a very old man.

So who else should face war crimes, each and every US and British soldier who was involved in any way, shape or form in the invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people?.

No, just the ones who committed war crimes.

I'm not aware of any members of the Wehrmacht being prosecuted for invading France or Poland.

Irish Guitarist

Jews worked in slave labour camps making bombs that would be dropped on Britain. Technically they could have refused but they would have been executed. This guard may have faced a similar situation.

esforum

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Jews worked in slave labour camps making bombs that would be dropped on Britain. Technically they could have refused but they would have been executed. This guard may have faced a similar situation.

at what stage did the Jews 'volunteer' to be jews or prisoners? HE WAS A VOUNTEER SS MEMBER

Irish Guitarist

This is the same kind of revisionist history that has people comfortably sitting at their keyboard criticising the last pope for being a Nazi when in fact he was a scared child who joined the Hitler Youth because it was required by law.

It's easy to sit at your keyboard saying how you'd tell Hitler to fuck off with himself.

esforum

good man, avoid the subject completely.

I suppose we should drop this case and ignore the victim as well?

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/gardai-could-quiz-90-year-7865560

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sand wrote: »

TBH, I'd think under the right circumstances, most human beings including yourself would join a prestigious unit and kill defenceless human beings. .

Its very easy to get people to go to war, to commit awful deeds in time of war and yes its easy to get them to kill innocent people.

You use propaganda to belittle your intended victims, to show they're vermin and a threat to national interests. You ridicule the peace makers, lock them up, attack their homes, families and businesses.

When those young men go off to war you threat them like celebrities when they return on leave, on sick leave or at the end of their tour ~ you shower them with medals, thank them for their service. Applaud their deeds at the theatre, give them free passes to shows, let them skip ques in cafes and bars etc.

It worked in WWII and its working today in the USA.

Hans Bricks

A wounded frontline soldier who took up guard duties ? War crimes ? This all seems very vindictive. You'd swear he was the inspiration for Ralph Fiennes character in Schindler's List. Dare I say it, I think unless another one of the senior boys in Brazil or Argentina is uncovered, let it go.

A_Sober_Paddy

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

Granted, but what about the allies who knew about it and did nothing until they started to worry about being possible invaded

Bobthefireman

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Granted, but what about the allies who knew about it and did nothing until they started to worry about being possible invaded

But 'what about'.............

Jimoslimos

timthumbni wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we also see the trials of the many surviving British soldiers and officials who, in the dying days of the British Empire between 1952 and 1960 presided over the internment of a million Kenyans, and the deaths of up to 100,000 of them, in the euphemastically named "enclosed villages" and the mass executions following farsical British colonial "trials" of thousands more (heavily tortured) Kenyans?

Like hell we will.

How did they get away with it?

Major Off topic alert.... lol.

Off topic you say...

timthumbni wrote: »

No doubt the British Labour Party will be campaigning for his release.

kowloon

MarkY91 wrote: »

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZYQluJW-dM

end of the road

CrabRevolution wrote: »

What is the other 99% of the justice that you reckon the jews deserve? They were given a carte blanch to colonise Palestine and boot the locals out, and are allowed brush off any criticism of their various crimes and atrocities against the Palestinians by simply bringing up anti semitism and the holocaust. If the jews are getting "justice" it was the Palestinians who suffered it.

On top of that, unlike pretty much any genocide or massacre in history Germany has paid billions of euros worth of reparations to Israel, as well as supplying billions of euros worth of military equipment for free, along with selling heavily discounted equipment.

exactly. israel has got more then enough from germany. in fact, they shouldn't have got anything from germany considering they didn't exist until a few years after the war ended. any reperations should have been paid to the families of those killed. when does germany have to stop paying anything to israel?

as for this 94 year old, the only reason he should be on trial is for commiting a crime. not for this "make an example" bs which is only political /doing something to be seen to be doing something bull.

esforum

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Granted, but what about the allies who knew about it and did nothing until they started to worry about being possible invaded

you think NOT invading a country and stopping them is as culpable as voluntarily joining a paramilitary force within the country and participating?

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's a crap morality that wants a 17 year old in Aushwitch who wasn't involved in killing in jail at 94, while leaving the much younger perpetrators of much more recent mass killings (often by the west) free.

what 17 year old? He didnt even join the SS until he was 18. He was 20 when he saw the camp

Hans Bricks wrote: »

A wounded frontline soldier who took up guard duties ? War crimes ? This all seems very vindictive. You'd swear he was the inspiration for Ralph Fiennes character in Schindler's List. Dare I say it, I think unless another one of the senior boys in Brazil or Argentina is uncovered, let it go.

he wasnt a soldier anymore than the blueshirts were members of the defence forces here

Perhaps he was on duty in 1944

Mesrine65

bilston wrote: »

I'm not aware of any members of the Wehrmacht being prosecuted for invading France or Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

esforum

Mesrine65 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

That doesnt address the comment made at all, that refers to war crimes, not invading France and Poland which is what was stated.

B_Wayne

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I knew you would answer that. These people are old men.

alan partridge aha wrote: »

I honestly believe they shouldn't be having this trial, the man is 94 years of age.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

This is the same kind of revisionist history that has people comfortably sitting at their keyboard criticising the last pope for being a Nazi when in fact he was a scared child who joined the Hitler Youth because it was required by law.

It's easy to sit at your keyboard saying how you'd tell Hitler to fuck off with himself.

It was not mandatory to join the SS... He made the choice to join the SS, a political militarised wing of the Nazi party, so just following orders doesn't exactly fly. Specific wings of the Nazi party were classified as criminal organisations by the Nuremberg trials, this included high command, leaders of party, the SS and Gestapo..

