Dublin Marathon 2016 - Mentored Novices Thread

TFBubendorfer

scotindublin wrote: »

I have often wondered about the benefits of protein shakes and supplements.

So far on my longer runs I have survived of Fruit Patsilles and Wine Gums! Like to have a nice pint of chocolate milk when finished though!

Certainly open to advise on that sort of thing.

For a couple of years I used to take a whey protein drink after each long run; mostly because someone recommended that to me.

Protein is necessary for muscle repair and a protein shake makes it very easy to ensure that there will be protein available for the body.

Since then I've gradually gone off that. I've taken one single drink of whey protein in the last 2 months, and that was when I was feeling rather knackered after a fairly hard long run and just wanted a quick fix.

Natural, unprocessed food will always trump highly processed food, and if you take a lot of protein shakes it means you're inevitably missing out on "real food". It is absolutely not necessary to take supplement when training for a marathon, in fact it could very easily be counter-productive.

Pink11

Know i'm completely late to the party but best wishes to everyone doing the marathon for the first time this year.

I was one of Dubsgal's students last year. This thread is unbelievable support and will keep you going through downer days. i would have given up on a few occasions if it wasn't for this help.

I enjoyed last year so much. Dubsgal was strategically positioned at the start of a tough hill on the day. I'll never forget the massive hug I got from her and I still remember her telling me to 'get up that hill!!!' - words can't describe how much it spurred me on.

Enjoy every minute of it. I took the training a bit too seriously and was obsessed with a time but please, please forget about all that. Do what you can, do it comfortably and ENJOY IT. it's only AFTER - i totally understand and agree with it.

I've had some injuries - recovering slowly with my wonderful physio. Back up to 7 miles at the moment. Signed up to the race series & Dublin Marathon 2016 yesterday yikes! (except Fingal 10k).

Even though I'm technically a graduate I'm totally spying on this. I'm sure I'll need a kick up the arse as the training ranks up too!

I can't advise people enough to do strength training outside of running too - to avoid injury!

Good luck everyone xxx

nop98

ToriV wrote: »

So finally got around to this - had crap wifi to get sorted!

So a bit about me! I started running last year having been talked into running the WMM or charity. I was fairly fit with lots of boxercise, TRX and spinning but never ran. In fact, i hated even the idea of it. Started training and about 5 weeks into a couch to 10k plan, something happened! i started to love it, and it has been a love affair ever since. Now I learned the lessons the hard way - running too much (bad),running too fast (bad), racing my training (bad) and that running means running slooooooooow and then some (V bad). I have cut these out now and have thankfully been injury free (touch wood).


Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Dont race much, but took part in local fundraising 5k and 10 ks.
PB 5k 26:08
PB 10K 53:45

Trained for a HM that I couldnt take part in, but ran the distance 21k in 2:08.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)

No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
4 days running - 1 short speed session, 1 medium easy, 1 short easy and 1 long slow run. Cross train twice a week - TRX and strenght training focusing on core and glutes.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

I just want to finish. Its such an epic achievement and I have nothing but respect for the distance and those that complete it.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? 4 days is fine and I was looking at the HHN1 as this time i just want to get around, and wantto still run!
Why are you running this marathon? I want to challenge myself and i love to run.

Looking forwarad to being part of this and thanks so much to the mentors! All advice will be gratefully accepted!

Hello ToriV, welcome to the thread, sorry it took so long to respond.

I am glad to hear you've already learned a few truths about how to properly train (the hard way, it seems ) but you seem to be injury-free at the moment?

I think HHN1 is fine for you, it will allow you to slowly build up your mileage and you can easily fit in your cross training - core/glutes is an excellent area to focus on (but you probably won't have time or energy for two days ), see how you get on. Remember that that is meant to be an easy day.

Not much feedback for the time being - you should consider planning the 5M on June 12 or an equivalent race in June before the training plans start. Additionally, don't wait with slowly increasing your weekly mileage. The further you can get ahead of the curve, the better (the plan will eventually catch up!).

The very best of luck!

