Phoenix Park cycle lane incident

Birdie Num Num

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

@This Regard,

The reason the Shuttle Bus thing didn't work well, was because parking was allowed concurrently.

The reason the bus didn't work was because it wasn't used. One of the arguments for it's inception was a need for transport for the 1,500 or so employees within the park. It was also, I think, an appeasement or watered down idea of introducing bus lanes through the park. That was a ridiculous idea that fortunately never happened.

2RockMountain

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well now, what if someone wants to cycle on the Walking side because the deer are on the cycling side?

Just take the deers' bikes off them and lock the bikes up in a shed. They can't manage the keys at all.

the14thwarrior

oh DEER

Carawaystick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Public Transport is ace around there. Connecting to North, South East and West.

How do I get to the popes cross from Finglas by PT?



One of the issues I've posted about before is near the Zoo, the footpath is fenced off from the road, leading people to walk on the cycle lane.
It'd be sensible to ban parking on the North side of Chesterfield avenue here, and make the hard shoulder a bike lane, put a kerb between it and the road.

People complained upthread about the inner path being too dark. The solution here is lights. Brighter ones.

Birdie Num Num

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do I get to the popes cross from Finglas by PT?



One of the issues I've posted about before is near the Zoo, the footpath is fenced off from the road, leading people to walk on the cycle lane.
It'd be sensible to ban parking on the North side of Chesterfield avenue here, and make the hard shoulder a bike lane, put a kerb between it and the road.

People complained upthread about the inner path being too dark. The solution here is lights. Brighter ones.

That would destroy the park.

beauf

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

The reason the bus didn't work was because it wasn't used. One of the arguments for it's inception was a need for transport for the 1,500 or so employees within the park. It was also, I think, an appeasement or watered down idea of introducing bus lanes through the park. That was a ridiculous idea that fortunately never happened.

I remember that bus. Was it late 90's? I thought was a means to connect Castleknock Gate to Parkgate. I thought it didn't work because it was always stuck in traffic at either end. So people didn't use it because it was so slow. Also it was in the days before the Luas etc. So there wasn't an easy way from the end of the park into town. I seem to remember car traffic congestion being a lot worse back then.

smacl

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do I get to the popes cross from Finglas by PT?

Just a thought, but maybe bike :pac:

Carawaystick

smacl wrote: »

Just a thought, but maybe bike :pac:

A poster upthread said the PhoenixPark had great access by Public transport from all directions. I was merely pointing out it doesn't. I'd be slow to let my 6 year old cycle Ashtown road, around the Halfwayhouse roundabout and into the Park along Castleknock road.

roverrules

Carawaystick wrote: »

A poster upthread said the PhoenixPark had great access by Public transport from all directions. I was merely pointing out it doesn't. I'd be slow to let my 6 year old cycle Ashtown road, around the Halfwayhouse roundabout and into the Park along Castleknock road.

As regards Public Transport the PP website provides the following information.

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/visitorinformation/gettingtherepublictransportationcarparks/

07Lapierre

Carawaystick wrote: »

A poster upthread said the PhoenixPark had great access by Public transport from all directions. I was merely pointing out it doesn't. I'd be slow to let my 6 year old cycle Ashtown road, around the Halfwayhouse roundabout and into the Park along Castleknock road.

And so you should be! 6 year old is too young to cycle on their own. But I see no reason why an adult cant accompany any child by Bike on any road.

uck51js9zml2yt

As others have said, its impossible to get from the car across to the pedestrian lane due to the railings, particularly if you have a pram/ buggy.

All it really takes is some awareness by both pedestrians and cyclists that they may be sharing a lane to prevent accidents.

If a cyclist is coming up behind a pedestrian its useful to one, look up and two, have a working bell.

Birdie Num Num

beauf wrote: »

I remember that bus. Was it late 90's? I thought was a means to connect Castleknock Gate to Parkgate. I thought it didn't work because it was always stuck in traffic at either end. So people didn't use it because it was so slow. Also it was in the days before the Luas etc. So there wasn't an easy way from the end of the park into town. I seem to remember car traffic congestion being a lot worse back then.

Much more recent. I'd guess within the last 8-10 years. It went relatively unnoticed and rarely had any passengers on board. I am not sure it even lasted a year. It was a single decker bus that circled the park. It wasn't for commuters through the park but a means for getting people around the park.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Phoenix_Park_Shuttle_bus_99D88702,_Dublin,_Ireland_-Aircoach-21Dec209.jpg

ThisRegard

beauf wrote: »

I remember that bus. Was it late 90's?

There was one running much more recently, up until the last couple of years. It was aimed at tourists/visitors rather than commuters.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/4204531590

In 2008 the Phoenix Park Shuttle Bus was launched to provide an alternative method of travelling around the Park, other than by car. The shuttle bus operates on a circular loop around the Park. The bus starts and terminates at Parkgate St. and operates on a hop on- hop off basis at the various stops around the Park. The service operates every 60 minutes, on the hour every hour, between 7 a.m.-7 p.m., Monday to Friday, and 10 a.m.-7 p.m., on weekends and bank holidays.

EDIT: Birdie Num Num was slightly quicker off the mark than I.

07Lapierre

Johanna Silly Stud wrote: »

All it really takes is some awareness by both pedestrians and cyclists that they may be sharing a lane to prevent accidents.

.

