Dublin Marathon 2016 - Mentored Novices Thread

The Muppet

A slightly different question on the subject of adding Miles to the Boards plan.

Is there any benefit to adding a mile or two to the Tuesday and/or Thursday easy runs. The reason I ask is that I am used to running 4 to 5 miles both these days on my current plan and I was thinking of continuing with that though if it impacted my ability for the lsr's or just wans't beneficial I wouldn't do it.

chrislad

Being not a complete novice, I can't be given out to for accidentally running a 10:40 run at 9:38. I had no watch with me, and I was taking it what I thought was easy. Ah well.

The Muppet

Myles Splitz wrote: »

What is the rest of your week like?



Doesn't mean you can't add mileage but why not add 5-10 min to each of your weekly runs which will provide more strength without half of the risk.

Apologies Myles I cross posted asking a question about this . So It would be ok and beneficial to add a mile or two to the midweek easy runs if we wanted to?

Maximus Alexander

There's some really great stuff in this thread already.

Now I have a question that's been nagging at me for a couple of weeks: how does the training benefit of doing two runs in one day compare to doing one longer run?

More specifically, if I run 10k into work in the morning and then another 10k home about 9 hours later, in terms of training how does that compare to a single long run of 18-20k? Or is it completely different and more akin to doing two shorter runs on consecutive days?

Myles Splitz

The Muppet wrote: »

Apologies Myles I cross posted asking a question about this . So It would be ok and beneficial to add a mile or two to the midweek easy runs if we wanted to?

No harm in it. If you are not recovering from your long runs slow them down a bit. With your body being used to them at this stage should be fine as training should alwaqys be viewed as progressive (don't just go from 0-100 miles an hour but rather slowly add more volume or intensity bit by bit like the foundations to a house. It will take years to fully develop as a runner so doing a everything all in one go is gonna just leave you tired, under recovered and mentally burned out. by time the day come around.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

There's some really great stuff in this thread already.

Now I have a question that's been nagging at me for a couple of weeks: how does the training benefit of doing two runs in one day compare to doing one longer run?

More specifically, if I run 10k into work in the morning and then another 10k home about 9 hours later, in terms of training how does that compare to a single long run of 18-20k? Or is it completely different and more akin to doing two shorter runs on consecutive days?

Doubles won't make up for singles in terms of aerobic benefit however they have their uses in terms of reducing injury/illness.

I would say no harm doing two 30/40 min runs on an easy day but you can't replace a long run with two doubles you just won't get the same benefits. With many doing their first marathon (or in general if you are running less than 50 mpw) if possible I would say try to do these as singles as you will get more bang for your buck. If work etc dictates you need to however it can be a handy way to get decent mileage in (I generally run 4/5 mile doubles most days with work)

jameshayes

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

More specifically, if I run 10k into work in the morning and then another 10k home about 9 hours later, in terms of training how does that compare to a single long run of 18-20k? Or is it completely different and more akin to doing two shorter runs on consecutive days?

I know everyone is different but I did this myself in March, my run into work was 6k and later that evening 6k home - it took me days to feel right again.. now what I do is cycle to work, walk home, run into work the next day, cycle home.. handy enough

Extrasupervery

All of the advice RE longer LSRs on HH plans makes sense, thank you all for the input.

I suppose where I was coming from was fear of the wall...I entered my first 10 mile road race having run no farther than 10k's (maybe some ever so slightly longer training runs but not much) and at about 7 miles my body was like noooope, we don't do this, what are you at? And course I got through but I'd hate for that to happen at 20 miles in October. It probably will anyway, yeah? Yeah.

chrislad

jameshayes wrote: »

I know everyone is different but I did this myself in March, my run into work was 6k and later that evening 6k home - it took me days to feel right again.. now what I do is cycle to work, walk home, run into work the next day, cycle home.. handy enough

I actually did the same thing. I'd done about 8k in the morning, and 5k back, and the 5k was always a much bigger effort that usual. I found cycling the 5k to work, then running home, and running down in the morning and then cycling home, much like james, to aid recovery much better.

Maximus Alexander

jameshayes wrote: »

I know everyone is different but I did this myself in March, my run into work was 6k and later that evening 6k home - it took me days to feel right again.. now what I do is cycle to work, walk home, run into work the next day, cycle home.. handy enough

Aye, I've done it myself a few times already. 18-19k round trip and the return leg always feels considerably tougher. Weirdly, the heart rate tells a different story; always lower in the evening.

jameshayes

I've just been asked to take a spot on the Dublin staff relay tonight - one of the lads in work had to pull out so they need a 5th person - it looks like it is ran on grass.. anyone doing it?

carlaboi

Hello, just wondering what you guys think, I am running Dublin in October and am hoping to do it in under 4 hours. I am following the Asics sub 4 hr plan which is 16 weeks long so I will be starting proper on the 11th July. However, I have 10 days holidays planned in August, I can manage my mid week runs no problem but one of my long runs is 16 miles long and I think it is unlikely that I will manage this in the Spanish sun! So I am thinking of pushing the starting week back to the 4th July and therefore not doing much running while I am away effectively giving myself a break in the middle of my plan. This will be my third marathon, my last was in April last year which I ran in 4:01 so breaking the 4 hours is my goal. Any advice? Thanks.