TFBubendorfer

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

For a couple of years I used to take a whey protein drink after each long run; mostly because someone recommended that to me.

Protein is necessary for muscle repair and a protein shake makes it very easy to ensure that there will be protein available for the body.

Since then I've gradually gone off that. I've taken one single drink of whey protein in the last 2 months, and that was when I was feeling rather knackered after a fairly hard long run and just wanted a quick fix.

Natural, unprocessed food will always trump highly processed food, and if you take a lot of protein shakes it means you're inevitably missing out on "real food". It is absolutely not necessary to take supplement when training for a marathon, in fact it could very easily be counter-productive.

I'm not sure I'm following this. Why is it counter-productive?

chrislad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm following this. Why is it counter-productive?

I'd tend to agree. I know a sub 2:30 marathoner who has a shake every morning!

kabuxa

Hi I have been reading but not updating anything lately. I had a couple of crazy weeks and I think they will start to settle...
I feel tired in the evenings and I really don't see how I will ever be able to get to marathon distance.... but I said the same 2 years ago when I did the first half and I did it, so I will do it ;o))) I just need 'time' to organise myself ;o)

So far, until half Marathon I never had any supplements... Berocca before the race and water. Maybe some jellies but that's it. I know it was mentioned that in some weeks we will talk about gels etc... so I will wait for that...

After a run I 'try' to have something like protein bar, or chicken or something, but usually I am not hungry... just a bite.
Now I see about the sub 2:30 M has a share every morning... Morning instead of after race?
Not questioning, just wondering, as I don't have a clue. The rest of my family are gym goers and they do take shakes for after the gym.. .they say I should not take as they will make me 'bulkier' and that is the LAST thing I need.

Any suggestions... .reasons..... comments? Thanks!!

chrislad

kabuxa wrote: »

Hi I have been reading but not updating anything lately. I had a couple of crazy weeks and I think they will start to settle...
I feel tired in the evenings and I really don't see how I will ever be able to get to marathon distance.... but I said the same 2 years ago when I did the first half and I did it, so I will do it ;o))) I just need 'time' to organise myself ;o)

So far, until half Marathon I never had any supplements... Berocca before the race and water. Maybe some jellies but that's it. I know it was mentioned that in some weeks we will talk about gels etc... so I will wait for that...

After a run I 'try' to have something like protein bar, or chicken or something, but usually I am not hungry... just a bite.
Now I see about the sub 2:30 M has a share every morning... Morning instead of after race?
Not questioning, just wondering, as I don't have a clue. The rest of my family are gym goers and they do take shakes for after the gym.. .they say I should not take as they will make me 'bulkier' and that is the LAST thing I need.

Any suggestions... .reasons..... comments? Thanks!!

Protein shakes aren't for bulk, they're for muscle repair. I aim to get about 120g of protein a day in my diet. Only about 25 of this comes from supplements IF I use it on a training day. I mainly have a lot of chicken and fish in my diet.

SausageDogDave

chrislad wrote: »

I'd tend to agree. I know a sub 2:30 marathoner who has a shake every morning!

Ha I'm sure that 2:30 guy does a lot of things:D

I think the point TBF was making was that nothing really beats a good, balanced diet. Shakes can be counter-productive if you're using them as a substitute for good natural food (too much protein isn't good either).

kabuxa wrote:

Any suggestions... .reasons..... comments? Thanks!!

For now, and at least until the millage starts building up I wouldn't sweat it. Main thing should be just building up the running I think (ie the main thing).

In the meantime, I'd be more interested in trying figure out the best way to fuel yourself before a long run. For example, how long before the run should you eat and what should you eat? Bit of porridge and brown bread and jam works ok for me maybe 2.5 hours before. It mightn't work for some though..

Gillo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm following this. Why is it counter-productive?