They were groups that were incredibly powerful in contrast to the average civilian and were not remotely comparable to the average low ranking soldier. Putting this man on trial is not revisionism. Prosecuting these individuals is based on the finding of the trials. Do I feel sympathy for him because he's 94? Nope, feeling bad does not reverse his decision to be complicit at time.

Skylinehead

bilston wrote: »

No, just the ones who committed war crimes.

I'm not aware of any members of the Wehrmacht being prosecuted for invading France or Poland.

Keitel, Goering, Jodl? They were all charged with waging wars of aggression at Nuremberg.

jony_dols

I remember reading a piece last year in the Sunday Times Magazine regarding the last survivors of the Armenian genocide, an est. 1.5 M were systematically murdered by the Turks. Most of those that managed to survive, never got to return home...Where were they're reparations, memorials, Nuremberg-esque show trials, outpourings of international sympathy? Up until 1990's they're were plenty of victims & culprits still alive...yet most people have never even heard of it.

Instead we get a bottom-of-the-bottom wrung, 94-year old ex-soldier, getting blamed for the horrors of the Holocaust, just because he happens to be the last schmuck standing. It's like saying that a security guard at an Apple store, holds as much sway regarding Apple's business strategy, as Tim Cook

KingBrian2

esforum wrote: »

hors****. Millions of Germans did NOT join the SS, many helped Jews.

Being a coward or a sheep or a mix of both is not a defence.

He did what he did, his motives are irelevent, he acted in a certain manner.

If theres insufficient evidence that he faciliatated the slaughter then he will be found innocent.

the arguements that just because we dont convict everyone is also rubbish, theres people that get away with crimes, doesnt mean we stop chasing criminals.

And being in the SS is not the same as a Marine in Iraq. The US are not taking part in genocide of a people nor, and I fail to understand why I need to repeat this again, were the SS a military unit. They were a paramilitary unit of the Nazi party.

I would also appreciate it if people could advise what age and time limits they feel should apply. How long can you dodge jail before its considered ok to ignore your crimes and arent we also constantly saying the justice system needs to consider the victim above the offender?

SS is more comparable to the CIA than the Marine. They had powers to behave as the saw fit. SS officers took control of the battlefield like no other force. They even hired insurgent groups from across Europe. So their atrocities are well known across the land.

esforum

KingBrian2 wrote: »

SS is more comparable to the CIA than the Marine. They had powers to behave as the saw fit. SS officers took control of the battlefield like no other force. They even hired insurgent groups from across Europe. So their atrocities are well known across the land.

for the second time, why are you quoting me when you state this? I am well aware that the SS were not soldiers.

CIA qould be a bad fit, the IRA would actually be a good comparison. Imagine SF getting power and then turning around and making the IRA legal and powerful in mainstream society while telling the military and Gardai that they are now top dogs

KingBrian2

esforum wrote: »

for the second time, why are you quoting me when you state this? I am well aware that the SS were not soldiers.

CIA qould be a bad fit, the IRA would actually be a good comparison. Imagine SF getting power and then turning around and making the IRA legal and powerful in mainstream society while telling the military and Gardai that they are now top dogs

CIA is a similar version of the Gestapo. A quasi terrorist organization and the IRA would be up there as well.

K-9

karma_ wrote: »

None of what you describe happened, at all. There's a thread next door to this one about the Ukrainian SS Galacian unit. Something like 7000 of it's members were relocated to Britain post war because the Allied powers didn;t want to send them back to the USSR in case they were persecuted, essentially protecting them.

Many other veterans like I said ended up in mainstream German political parties.

They did indeed, some in the police and intelligence services too.

Others went onto big jobs in East Germany. Imagine that, a Nazi and the Stasi in one lifetime.

I don't know, prosecuting a 94 year old just seems strange.

K-9

Sand wrote: »

Just on this point - a lot of Germans (and other nationalities - the holocaust was an international effort with volunteers from the Atlantic to the Urals) post war did point to their fear that if they rebelled against their service that they or their families would be targeted and reprisals would be carried out. There is however almost no occurrences of this ever happening. If anything, the Nazis recognised the evil acts they were carrying out were monstrous, they rationalised them as necessary to 'save' future generations and were if anything sympathetic to those who could not 'bear the burden'.

I referenced a case of a Wehrmacht driver who not only rescued Jews in Latvia but drove them back and forth in his army truck to meetings with the local resistance who were smuggling them out of the country. Now, when caught he was tried and executed for 'treason' but his family were completely unharmed, and he was even allowed to write a letter to his wife apologising to her, saying that she ought to know that with his big heart he couldn't not help people who were so desperate.

The terrifying thing from the holocaust and the nazi era is not that Germany 'went mad' or that there is something particularly bloodythirsty or evil about Germans. That's too easy - its that humans are generally 'followers'. Just like bullying the quiet kid in school, it suddenly became socially acceptable to murder and kill entire groups in WW2 Germany. And human beings fell into line for pretty much the same reason that no one stands up to the bully in school. People take their cues from their leaders - the very few who stand against the tide are sometimes heroes but they are very definitely different. Ex-Nazis might claim they feared for their own lives or the lives of their families, but what they really feared was being excluded by the group. The vast majority of human beings will do anything to avoid being outside the group.

You see the same story with pretty much every brutality, though the scale varies - if you look at war crimes carried out by military units in Afghanistan and Iraq, the root cause in small units is always the NCOs permitting or even encouraging those acts of brutality and the lower ranks trying to impress the NCOs by being brutal enough.

You only have to look at Hillsborough this week to see what a small group, indoctrinated in a certain way of thinking, can do. A small lie or cover up suddenly takes on a life of its own.