The Muppet

Envious of all you runmuters, I'd love to do it but the road out to work is narrow with no footpath and very busy so its just too dangerous.

Myles Splitz

jameshayes wrote: »

I've just been asked to take a spot on the Dublin staff relay tonight - one of the lads in work had to pull out so they need a 5th person - it looks like it is ran on grass.. anyone doing it?

Oddily enough one of the guys on my team pulled out and a mystery replacement has been brought in could well see you out there

kittyclaws

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Oddily enough one of the guys on my team pulled out and a mystery replacement has been brought in could well see you out there

I've just been suckered into covering one of the guys too - our job entered 13 teams and 6 people pulled out today - bad form so close to the race.
I'm nursing a head cold and sore throat so I'm not expecting much - I do like the medal tho

babaracus

Hi nop

Just to check in. I am still ticking along ok for Waterford on 25th June. 19 miler this weekend. Have slowed my LSR to over 6 min per km as per advice. Have followed HH2 very closely thus far.

kin9pin

What about hills on our LSR? Am I right in thinking the "slow" should really be "easy" when it comes to hills?
For example, where I've tried to average 10:30 pace over the run I have actually slowed a little uphill and maybe hit 10:00 or quicker downhill. My effort/breathing has remained pretty constant so is this the best way to measure? When I do try to slow the downhill part I can feel the added pressure I'm putting on my knees and quads so is it best to just relax and go with it?

Apologies in advance for the mass of question marks!

Battery Kinzie

So, strengthening exercises? I really need to start incorporating these into my plan, but I read so much conflicting advice with regards to what to do and how often, and mostly when to do it, i.e the day of a workout or on a rest day or what.

nop98

babaracus wrote: »

Hi nop

Just to check in. I am still ticking along ok for Waterford on 25th June. 19 miler this weekend. Have slowed my LSR to over 6 min per km as per advice. Have followed HH2 very closely thus far.

Ouch, 19 milers. :eek:

Delighted to hear you're slowing down. I assume you're already practicing your in-flight feeding and hydration strategy? E.g. gels, and hiding a water bottle somewhere to freshen up? Do share your learnings! Getting this all experimented with (and nailed) is another important goal of the long runs. The mantra "nothing new on race-day" will be repeated a lot once the big day looms!

Good luck with the long run, and looking forward to the race report already

nop98

kin9pin wrote: »

What about hills on our LSR? Am I right in thinking the "slow" should really be "easy" when it comes to hills?
For example, where I've tried to average 10:30 pace over the run I have actually slowed a little uphill and maybe hit 10:00 or quicker downhill. My effort/breathing has remained pretty constant so is this the best way to measure? When I do try to slow the downhill part I can feel the added pressure I'm putting on my knees and quads so is it best to just relax and go with it?

Apologies in advance for the mass of question marks!

Hey kin9pin. Seems like you have it under control already - measure by effort, not by watch. Which means, slow down uphill (your breathing frequency can increase a little but not much), and relax on the downhill - don't lean back or break unnaturally, but don't hammer it down either. Just make sure that you slow right down again once you're on the flat again. I tried to run even LSR pace on hills and just gave up, it'll wreck your head.

Keep in mind that the DCM course is not particularly hilly. This means you don't have to do a lot of hill-work in your runs to prep. Hilly runs do stand to you, but they take longer to recover and there's the added chance of niggles. I like a bit of hills in my runs, but DG told me to cut them out towards the end.

nop98

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

So, strengthening exercises? I really need to start incorporating these into my plan, but I read so much conflicting advice with regards to what to do and how often, and mostly when to do it, i.e the day of a workout or on a rest day or what.

So Battery - the message here is pretty consistent, you should include one day of cross-training in your weekly routine. This has to be at easy / gentle effort, so don't go all-out in a circuits or kettlebell class. It's an easy day, and as Myles says, "easy days easy". This, by the way, is particularly true for once the program starts - you can take a bit more cross leeway until then.

I would recommend Pilates. It's great for strengthening the core (back, stomach muscles, glutes, legs), it's good for stretching, you're not crippled for a few days after, and it teaches you exercises you could do at home yourself afterwards. But that's a personal opinion - swimming, cycling, yoga, all good.

nop98

tipping wrote: »

Just a quick update on the last few weeks as I must get out of last years habit of just lurking here..

Week 2/5/16 - 8/5/16
6 Runs
34 Miles
2 Races, One good, One bad
2 recovery
2 easy
Figured out that 2 races in 3 days is just too much for me, although couldn't resist with the lack of 10k races on the calendar

Week 9/5/16 - 15/5/16
5 Runs
41.5 Miles
2 Easy
1 Progression
1 Steady (Should have been easy but sped up due to time constraints)
1 LSR (15.5 Miles)

Bit of a niggle in the ball of my foot tonight after club session which I haven't figured out if it's just adaptation (I feel like I'm running more on my toes recently), or the new runners, or all the road running so going to back off for a few days, try to run on grass, use the alternative runners and take a much easier week with less running at lower intensity.

tailgunner wrote: »

I'm falling into the same trap I think, so here's a quick update from me too.

