Boards is becoming a Ghost Town

Chorus_suck

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Lurkio

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Might be this?

Yep. I disagreed with him on other matters but he's not wrong there. 'We can't afford them' could be called a right wing argument, and it can be argued. 'They're all rapists and misogynists' is extremist and can't.

Dav

Your questions more or less amounted to telling me I was lying to you (I wasn't) and criticism of my colleague, who, as I already said, has a massive lot on her plate as is and so her role doesn't normally extend to this side of the job. You have taken my attempts to figure all this out whilst explaining our side of the discussion and have responded with insults and insinuations and so why on earth would I spend my time answering a person who seems to want little more than a pound of flesh? Whatever I say to you will never be good enough, and since I only have so many hours in the day, I figured I'd be better off getting some of these problems dealt with.

Chorus_suck

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ibarelycare

Dav you said in your last post that you had more to address on this thread.

When's the last time any posts have been addressed in the "What is wrong with the site?" thread either?

Communication is shocking on the site, and the staff/owners don't give a crap how much it's frustrating people.

intheclouds

The two biggest issues that have come out of this thread are people complaining about moderation and people complaining about the whole site being hidden under a 4 category menu.

The latter hasnt even been hinted at being addressed.

I suspect (put your tinfoil hats on now please) that there is no new site at all, and that these shams they give us to look at periodically are just a way of generating more content and traffic with all the complaints about them.

Its all about traffic, this thread is generating plenty of it - but if they addressed any of the points raised then we'd stop complaining.

Chorus_suck

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Lovely Bloke

intheclouds wrote: »

The two biggest issues that have come out of this thread are people complaining about moderation and people complaining about the whole site being hidden under a 4 category menu.

The latter hasnt even been hinted at being addressed.

I suspect (put your tinfoil hats on now please) that there is no new site at all, and that these shams they give us to look at periodically are just a way of generating more content and traffic with all the complaints about them.

Its all about traffic, this thread is generating plenty of it - but if they addressed any of the points raised then we'd stop complaining.

I've had my own thoughts along similar lines for a while now, and did let them be known when I was a mod myself (many, many moons ago).

I think that certain low-level trolls are also tolerated because they skirt the rules in such a way as to get people "outraged" and encouraging posts and content creation.

The only real way to guarantee people posting online is to get them annoyed. See the number of negative vs positive reviews on sites like TripAdvisor - nobody "creates content" if they are satisfied with a service. Similarly, nobody posts "+1" or "I agree" type posts anymore, especially since the introduction of the Thanks button. More and more, the main spark of discussion on the bigger forums are people posting opinions that go against the grain, just to get a rise.

Dav

I look at repeating myself to the *very* small number of people here who will deliberately misinterpret what I say as an inconvenience, yes. I just don't have the time for it. Most of the people here are here to help, I'm sorry you're not getting helped more quickly, but there are no quick solutions to most of the issues we're talking about on this thread.

I said on the other thread I'd be back to it in 2 weeks ibc, that's the cycle time for the dev work we've got going on. I'll have an update on Friday.

For this thread, as you may have spotted earlier Myrddin has kindly posted some of the work we've been doing to address some of what was raised here. I'm trying to come back with complete answers/suggestions for other problems raised rather than piece-meal solution that will only make things worse. I can't imagine my coming to this thread to say "I don't have a solution yet" every day is going to help anything.

Into The Blue

Myrddin wrote: »

1) Absent AFK Mods - So far, thirteen absent mods have been demodded, and discussions are happening with Cmods to replace those demodded with more active, invested users of the affected forums. It can take time to identify the right replacement candidates, and even then not everyone says yes to becoming a mod, so bear with us on this. We will keep an ongoing eye on inactive mods also.

Will Beruthiel and Bonkey be put on Death Row? One post between them in 2yrs+ :P

smash

While I understand the frustration of the users, because I am one, I'm also getting just a little but uncomfortable with the amount of targeting of the dev team. They have a job to do, and it's not to entertain us. You could say that boards as a company might owe us because we create the content but the dev team themselves don't really owe us anything. Let alone explanations for business decisions. Would people be so quick to be continuously writing to zuckerberg if FB launched new online ads? I doubt it.

As the weeks go by I find myself becoming less and less interested in all this bickering and as a result, less interested in boards as an entity.

I feel that I've given enough time over the years and evidently the penny dropped that there's really no point in being so precious about it all. It could be simplified to suggest that we're users of a service, but we're more than that because we are the product that the service offers. The userbase, is the product. If the company want to rebrand the packaging then so be it. If you don't like it then just stop being the product.

DeadHand

Dav wrote: »

It's not even close to what I said, but never let the truth get in the way of a good rant

How is this-

Right Wing opinion has become dangerously extremist because the rest of the world has become a more tolerant place.

