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    #1772
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    You say if you were a mod you might have carded the post, think about it for a minute, why would somebody bother posting on AH when they will just attract cards for something thats a difference of opinion.
    But that's exactly my point. It wasn't presented as a difference of opinion. It was a stated as a fact and as a broad generalisation, frankly that trans who decide not to reveal that they were born with the organs of a different sex are rapists.

    That post really isn't open to interpretation. That is what it said. Couldn't have been clearer.

    There was a range of ways the poster could have expressed it as their opinion but they chose not to, so I for one am not surprised to then see a flurry of reported posts and a considered mod response. Instead of simply blaming the mod for the thread dying a death I'd instead look to the cause of the mod action.


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    #1773
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,327 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Its a classic example of the issues with AH and the site as a hole, moderation is very prescriptive and restrictive.
    In some cases that's necessary. As has been pointed out many times mods are volunteers. Very few will have any legal background for example, and most mods will naturally err on the side of caution rather than risk criticism or leaving the site in a potentially difficult legal position by not acting on stuff that is reported to them.

    In addition, of course, there are also risks of claims of inconsistency. If they do err on the side of caution the tendency will be to treat similar scenarios in a similar fashion. For those reasons we, quite reasonably in my view, see a lot of "zero tolerance" positions adopted on certain topics or within certain mod teams.

    Just to be clear none of my comments are made in light of any specific examples quoted above. I really do not think it appropriate to try and analyse specific decisions here. There are other avenues on the site to do that


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    #1774
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Like I said, there was a reason for that, at least a few years back. Now I think that something needs to happen, either loosen up the rules on tLL or tighten the rules on tGC. Personally, I think it should be the latter not the former, if the above happened. It is refreshing to see topics thrashed out intra-gender so I like the level of moderation in tLL and I think tGC should match that, not vice versa.


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    #1775
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Taltos wrote: »
    But that's exactly my point. It wasn't presented as a difference of opinion. It was a stated as a fact and as a broad generalisation, frankly that trans who decide not to reveal that they were born with the organs of a different sex are rapists.

    That post really isn't open to interpretation. That is what it said. Couldn't have been clearer.

    There was a range of ways the poster could have expressed it as their opinion but they chose not to, so I for one am not surprised to then see a flurry of reported posts and a considered mod response. Instead of simply blaming the mod for the thread dying a death I'd instead look to the cause of the mod action.

    Everything on Boards is basically opinion, if the poster had said IMO would the action be any different?

    The way I read what the poster has said is that they are saying the definition of rape in the UK already includes rape by deception, ergo if a trans person doesn't disclose the fact that they are trans it is deception and so may be considered rape.
    The correct response isn't to go "OMG they just said ALL trans are rapists" Report Report Report- shut down discussion, its to argue that the cases where there has been a precedent set for rape by deception aren't equivalent and/or that no deception occurs because a Trans person IS the gender/sex they say they are.

    This doesn't happen and instead we get avenues of discussion shut down, posters see this and think Boards/AH is over/ideologically moderated.

    Just because a post/opinion gets a lot of reports and might cause a reaction from some posters doesn't make the post automatically invalid or hateful, instead of actioning the post why not action the people that over-react to said post.

    Just because the Political is very much the Personal now doesn't change the fact that AH is a general non-specific discussion area, I know the whole "safe spaces" thing is over used but AH is not and was not designed to be that space, there is those spaces on other forums on Boards and thats good AH isn't those forums though.
    Beasty wrote: »
    In some cases that's necessary. As has been pointed out many times mods are volunteers. Very few will have any legal background for example, and most mods will naturally err on the side of caution rather than risk criticism or leaving the site in a potentially difficult legal position by not acting on stuff that is reported to them.

    In addition, of course, there are also risks of claims of inconsistency. If they do err on the side of caution the tendency will be to treat similar scenarios in a similar fashion. For those reasons we, quite reasonably in my view, see a lot of "zero tolerance" positions adopted on certain topics or within certain mod teams.

    Just to be clear none of my comments are made in light of any specific examples quoted above. I really do not think it appropriate to try and analyse specific decisions here. There are other avenues on the site to do that


    Don't you see how this attitude can be utilized by users to shut down topics they disagree with, maybe this wouldn't have been so much an issue in the past but a lot of posters are very much aware that this behavior is being used and the site is perceived by many as over moderated, ideologically biased and is in decline (something very much aided by some statements/actions by management).
    Why will a post bother reading threads when they know that they will either have to craft their reply extremely carefully (and I am not saying that abuse is ok but I recently nearly got a ban because a post of mine was mis-interpreted by a mod possibly due to my bad grammar) or just be unable to reply at all.