2nd-8th May
A good week - ran 28 miles or so over 5 runs, including a decent interval session, a progression run, and a 10 mile long run at the weekend.

9th-15th May
Pretty poor in terms of mileage (barely managed 13), but I ran a 5k PB on Saturday, so was very pleased with that.

16th May
I kicked off marathon training for Berlin with a session last night - half mile reps at half marathon pace. Haven't done a long-interval session like that before - really enjoyed it.

I have an MP session, an 11 mile long run and a couple of recovery runs left for this week. Aiming to hit around 31 miles in total.

Hey folks - forgot to respond to these: I am *really liking* the weekly updates.. Maybe something for all to consider? It's great to document your own efforts, and it is very inspiring to read all the others, too. Maybe we'll organize a "weekly report of the week"-post competition Firedance can pick the first one!

Battery Kinzie

nop98 wrote: »

So Battery - the message here is pretty consistent, you should include one day of cross-training in your weekly routine. This has to be at easy / gentle effort, so don't go all-out in a circuits or kettlebell class. It's an easy day, and as Myles says, "easy days easy". This, by the way, is particularly true for once the program starts - you can take a bit more cross leeway until then.

I would recommend Pilates. It's great for strengthening the core (back, stomach muscles, glutes, legs), it's good for stretching, you're not crippled for a few days after, and it teaches you exercises you could do at home yourself afterwards. But that's a personal opinion - swimming, cycling, yoga, all good.

Cheers nop! I was talking more like the Myrtle routine and core type exercises to help stay injury free which would be done three/four times a week. I don't plan on going to the gym or requiring a lot of equipment, I was thinking of squats, pushups, etc.

I think I'll give Pilates a go though, have heard good things about it and it's something I can do myself at home. Any pointers or is it hard to go far wrong;)?

Firedance

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Cheers nop! I was talking more like the Myrtle routine and core type exercises to help stay injury free which would be done three/four times a week. I don't plan on going to the gym or requiring a lot of equipment, I was thinking of squats, pushups, etc.

I think I'll give Pilates a go though, have heard good things about it and it's something I can do myself at home. Any pointers or is it hard to go far wrong;)?

Myrtle can be done once a week (I wouldn't do it 3-4 times), I echo what nop says, do your cross (which includes strength) once a week but keep it easy and simple. Build up to it now but gently - don't start new regimes on top of your marathon training the week the plan starts. 'Now is the time' to slowly introduce these.

On Pilates I think I recommend you get instruction first before doing a routine at home, it's important to ensure you're engaging the right muscles.

spaceylou

A question about heart rate...how rested should your resting heart rate be? Like should I take it first thing in the morning or is it okay after I've been sitting for a while?

Firedance

spaceylou wrote: »

A question about heart rate...how rested should your resting heart rate be? Like should I take it first thing in the morning or is it okay after I've been sitting for a while?

The most accurate reading is on waking in the morning before you put a foot on the ground, that's the true 'resting' heart rate. If you take it during the day at work desk etc it's more 'general' than resting.

spaceylou

Firedance wrote: »

The most accurate reading is on waking in the morning before you put a foot on the ground, that's the true 'resting' heart rate. If you take it during the day at work desk etc it's more 'general' than resting.

Cool... Now to find a watch or clock with a second hand...

Extrasupervery

spaceylou wrote: »

Cool... Now to find a watch or clock with a second hand...

Or just a phone with a basic stopwatch feature.

babaracus

nop98 wrote: »

Ouch, 19 milers. :eek:

Delighted to hear you're slowing down. I assume you're already practicing your in-flight feeding and hydration strategy? E.g. gels, and hiding a water bottle somewhere to freshen up? Do share your learnings! Getting this all experimented with (and nailed) is another important goal of the long runs. The mantra "nothing new on race-day" will be repeated a lot once the big day looms!

Good luck with the long run, and looking forward to the race report already

Thanks nop.

In flight feeding practice is well underway! I drive out before I run and leave a cache of water/isotonic drink hidden at 2 points and carry some gels. I do the LSRs early in the morning, suits me as I am a morning person. I have a breakfast of Weetabix, brown bread, coffee and water about 1.5 to 2 hours before departure. For gels I am using High 5 Isogels with caffeine, citrus flavoured. I find the Isogels more liquidy and they go down easier than the very very gloopy normal gels. I would also get through 500ml of Lucozade sport. About 150 ml 10 mins before set off and then the rest from my cached supplies. And of course water. It is working well so far and no stomach issues at all thankfully.

I will check in again before the big day.

spaceylou

Extrasupervery wrote: »

Or just a phone with a basic stopwatch feature.

Don't like leaving phone on at night and all the notifications on turn on are likely to wake OH, just cause I get up super early doesn't mean he has to... All good though, found a watch with second hand I'd forgotten about

jameshayes

I did the Dublin Staff Relay last night and learned a valuable lesson - I need to run more hills.. holy christ they were a killer, my legs dont normally get fatigued when I run but last night they were burning. Run more hills.