- not openly stating right wing opinion is dangerous?

Incredible that you'd present evidence that I'm telling the truth and then turn around and imply I'm a liar.

Dyr

DeadHand wrote: »

How is this-



- not openly stating right wing opinion is dangerous?

Incredible that you'd present evidence that I'm telling the truth and then turn around and imply I'm a liar.

That depends, if you're explaining how it isn't to someone with the reading comprehension of an 8 year old it might be tricky. Other than that it's self explanatory

Legal Action

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And there are posters who'll gang up and shut down any liberal opinion under the guise of "PC gone mad".

Just been banned from AH for posting a video of a migrant bragging about the gang rape of German girl. Good job mods. Keep up the censorship and watch the site die.

gallag

Legal Action wrote: »

Just been banned from AH for posting a video of a migrant bragging about the gang rape of German girl. Good job mods. Keep up the censorship and watch the site die.

That's just your dangerous right wing opinion, if you were more liberal something something......

DeadHand

Legal Action wrote: »

Just been banned from AH for posting a video of a migrant bragging about the gang rape of German girl. Good job mods. Keep up the censorship and watch the site die.

Had you posted a video of far right extremists bragging about the gang rape of a migrant they'd have made you a mod.

Not that such videos exist- the balance of rape and violence is firmly one way in modern Europe.

BMMachine

I personally don't mind the search functions on the site that much, maybe a few less clicks though The new front end is pretty horrible though - please dont force people to use it.
I also think that the site tends to become about moderators and moderation far too much though. In some forums (soccer namely) the moderation is crazy - very obvious trolls get away with trolling all the time and the moderators tend to jump through hoops to not ban them but then they are very quick to card people who call out someone who is trolling. It seems quite cliquey and very "who you know" in regards to how its moderated. On other forums I don't really notice too much which I suppose is a good thing but I do visit the prison forum often enough (can be a laugh) but got me thinking, do the admins there enjoy trolling banned users? I think they do and that to me is very small time and that small time attitude could leak downwards. I would take off the thing where it says what forums someone moderates on the side. Its quite small time, you moderate a forum - who cares? But its almost treated as a badge of respect where this person is "better" than non-mods (which both the mod and others react to in different ways). Make the site less about moderation and rank and more about the people. The best moderation is not seen or heard but instead on this site its very loud and very clear which to me creates an atmosphere of hostility which you can see all the way through this thread.

Aside from those issues I think the site is grand.

uck51js9zml2yt

BMMachine wrote: »

I personally don't mind the search functions on the site that much, maybe a few less clicks though The new front end is pretty horrible though - please dont force people to use it.
I also think that the site tends to become about moderators and moderation far too much though. In some forums (soccer namely) the moderation is crazy - very obvious trolls get away with trolling all the time and the moderators tend to jump through hoops to not ban them but then they are very quick to card people who call out someone who is trolling. It seems quite cliquey and very "who you know" in regards to how its moderated. On other forums I don't really notice too much which I suppose is a good thing but I do visit the prison forum often enough (can be a laugh) but got me thinking, do the admins there enjoy trolling banned users? I think they do and that to me is very small time and that small time attitude could leak downwards. I would take off the thing where it says what forums someone moderates on the side. Its quite small time, you moderate a forum - who cares? But its almost treated as a badge of respect where this person is "better" than non-mods (which both the mod and others react to in different ways). Make the site less about moderation and rank and more about the people. The best moderation is not seen or heard but instead on this site its very loud and very clear which to me creates an atmosphere of hostility which you can see all the way through this thread.

Aside from those issues I think the site is grand.

Replying to the bit on bold..
Yes they do and its quiet childish.

As for having the forums they mod on their profile. Its a good idea as it lets us mortals know that they are off their patch and just like us. I've seen them being dealt with when they break the charter rules.

P.s I like reading the prison forum too.

RDM_83 again

Myrddin wrote: »

3) Consistency of Moderation - Once we get a handle on 1 & 2 above, we can move on to this task (it's simply far too important to not be given full attention, so it's better if we clear the decks and handle this point as a separate task in itself). There are obviously a very large amount of mods spread across the site, and it's going to take a very structured and thought-out approach on how to bring moderation across the site closer together in consistency. I think it's fair to say there will always be some variation between forums/categories, some forums have higher standards than others, some have wildly different tones, and bringing moderation closer in consistency while maintaining the individuality of each forum is not an insignificant task. We do accept the point that things can be better though, and we agree

This seems to be dodging a lot of the feedback, I haven't read that many complaints about consistency of moderation between different forums, rather a lot of users have raised consistency internally within a forum.

andekwarhola

Royal Silly Ballet wrote: »

Replying to the bit on bold..
Yes they do and its quiet childish.