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    #1776
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    FriendComputer wrote: »
    The thing is, a long running problem on the site are low-level trolls: the kind of people who know how to skirt just within the rules so they can't be carded.

    Now, since we're (mostly) adults here, I'd hope people would be able to understand subtext and such when they see it. Of course, people are going to watch how they talk on that kind of thread but that doesn't mean they won't still say what they'd really like to. Just not in so many words.

    More generally it goes back to an issue that became very clear during the SSM debate: what happens when the subject in question involves users on the site? What happens when people want to be (for want of a better word) abusive or insulting in their descriptions of said people when said people make up some of the people on those threads?

    Because that's what it comes down to - we're not talking about some distant "other", we're talking about (and in some cases to) the very people who are members of the site. And while yes, people should be able to handle debate, no one should have to put up with being insulted in such brazen and oftentimes ****ty ways.

    It's probably the biggest reason I don't bother with AH any more.

    An interesting perspective for someone with a mar 2016 reg date


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    #1777
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If the posts are constructive why would anybody shut the debate down?

    I do think groupthink should get challenged, whether that's tLL or tGC sexism threads. The other side is they offer an alternative to the battle of the sexes and imported American buzz words in AH.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1778
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    K-9 wrote: »
    The other side is they offer an alternative to the battle of the sexes and imported American buzz words in AH.

    This is it. If the rules were relaxed, then they'd just become another Humanities, AH or Politic Café. They serve a particular purpose, IMO.


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    #1779
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Maireadio wrote: »
    Like I said, there was a reason for that, at least a few years back. Now I think that something needs to happen, either loosen up the rules on tLL or tighten the rules on tGC. Personally, I think it should be the latter not the former, if the above happened. It is refreshing to see topics thrashed out intra-gender so I like the level of moderation in tLL and I think tGC should match that, not vice versa.

    I see where you are coming from as regards the history on TLL. However, I think adopting the approach used by TGC would be the best in order to facilitate discussion. It allows all different viewpoints, even on the extreme end of the scale. Once things don't descend into anarchy then light touch modding is the way to go. Anything else and you risk an echo chamber.


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    #1780
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Bambi wrote: »
    An interesting perspective for someone with a mar 2016 reg date

    Read some of their other posts for context before passing judgement...


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    #1781
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    I am not trying to stop the discussion from either side. I am merely pointing out that there are some posts that thread that can be interpreted ambiguously.

    I opted to go for a thread note rather than a card or a ban to keep the discussion going but to keep in mind that what may be written in the discussion, although written in the spirit of the discussion with no malice intended, can be misconstrued on the other side of the argument and be read as being offensive. There have been plenty of times in AH where threads on similar subjects have taken a turn due to a misplaced phrase, so I'm using my experience to try prevent that from happening again.

    The post I picked from the thread can be painted in the light that all trans people as all sorts of criminal (3 counts) if they don't disclose their past. I don't believe it's what the poster was saying, but how it can be understood from the other side of argument can be something different.
    The post in question along with other posts in the thread with similar ambiguity were reported for the same reason.
    .

    I've been watching a lot of yes minister lately, and for some reason reading that post made me think of sir humphrey when he launches into on of his meandering, clause ridden explanations that are designed to just obfuscate :)

    You did none of the above my man, you quoted a poster then explicitly put words in his mouth ( no mention of "interpretation" until you had to start justifying it) and then declared that no one was to post anything similar, which implies that you would interpret any similar point made in an equally ridiculous manner.

    Thats shutting down the debate.


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    #1782
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    mzungu wrote: »
    I see where you are coming from as regards the history on TLL. However, I think adopting the approach used by TGC would be the best in order to facilitate discussion. It allows all different viewpoints, even on the extreme end of the scale.

    The thing is, when tLL moderation was along the lines of tGC, it was a disaster. At the time, I recall, things were significantly worse in the tLL than tGC. With the passage of time, it's easy to forget this or not realise it if you weren't there at the time.

    Was busy this afternoon so will look now for the feedback thread relating to it. Hopefully I can find it.
    mzungu wrote: »
    Anything else and you risk an echo chamber.