It possibly depends on the type of protein supplement you are taking. Firstly bare in mind that any supplement shouldn't replace part of a healthy diet but should act as a "top-up" to a healthy balanced diet; the clue is in the name "supplement". For sport's like running a protein supplement for "lean muscle mass" would be best, the other type of protein supplement is a "mass gainer" this will also tend to carry a lot of carbs to add weight or bulk and is ideal for someone looking to bulk up, e.g. a boxer or rugby player (depending on the position they play) who require's a lot of mass. Thats a very simple explanation!

I'd always take protein after a weights session in the gym, but as for running only after a very long run when running (I'm still not convinced it makes a massive difference).
Also consider that the supplement market is a mine field, have a quick look in the health & fitness forum I know that used to have endless debate's over which brand is best. I know which particular products worked best for me and I stick with them. As for the 2:30 runner, lets be honest they are running at a completely different level, one of the mantra's from this thread last year was; have a goal time in mind but concentrate on getting to the finish line, the time is secondary to that.

My own opinion (and there are more knowledgable posters here), is not to bother; for long runs some gels and electrolytes are the most you should need. If you do decide to use protein, go to a dedicated supplements store, explain what you are doing and ask what they'd recommend.

chrislad

SausageDogDave wrote: »

I think the point TBF was making was that nothing really beats a good, balanced diet. Shakes can be counter-productive if you're using them as a substitute for good natural food (too much protein isn't good either).

]

Definitely. I use an app, MyFitnessPal, to monitor my levels of carbs/protein etc. Works for me!

kabuxa

For now, and at least until the millage starts building up I wouldn't sweat it. Main thing should be just building up the running I think (ie the main thing).

In the meantime, I'd be more interested in trying figure out the best way to fuel yourself before a long run. For example, how long before the run should you eat and what should you eat? Bit of porridge and brown bread and jam works ok for me maybe 2.5 hours before. It mightn't work for some though..[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, I fully agree... from next week I will start building mileage.... there has been so many races lately that kind of threw everything away from plan but soon back on track.

I do have porridge & fruit in the morning... but here is where I have a problem ;o) If we usually go running at 8.30am.... there is no way I will get up 2.5 hours before to have breakfast. ;o) Seriously.... I have heard this before the 2 hour, 2 and a half before running.... is it really that important... can 1 hour, 1.5h do? Thanks!

SausageDogDave

kabuxa wrote: »

I have heard this before the 2 hour, 2 and a half before running.... is it really that important... can 1 hour, 1.5h do? Thanks!

Well, the risk is that you'd feel iky. Some would feel iky if they ate 3 hours before a run. Now's the time to try it and see how you go. You'll figure out what works for you soon enough

SausageDogDave

chrislad wrote: »

I use an app, MyFitnessPal, to monitor my levels of carbs/protein etc. Works for me!

Nice. I like apps. Sounds better than Noom, which just counts calories...

Antwerp

I do have porridge & fruit in the morning... but here is where I have a problem ;o) If we usually go running at 8.30am.... there is no way I will get up 2.5 hours before to have breakfast. ;o) Seriously.... I have heard this before the 2 hour, 2 and a half before running.... is it really that important... can 1 hour, 1.5h do? Thanks![/QUOTE]

Hi, no expert here just a novice but I tend to have porridge with dried fruit 1hr before a morning run however if it's a evening run, I just ensure to have a proper meal at lunch (probably 4 hours before the run) and some fruit an hour before that evening run. Suppose now is the time to test out what works for you. although I have been told that gels and protein shakes are imperative for LSRs once you hit 15miles... Hopefully the experienced runners can enlighten us.

anais

Was on another board re feeling exhausted and they suggested more sleep (duh) and a protein shake after a lsr which I have found makes a massive difference to me anyway
My question is this....electrolytes have been mentioned, even a particular brand, do people take these regularly? I took the kids diorolyte after a half marathon recently and found it helped with recovery but I wonder is there a better solution out there? I took that as a friend on charity work on Africa was told to sip on it during the day to prevent dehydration which is something I struggle with. Tia

Kennyg71

Antwerp wrote: »

I do have porridge & fruit in the morning... but here is where I have a problem ;o) If we usually go running at 8.30am.... there is no way I will get up 2.5 hours before to have breakfast. ;o) Seriously.... I have heard this before the 2 hour, 2 and a half before running.... is it really that important... can 1 hour, 1.5h do? Thanks!