As for having the forums they mod on their profile. Its a good idea as it lets us mortals know that they are off their patch and just like us. I've seen them being dealt with when they break the charter rules.

P.s I like reading the prison forum too.

The 'dialogue' in the Prison forum should be only viewable by Admins. It's a cringeworthy image of the site to portray to the public and not edifying to the banners or the banned.

smash

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This seems to be dodging a lot of the feedback, I haven't read that many complaints about consistency of moderation between different forums, rather a lot of users have raised consistency internally within a forum.

Moderation will never be consistent because people aren't machines with preprogrammed rules. You can't count that everyone will agree/disagree/not be offended etc by a post.

RDM_83 again

smash wrote: »

Moderation will never be consistent because people aren't machines with preprogrammed rules. You can't count that everyone will agree/disagree/not be offended etc by a post.

Partially true but its a bit of a cop out, but one can always strive for greater consistency and if moderation is more inconsistent in a direction that can definitely be tackled.
This might be a controversial view but what about allowing posters to reference other posts in their defense in Dispute Res, if they can show that their problematic post is similar to what has been allowed for others or that they weren't the initiator of incivility it might help even out moderation

intheclouds

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Partially true but its a bit of a cop out, but one can always strive for greater consistency and if moderation is more inconsistent in a direction that can definitely be tackled.
This might be a controversial view but what about allowing posters to reference other posts in their defense in Dispute Res, if they can show that their problematic post is similar to what has been allowed for others or that they weren't the initiator of incivility it might help even out moderation

Ah come on. Dispute Resolution is about humiliating the posters, getting them to grovel. If you answer a certain way you might get your wish, but if you don't grovel you definitely won't. What you are suggesting would not be in line with the purpose of that forum (which is to pretend there is some kind of fair appeals process. There isn't.)

polluxspiky

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Partially true but its a bit of a cop out, but one can always strive for greater consistency and if moderation is more inconsistent in a direction that can definitely be tackled.
This might be a controversial view but what about allowing posters to reference other posts in their defense in Dispute Res, if they can show that their problematic post is similar to what has been allowed for others or that they weren't the initiator of incivility it might help even out moderation

But if two identical posts are reported and only one is actioned you would have clear, incontestable, evidence of bias. And that can't possibly exist, can it?

gandalf

andekwarhola wrote: »

The 'dialogue' in the Prison forum should be only viewable by Admins. It's a cringeworthy image of the site to portray to the public and not edifying to the banners or the banned.

This actually makes a lot of sense.

K-9

It's like looking for consistency in refereeing decisions, damn near impossible!

Context is key and often posters just will not be aware of work behind the scenes, user pm's, internal mod team discussion, reported posts, previous history of ignoring warnings etc., somebody looking on wouldn't be aware of all of that and I wouldn't expect them to be.

Consistency may mean going back to card dozens of posters retrospectively over a long time period. Consistent? Yes, Reasonable? Not imo. We can and do take feedback on board for future reference though.

Spanish Eyes

Posters should not be banned for having an opinion once it is made in a mannerly fashion and is not full of bad language etc..

But certain mods are of one view and will descend on those who are of opposite views sometimes. I find that absolutely infuriating.

Still the place is getting a bit more tolerant. Slowly.

There is no choice now. Total banning because a poster does not conform with a mod's political or libertarian leanings is waning. Thank god.

Not sustainable for debate. Once a point is polite and not personally abusive all should be well in a debate. Still.... a lot done, more to do.

Pawwed Rig

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Posters should not be banned for having an opinion once it is made in a mannerly fashion and is not full of bad language etc..

That is very forum and thread dependent to be honest. For example making a post outlining how bad Liverpool football club are and how much they deserve relegation to the third or fourth tier of the league is not uncivil in anyway but would definitely be trolling were I to do it in the Liverpool supporter thread in soccer and I would expect a card to arrive fairly quickly. The same is true in many forums and threads across the site that are from a certain perspective (such as smoking forum, tLL, tGC, LTI etc etc)
Sometimes an opinion is not appropriate to where it is posted and has to be considered trolling.

You often see it in motoring and cycling. Saying X about a cyclist in motoring forum might be fine whereas saying the same thing in a cycling forum may not be.

So without wishing to dismiss your feedback it would need to be more specific.

Skylinehead

andekwarhola wrote: »

The 'dialogue' in the Prison forum should be only viewable by Admins. It's a cringeworthy image of the site to portray to the public and not edifying to the banners or the banned.

gandalf wrote: »

This actually makes a lot of sense.

You'll have people complaining whatever happens there.

Open = "cringeworthy"

Closed = not transparent

Maireadio

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

See the number of negative vs positive reviews on sites like TripAdvisor - nobody "creates content" if they are satisfied with a service.

I use TripAdvisor a lot and that hasn't been my experience at all. LOTS of people go to the trouble of writing positive reviews.