    Possibly but unless each gender is of a hive mind, this isnt going to happen. It certainly doesn't happen now. You see lots of different viewpoints being out forth on both fora. That's the intra-gender debate I was talking about earlier and it's something I personally enjoy and find interesting.


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    #1783
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    are these issues about the ladies lounge and the mens lounge not kinda derailing the thread?

    I personally think that a forum like the ladies lounge needs special rules in comparison to the rest of boards. Im too old and too experienced on the internet to know that the forum will be trolled more than others simply because it is a forum for women. Its stupid yes, but its a cause and effect thing. I see no reason for any man to actually post in it tbh


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    #1784
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    BMMachine wrote: »
    are these issues about the ladies lounge and the mens lounge not kinda derailing the thread?

    I personally think that a forum like the ladies lounge needs special rules in comparison to the rest of boards. Im too old and too experienced on the internet to know that the forum will be trolled more than others simply because it is a forum for women. Its stupid yes, but its a cause and effect thing. I see no reason for any man to actually post in it tbh

    Whilst I don't agree that men shouldn't post there, I'm with you on the bolded bit. Well, not that it needs special rules exactly but rather, stringent rules. It can happen in tGC too and that forum should be as stringent, but IME it has the potential to be much worse in tLL and certainly was in the past.


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    #1785
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Maireadio wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I enjoy it too. It does not take a hive mind to create an echo chamber. Take this example:
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The thread on chivalry welcomed all viewpoints, and was all the better for it. As correctly pointed out in that post, if that was in TLL it would most likely have been either shut down or opposing viewpoints would have been silenced. What do you have then? A thread full of lads saying they open doors for women etc with no opposing viewpoints. That creates an echo chamber.
    The thing is, when tLL moderation was along the lines of tGC, it was a disaster. At the time, I recall, things were significantly worse in the tLL than tGC. With the passage of time, it's easy to forget this or not realise it if you weren't there at the time.

    Was busy this afternoon so will look now for the feedback thread relating to it. Hopefully I can find it.

    Truth be told I tried to take a look for it myself but can't seem to locate it. Then again I've never quite gotten to grips with the search function.


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    #1786
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,762 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Maireadio wrote: »
    I look at both forums and both have low tolerance for members of the opposite sex parachuting in to present "the other side". The two forums are quite honest in the fact that they are places to foster intra-gender not inter-gender debate. All the topics discussed can be discussed elsewhere on the site too.

    I'm not going to speak for tLL but given that I mod tGC I think I can answer this. The Gentlemen's Club is a forum for men and men's issues. Women are welcome to post but the forum has a remit that the mods have to uphold. Modding isn't objective so one person's overzealous, discussion-killing mod is someone else's lazy mod who can't be bothered doing anything.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #1787
    Dcully
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 14,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dcully


    Wrong form sorry


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    #1788
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    Dcully wrote: »
    Wrong form sorry

    Banned


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    #1789
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    mzungu wrote: »
    Truth be told I tried to take a look for it myself but can't seem to locate it. Then again I've never quite gotten to grips with the search function.

    Roysh, here are some threads from days of yore (2011. All June 2011 actually! :eek:) to sick your teeth into:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72626912
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72813179
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72911323

    They're an interesting read. Not sure what was in the water that particular month though. Maybe it all just came to a head then or something?


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    #1790
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Maireadio wrote: »
    Roysh, here are some threads from days of yore (2011. All June 2011 actually! :eek:) to sick your teeth into:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72626912
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72813179
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72911323

    They're an interesting read. Not sure what was in the water that particular month though. Maybe it all just came to a head then or something?

    Thank you, I'll have a read through them.


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    #1791
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    This is the most rambling thread ever.


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    #1792
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    This is the most rambling thread ever.

    True. :pac:


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    #1793
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    The trend of moderation as I have stated before is probably driven by less than 20 posters (and the boards establishment)
    Why are a very small group of offense seeking posters considered so important?

    You've stated this a number of times. What have you got to back this up? It honestly sounds a bit paranoid.


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    #1794
    TherapyBoy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    Maireadio wrote: »
    You've stated this a number of times. What have you got to back this up? It honestly sounds a bit paranoid.

    I don't think he's wrong.

    Moderator: Non Drinkers Group & Grand Theft Auto



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    #1795
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    TherapyBoy wrote: »
    I don't think he's wrong.

    I'm not convinced myself personally.


