94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

domrush

osarusan wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favour of leaving him alone just because he's an old man.

But I'd like to see exactly what the law is here (I'm assuming/hoping it is something more nuanced than 'you were there so you're a mass murderer'), exactly what evidence there is of his alleged crimes under that law, and what his defence is.

Because he's admitted to being there he can be tried as an accessory to murder. Meaning this man who likely had to guard a fence against his will is now being charged with helping to murder 170,000 people.

12Phase

It's a trial. He'll have due process and a reasonable system of justice and at worst, if he were convicted he will be in a boring prison with decent food and a comfortable bed, healthcare and so on.

It's a hell of lot more than those who were on the other side of the fence at those places ever got.

It seems totally reasonable to go ahead with it. These things need to be properly investigated.

Dyr

12Phase wrote: »

It's a trail. He'll have due process and a reasonable system of justice and at worst, if he were convicted he will be in a boring prison with decent food and a comfortable bed, healthcare and so on.

It's a hell of lot more than those who were on the other side of the fence at those places ever got.

I don't think you'll get due process or a reasonable system of justice in Germany with these cases, they're legal system is fairly neurotic about this it seems.

12Phase

They've a fairly codified legal system though. It's not all that extremely adversarial like ours. I can't really see it being that neurotic.

He's also got rights to appeal, including to the European Courts, just like anyone else has.

All I'm a saying is he's not facing the death sentence or something. It's not 1951. At the end of the day it brings closure and crimes do have to be gotten to the bottom of.

It's also important politically to show that modern society won't stand for what was done. If you give someone the get out or jail free card, you're basically handing a "ah it's grand" card to elements of extremism who glorify the nazi era.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

He could have asked for a transfer. AFAIK it was easily done.

Six million Jews were killed during WWII by the Germans and their allies, another six million non-Jews were also killed. The Soviet Union and it's constituent nations lost roughly twenty million during the war as did China.

A lot of Japanese also got off Scott Free.


Six million died in the Second Congo War.
How many would have died had Stalin killed off 60,000 (or 59,000) German officers at the end of the war ?

He asked for a transfer twice!

thattequilagirl

Why are they only getting around to prosecuting him now?

thattequilagirl

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Why are they only getting around to prosecuting him now?

Probably because they were after bigger fish who all died and now all that is really left is lowly guards. They seem to want to prosecute anyone they can involved, even if they weren't involved in killings.

esforum

tiger55 wrote: »

I am sure you would.

Easy for you to say such things from the comfort of the internet.

Get a grip.

quality arguement.

Bob24

Deleted User wrote: »

The holocaust was one of, if not the worst tragedy in human history. How can you say that is a stupid statement?

He has a point though ... your statement "undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history" tends to show disregard for a lot of other horrible things which happened in human history by saying the Holocaust was clearly worse.

I don't want to make a judgement call myself, but would you have no hesitation in saying Mao Zedong's reign was not more horrible? (while making a judgement call is difficult, being in a Chinese labour camp during the Cultural Revolution was probably pretty horrible as well and even though of course it is not a number contest, it is difficult to ignore that roughtly 3 times more people died in Mao's prisons and camps during that time than jewish people got killed by the Germans).

On the topic itself ... it really is a tough one. I fully understand holocaust survivors can't forgive, but at the same time that man was caught-up in a system which got him to do that and it is difficult to judge how much of a choice he had. To take what probably is a slightly more extreme but more contemporary exemple: can anyone really blame a North Korean soldier shooting people escaping labour camps with not hesitation, taking not account the fact that it he doesn't he will be the one getting shot (and possibly the rest of his family).

Clearly people who didn't pay enough for what they did are the ones which were at the top of this system. The low-level executants, I really don't know.

K-9

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Not forgetting all those patriotic German scientists who developed the rockets that reigned down on UK city's murdering tens of thousands of people

No courtrooms for them only nice jobs in NASA HQ putting the USA on the moon

Indeed, but the US had to get them before those pesky commies got them!

JoseWasntReady

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. israel has got more then enough from germany. in fact, they shouldn't have got anything from germany considering they didn't exist until a few years after the war ended. any reperations should have been paid to the families of those killed. when does germany have to stop paying anything to israel?

And where do millions of those family members live?

Harika

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. israel has got more then enough from germany. in fact, they shouldn't have got anything from germany considering they didn't exist until a few years after the war ended. any reperations should have been paid to the families of those killed. when does germany have to stop paying anything to israel?

In 2015/2014 how much did Germany pay to Israel as compensation for WW2?

Wibbs

Harika wrote: »

In 2015/2014 how much did Germany pay to Israel as compensation for WW2?

In 2015/2014 how much did Israel pay to the Palestinians as compensation for population displacement since 1947 and ongoing down to today? You would think a people that god knows have had shít visited upon them might, just might see the issues, never mind the irony and to be fair quite a few do, but few enough in government with any power.