Hi, no expert here just a novice but I tend to have porridge with dried fruit 1hr before a morning run however if it's a evening run, I just ensure to have a proper meal at lunch (probably 4 hours before the run) and some fruit an hour before that evening run. Suppose now is the time to test out what works for you. although I have been told that gels and protein shakes are imperative for LSRs once you hit 15miles... Hopefully the experienced runners can enlighten us.[/QUOTE]


Scrambled egg, slice of ham or chicken. Cottage cheese and bit of ballymaloe
relish in bagel job done after LR and glass milk. Only takes 10 mins to get
ready. Bag of whole mixed nuts good to snack on as well. Used to have banana
and bowel porridge about half hour before LSR as your not moving to fast
it never did me any harm, but it's an individual thing.

Mrs Mc

Well I can only tell you what I did during marathon training last year I did my long runs Sunday morning got up 2 hours before I went out had a berroca boost porridge with blueberries and raspberries and a cuppa tea not all together obviously !!! then I'd stretch for 20 mins while watching xpose catching up on my autumn winter fashion tips !!! Then head out for the run. It was literally the same thing every Sunday. I did try coffee early in the programme but that didnt agree with me so changed to tea. It meant on the morning of DCM I had the exact same routine as long run day you know what works you know how your body reacts and it's just what works for you you've the next number of weeks to see what works for you

lenny palmer

The Muppet wrote: »

This might be of help to you
https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216917757-Moving-your-activity-history-from-MapMyRun-to-Strava

Thanks. I've had a look and can't seem to work it out. I think you need to be on the MVP package. I have found fitnesssyncer. So going to try this to see if it works.

Mrs Mc

anais wrote: »

Was on another board re feeling exhausted and they suggested more sleep (duh) and a protein shake after a lsr which I have found makes a massive difference to me anyway
My question is this....electrolytes have been mentioned, even a particular brand, do people take these regularly? I took the kids diorolyte after a half marathon recently and found it helped with recovery but I wonder is there a better solution out there? I took that as a friend on charity work on Africa was told to sip on it during the day to prevent dehydration which is something I struggle with. Tia

I used the nuun tablets dissolved in water when the distances started to increase used this during DCM too. I was really thirsty one week after running and no matter how much water I drank it wasn't making me feel any better. Hubby made me take some sea salt just a small amount and I felt so much better. Started taking the nunn tablets after than then.

spaceylou

Looking at the plan, it's really only the mid-week medium run and the lsr at weekends that I think I'll need to worry about eating before. At the moment I usually run first thing and during the week would happily do up to about 8k on 'empty' but then I tend to eat dinner late enough in the evening so maybe that makes a difference.

At weekends for longer runs I do like MrsMac suggests and get up about 1.5 - 2 hours early for porridge and coffee.

This Fat Girl Runs

kabuxa wrote: »

I do have porridge & fruit in the morning... but here is where I have a problem ;o) If we usually go running at 8.30am.... there is no way I will get up 2.5 hours before to have breakfast. ;o) Seriously.... I have heard this before the 2 hour, 2 and a half before running.... is it really that important... can 1 hour, 1.5h do? Thanks!

You'll know yourself if an hour/hour & half is enough but there's no harm in getting up early, eating, then going back to bed. I did this on my Sunday LSR's during last year's marathon training. Even if I didn't get back to sleep, I was still resting. I also made sure to get to bed early the night before. It wasn't the easiest to get up that early but the benefits outweighed the hardship.