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    #1796
    TherapyBoy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    It's not a Boards thing though. In recent years there has been a societal movement towards being offended about everything & for some reason this gives people power. If something offends me I walk the other way, I don't rampage into the middle of it & demand it's changed in case it offends someone else.

    We'll get over it, I think it's just a phase we're going through.

    Moderator: Non Drinkers Group & Grand Theft Auto



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    #1797
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Maireadio wrote: »
    You've stated this a number of times. What have you got to back this up? It honestly sounds a bit paranoid.

    Have a read through this thread and try telling people there's no cult of personality

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056028921&page=2

    tldr: admins here are not opposed to changing avatars and post histories depending on what might suit them, or staying silent when it happens


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    #1798
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Maireadio wrote: »
    You've stated this a number of times. What have you got to back this up? It honestly sounds a bit paranoid.

    I don't have anything sorry, its not something easily provable, AH mods might though.

    I don't think there is a mod conspiracy in general its more specific than that, I've had friends personal not online- don't have any connection on interaction with them on here and honestly not sure if still active on site), hell there is even apparently a mod posting stuff on the site that shall not be named.
    I do think there is a group of 'power' posters who's views intersect very well with the way Boards 'management' (thats a vague wording but would describe admins dav devore etc and the very established mods) want the site to be*.
    These posters tend to be treated more leniently in terms of personal abuse and the below the limit baiting and thread diversion of topics they don't like, I would hazard they create a lot of reported posts and those posts are actioned more than the norm.
    Similarly the way threads are sometimes treated.


    Even if all of the above is false and my paranoid imaginings, its a perception that exists about the site and the direction its taking thats held by more posters than just me. Like I would hold my hands up and say I am not a particularly great asset to the site, I nit pick (I have way to many posts on feedback for example), enjoy a good gender war and am in general not light-hearted, I quite like boards but honestly if I didn't hate the Americanisms and layout of Reddit so much I would have likely up on here and I think there is a lot of posters that have made that shift because of this feeling.



    * To be honest I don't really get some of the overly right on attitude of some of the old timers, like there was that notorious thread on feedback where the trans poster with issues got a load of really bad abuse, the thread My Name is URL linked to where a poster that is apparently mentally ill gets trolled by the admins (that one was a new one to me) and various stuff that must have happened behind the scenes or that I don't know/forgotten about. If they are so offended by comparatively trivial stuff now how did they handle the stuff that happened in the glory days which was pretty unpleasant even to somebody who's not politically correct, and remember in real non-internet terms the glory days weren't actually that long ago.


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    #1799
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I do think there is a group of 'power' posters who's views intersect very well with the way Boards 'management' (thats a vague wording but would describe admins dav devore etc and the very established mods) want the site to be*.
    These posters tend to be treated more leniently in terms of personal abuse and the below the limit baiting and thread diversion of topics they don't like, I would hazard they create a lot of reported posts and those posts are actioned more than the norm.
    Similarly the way threads are sometimes treated.

    Yes, there is a non-mod long-standing poster (may be a former mod, I'm not sure) who slavishly toes the party line and has made a few dubious comments (not in this thread) that have been heavily mod-thanked, and there is another long-standing poster who is a former mod and I actually consider him to be a low-level troll. Pretty much all posts of his is a smart answer of some kind or another. So I know what you mean.

    There was another poster who was very long-standing. He was heavy on the snark but was very popular on the site. He closed his account for whatever reason and then created a new one. (it was very obvious to me that it was the same poster) It was interesting to see him in his new guise not be anywhere near as popular and his snarkiness not anywhere near as well-received, perhaps because people didn't recognise it was him. So yes, some user names to seem to carry a certain cachet.

    I think everyone is inclined to be biased towards certain others, it's a very human condition so I'm not sure this kind of thing can ever really be eradicated. And I just don't believe this is what's causing boards.ie's problems. These popular posters have been there for years and the site's problems are pretty recent.


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    #1800
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1801
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Mainly because we all have a persepctive on our own gender that the opposite will never have (I think so many of us have a natural slight bias towards our own gender and so may be blind to some of what the other gender experiences so it's interesting to read the opposite gender forum too) so discussing things with people who share that gender can bring out points that arguments that may never have been considered otherwise. It gives a different slant to topics that give the topic a different facet and can add to it. As boards has always been much more male-heavy, it's especially helpful to have a female-heavy forum, I think. Anything talked about on either forum can be discussed elsewhere too.

    I like reading topics on both forums and see the value in discussions from a male and female perspective.


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