Harika

Wibbs wrote: »

In 2015/2014 how much did Israel pay to the Palestinians as compensation for population displacement since 1947 and ongoing down to today? You would think a people that god knows have had shít visited upon them might, just might see the issues, never mind the irony and to be fair quite a few do, but few enough in government with any power.

So Germany wasn't paying anything in 2015 and 2014 to Israel, is this what you wanted to say?

Capt'n Midnight

Harika wrote: »

In 2015/2014 how much did Germany pay to Israel as compensation for WW2?

Israel wasn't a state during WWII, that area was part of the British Empire IIRC and there was a local terrorism problem with tactics and morals not dissimilar to what's still going on there.

Anyway compared to Germany , Japan hasn't acknowledged that mistakes were made. Apart from not winning that is, "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage".

The Justice system has several aims. To Rehabilitate where possible, to isolate those who are a proven threat to society, and the punishment aspect. The latter may give solace to the affected but more importantly may act as a preventative measure. There is a large subset of society that range from chancers to psychopaths for whom the only deterrent to anti-sociality behaviour is the threat of being caught and punished.

Given the tens of millions that have died in wars during the last century and the one before it and the continued wars afterwards, any possible deterrent has to be tried. Unfortunately one thing that has worked historically has been to target the leaders, but by going through a sea of blood of the underlings.

Certainly if there is no fear of punishment for "following orders" then atrocities will continue to happen. "Don't blame me I just fly the drone where they tell me"


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35188135

Japan has been careful not to describe its contribution to the fund as compensation, describing it instead as a humanitarian gesture. Tokyo says all claims were settled in a 1965 treaty that restored diplomatic ties and included more than $800m in grants and loans to South Korea.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35188135

Japan and South Korea have agreed to settle the issue of "comfort women" forced to work in Japanese brothels during World War Two, in their first such deal since 1965.

Japan has apologised and will pay 1bn yen ($8.3m, £5.6m) - the amount South Korea asked for - to fund victims.

Wibbs

Harika wrote: »

So Germany wasn't paying anything in 2015 and 2014 to Israel, is this what you wanted to say?

*whoosh*. Wut? Why should they pay them a damned thing at this stage? How many Germans were adults back then who are still alive? How many who were even slightly involved back then who are still alive? A handful, if that. That they're dredging the bottom of the barrel here with this guy in some daft hair shirt guilt and scapegoatism says it all. There has to come a point where you remember, but you get over it. Then again when such memories have such political clout…

For me the only positive thing to come out of this is his final admission and descriptions of what he saw at the camp*. His and previous testimonies from the foot soldiers help to smother the Holocaust deniers in their sleep. The only "sentence" I'd hand down on him would be to record a video of all that he remembers. That would be useful, throwing him in gaol would be idiotic.



*not unlike how the Chinese dealt with those Japanese they found in their hands after the war. They executed a few alright, but mostly they debriefed them, wrote and recorded their experiences as witnesses and to the shock of many of the Japanese, sent them home.

HensVassal

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
What do people think about this guy here?

On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

Why?

Why was it more horrible than any other mass killing of an ethnic group?

Harika

Wibbs wrote: »

*whoosh*. Wut? Why should they pay them a damned thing at this stage? How many Germans were adults back then who are still alive? <-snip>.

If you look back the claim from another user here was

when does Germany have to stop paying anything to Israel?

So I asked what they paid recently. As he claims they do, I am really interested how much as to my knowledge Germany is not doing this anymore.
Basically it comes down to a latent antisemitism still lingering around or now coming back more and more that is mostly supported by following phrases
"Germany has paid enough to Israel and should stop doing that"
"Germany is not allowed to say anything as it is shut down always by pointing out the Holocaust"
While when you ask for examples, you never get an answer or very weird responses like "In 2003 the wife of the hair dresser of the major of St. Quentin said that"
The agenda of those, especially the far right in Germany and Austria is to belittle the Holocaust or blatantly deny it so it doesn't get in their way when starting with the same topics that let to the events of WW2. Luckily enough, in Germany not even Nazis want to be Nazis, as their reputation is so bad, that's why they are hiding at the AFD, Pegida or Identitären. So you might state that AFD and Pegida have nothing to do with Nazis as the party leaders say, so ask yourself then, why they have such a hard time to get rid of recently convicted Nazis in their party. For the Identitären, who got highly encouraged from the Freedom's party success, they already use the same tactics and symbolism of the SS, when the SS became alive in Austria and Germany in the 1930s.
So while it is true that the Holocaust has happened long ago and a lot has been done by Germany in the past, they also put a blind eye on a lot of people, as has already been pointed out here before. The trial we talk here about should have happened 50 years ago, but instead of letting it go, Germany decided to actively pursue on this part of their history, as painful as it is.