Mrs Mc wrote: »

Well I can only tell you what I did during marathon training last year I did my long runs Sunday morning got up 2 hours before I went out had a berroca boost porridge with blueberries and raspberries and a cuppa tea not all together obviously !!! then I'd stretch for 20 mins while watching xpose catching up on my autumn winter fashion tips !!! Then head out for the run. It was literally the same thing every Sunday. I did try coffee early in the programme but that didnt agree with me so changed to tea. It meant on the morning of DCM I had the exact same routine as long run day you know what works you know how your body reacts and it's just what works for you you've the next number of weeks to see what works for you

+1 to this. The sooner you settle into a routine the more prepared you'll be on marathon day. Your mind and body will be not only be trained to run, it will be trained to be up, fueled and prepped too. The pre-race prep is important too and should be practiced to perfection. As you'll hear your mentors telling you...now is the time!

All or nothing

Hi guys,

I have been doing exams up to last week so I was catching up on the thread during the week when I finally had some free time.

I was thinking about doing DCM 2015 but thought another years running would serve me better. So here I am, I had a look at the 2015 thread at the time. I picked up lots of great advice from that which I have put into practice since.

Been running properly since summer 2014. Started off doing a few 10km races then did a few 10 mile races in Jan and March 2015.
Cork City half marathon was my first half this time last year. I then did Charleville half in Sept last year. I am training at the moment for the Cork half which is on 6th June.

Two weeks before the Cork half last year while doing a few strides at the end of an easy run, I pulled my groin muscle. I went to a physio at the time and she got me to the start line. I then went to a different physio later in 2015 and he diagnosed my issue as a hip impingement. I then took some time off running from October- Jan 16 to concentrate on strengthening exercises daily to sort my hip problem. I was also doing exams in January so didn't really have time for work,study, running and the strengthening exercises. Thankfully I think its all sorted now.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

I have done a number of races mostly last year and 2014. 5km PB 22:30 (July 2015), 5 Mile PB 37:30 ( April 2015), 10 Mile PB 84 (April 2016,) Half Marathon PB 1:59 (September 2015)

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)

No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

Since I have gone back running properly at the end of January this year I have been running 4-5 days a week normally around 20-25 miles a week. If I had kept up the running after the half I did in September last year I would have ran over 1000 miles last year.

I usually do run specific strength training twice a week, prescribed from my physio: Lunges, single leg squats, single leg bridge, calf raises etc.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

As can be seen from the drop off in my times as the distance goes up endurance is my main weakness so Ill see how the training is going before I set a target time. Id like to finish my 1st marathon having ran the whole way around. I think I am capable of maybe 4:15-4:20, but Im not going to worry about times right now. Getting to the start line injury free will be more important for me.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

5 days a week running should be no problem for me. I will keep up the exercises the physio has me doing 2 days a week then.
I like the look of the boards plan, Its printed off now and stuck on the fridge, ready to go.

Why are you running this marathon?

I suppose its the natural progression after a few half marathons. Looking forward to the challenge.

jake1970

While training for DCM last year I would have a bagel and jam 1 hour before the morning runs. On the evening runs I would have a light lunch which would be about 3 hours before my run and then a banana 15 mins before I run. This routine worked very well for me but it is very much an individual thing and you really have to work out what works for you and now is the time to do this.

spaceylou

jake1970 wrote: »

... now is the time to do this.

I feel this is becoming a reoccurring theme i better pay attention to!!

Enjoy your weekend runs all

nop98

Many questions about nutrition in the past few days, and as usual, the answer is that there is no one-size-fits-all. By the way, I am absolutely no expert in this area.

A couple of thoughts - these are my personal opinions, I am sure there are many more knowledgeable folks out there eager to jump in. :rolleyes:

• I am very much of the "just eat your greens and you'll be fine" school, as advocated by TFB and others. Simply improving your diet slightly but structurally will reap massive benefits. For me, the mainstay was plenty of fresh fruit and muesli in the mornings, wholemeal breads, etc. When the mileage crept up, chicken-wraps for lunch (can't stand the sight of them now, actually). Just a sensible approach: don't eat crap. I am absolutely no poster-boy as health-nut and found I didn't need to be, either.
• Very little artificial stuff for me, the odd vitamin/omega-3 supplement, but that's it. I even gave away the protein-shaker that we got after the FD10 in August.
• What works for a sub 2h30 marathoner might not necessary be recommended practice for first-time marathoners. On that note, TFB is an accomplished ultra-runner whose opinion I value tremendously. If he can make do without much artificial stuff, so can we.
• As Mrs Mc, TFGR, and others remark, getting your pre-run feeding strategy right is an important part of your LSRs. It's a huge advantage doing your LSRs early in the morning as DCM itself will kick-off at 9am - meaning you can prepare for the big day like you've been preparing for LSRs for months. I appreciate this is not always possible, but consider it part of the training and try to fit it in. A proper meal the evening before, and up (sometimes ridiculously) early to prepare are just going to be part of the journey.
• Bagels or toast, muesli and banana as pre-LSR feed (an hour before is fine - as KennyG points out). The going-back-to-bed part of it didn't work for me, I am not that disciplined!
• Gels and water/sport-drink for during the runs - as discussed before, this needs practice. You want to get the eating routine (a) the night before, (b) the morning of the run, and (c) during the race practiced many many times.
• Make sure to prepare for after your LSR. If you come home after 3 hours running, you'll be delighted having a snack and drink ready, especially if you're coming home to an empty house.

Happy running this weekend!

ToriV

nop98 wrote: »

Hello ToriV, welcome to the thread, sorry it took so long to respond.

I am glad to hear you've already learned a few truths about how to properly train (the hard way, it seems ) but you seem to be injury-free at the moment?

I think HHN1 is fine for you, it will allow you to slowly build up your mileage and you can easily fit in your cross training - core/glutes is an excellent area to focus on (but you probably won't have time or energy for two days ), see how you get on. Remember that that is meant to be an easy day.

Not much feedback for the time being - you should consider planning the 5M on June 12 or an equivalent race in June before the training plans start. Additionally, don't wait with slowly increasing your weekly mileage. The further you can get ahead of the curve, the better (the plan will eventually catch up!).

The very best of luck!

Thanks! Yes learned the hard way but really careful now so thankfully have been injury free (touch wood). Agree about the cross training, really trying to get my core strenght back after 2 caesareans but it's going in the right direction. I have a question about training days - I usually run 4 days a week one day on, next day off running but I see the programme has consecutive days. Is it important to do this or does it make a difference?? Thanks☺

nop98

ToriV wrote: »

Thanks! Yes learned the hard way but really careful now so thankfully have been injury free (touch wood). Agree about the cross training, really trying to get my core strenght back after 2 caesareans but it's going in the right direction. I have a question about training days - I usually run 4 days a week one day on, next day off running but I see the programme has consecutive days. Is it important to do this or does it make a difference?? Thanks☺

Hey - organize the week the way it suits you, but make sure to keep the harder days (e.g. the LSR and the mid-week mid-long run) well separate, and ideally on the same days (roughly) every week.

Antwerp

Thanks for all the advise, Nop98 & co.

Beautiful day out there must be 12degrees (tis an Irish heatwave lol. )......just completed my quick run and off to get provisions now for my Long Run tomorrow morning. Happy running everyone!

Gillo

Try keeping to the plan ToriV, but the reality is a lot of people have to chop and change, as Nop98 said keep an eye on the long runs (a rest day afterwards is really important). I work five days out of seven a week but it can be any five days so I was constantly changing going the plan and it still worked. As soon as I had my hours for the following week, I'd look at the runs I had to do and I'd fit them in. It wasn't 100% ideal but it did work.
Although I did find because I was moving about runs, it was easy to skip a run and say I'll do it later in the week, be careful of not falling into that trap as one you start doing it, it's an easy (bad) habit to get into.

jameshayes

First long slow run today. Went out too fast.. next time i'll go slower.

It didnt feel too bad when I was running, i felt I could hold a conversation easy but it was 30sec's a KM quicker than my prescribed LSR pace

https://www.strava.com/activities/590524431

Edit; Strava is saying I killed 1300 calories in that run.. There is no way in hell I'll be able to eat them back today along with my standard 2000.. Fug. I can't really afford to lose weight - I don't carry a lot of it around with me!