Agree. A bit of common courtesy by everyone would go a long way.

2RockMountain

Johanna Silly Stud wrote: »

As others have said, its impossible to get from the car across to the pedestrian lane due to the railings, particularly if you have a pram/ buggy.

All it really takes is some awareness by both pedestrians and cyclists that they may be sharing a lane to prevent accidents.

If a cyclist is coming up behind a pedestrian its useful to one, look up and two, have a working bell.

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree. A bit of common courtesy by everyone would go a long way.

Disagree - the common courtesy would involved pedestrians getting off the cycle lane. The railings are far from 'impossible' to get through, even with a pram or buggy. Yes, they may be a bit cumbersome, but they are a long way from insurmountable or impossible. It's not great design, but it's not a good excuse either.

beauf

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Much more recent. I'd guess within the last 8-10 years. It went relatively unnoticed and rarely had any passengers on board. I am not sure it even lasted a year. It was a single decker bus that circled the park. It wasn't for commuters through the park but a means for getting people around the park.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Phoenix_Park_Shuttle_bus_99D88702,_Dublin,_Ireland_-Aircoach-21Dec209.jpg

Maybe I'm thinking of an older one then.

ThisRegard

2RockMountain wrote: »

The railings are far from 'impossible' to get through, even with a pram or buggy.

From whom's point of view? Take a decent sized pram system, stick a sleeping child in it with their nappy bags and try lift it over them. Obviously it's not impossible, but it's not a choice many people will chose.

07Lapierre

2RockMountain wrote: »

Disagree - the common courtesy would involved pedestrians getting off the cycle lane. The railings are far from 'impossible' to get through, even with a pram or buggy. Yes, they may be a bit cumbersome, but they are a long way from insurmountable or impossible. It's not great design, but it's not a good excuse either.

your suggesting people should climb a fence/railing to get out of your way? :eek:

LollipopJimmy

2RockMountain wrote: »

Disagree - the common courtesy would involved pedestrians getting off the cycle lane. The railings are far from 'impossible' to get through, even with a pram or buggy. Yes, they may be a bit cumbersome, but they are a long way from insurmountable or impossible. It's not great design, but it's not a good excuse either.

The signposting isn't great throughout though and that particular cycle lane must be treated as a dawdling lane, far too many variables, children, wild animals, slow cyclists, very much beginner cyclists. Plenty of other places to go for KOMs. A little patience goes a long long way

Carawaystick

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

That would destroy the park.

Brighter lights on the bike...

Seve OB

Carawaystick wrote: »

A poster upthread said the PhoenixPark had great access by Public transport from all directions. I was merely pointing out it doesn't. I'd be slow to let my 6 year old cycle Ashtown road, around the Halfwayhouse roundabout and into the Park along Castleknock road.

Fairly hard to get to from castleknock end also. Its a hell of a long walk down through the park and then walk around the zoo and then walk back up. You would want to be fair fit......... Then try and do that with a few young kids! Wherever your public transport leaves you outside the park, its a good hike up to the zoo. Not realistic at all to expect people to only use public transport.:rolleyes:

2RockMountain wrote: »

Disagree - the common courtesy would involved pedestrians getting off the cycle lane. The railings are far from 'impossible' to get through, even with a pram or buggy. Yes, they may be a bit cumbersome, but they are a long way from insurmountable or impossible. It's not great design, but it's not a good excuse either.

haha ...... Have you ever tried.

smacl

Carawaystick wrote: »

A poster upthread said the PhoenixPark had great access by Public transport from all directions. I was merely pointing out it doesn't. I'd be slow to let my 6 year old cycle Ashtown road, around the Halfwayhouse roundabout and into the Park along Castleknock road.

Said primarily in jest, this being a cycling forum and all that. I used a trailgator when my youngest was that age, though to be fair, never took her into the city centre on it. Taken the kids to the zoo by bus a couple of times. Two buses and time consuming but more of an adventure than being stuck in a car.

smacl

Seve OB wrote: »

Wherever your public transport leaves you outside the park, its a good hike up to the zoo. Not realistic at all to expect people to only use public transport.:rolleyes:

Have you even tried? 46a leaves you on Infirmary road right by the zoo, taken it with kids (and buggy in times past) on numerous occasions. Dublin Bus site shows 11 routes in easy walking distance to the zoo.

ThisRegard

I don't know where this romantic notion came from that it's better to triple or quadruple your journey time to get to this zoo by public transport. It's a 15 minute drive from my house to the zoo carpark for example, at the far side of park from where I live.

By public transport it's 90 minutes early on a Sunday morning so no traffic, provided you time it right and aren't hanging around at every bus stop.

Hey kids, 15 minutes spin stuck in the car to the Zoo but we'll have lots of time when we get there, or an hour and a half by buses with the added bonus we'll be in a bit more of a hurry, but you'll be cranky so it will be great fun.

CramCycle

Once the LUAS cross city is up and running, that is the way I will be going, hop off at Heuston and walk up from there to the Zoo

OleRodrigo

The first thing you notice about the Phoenix Park, is that its ruined by cars. You can say the same for Dublin, generally.

07Lapierre

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know where this romantic notion came from that it's better to triple or quadruple your journey time to get to this zoo by public transport. It's a 15 minute drive from my house to the zoo carpark for example, at the far side of park from where I live.

By public transport it's 90 minutes early on a Sunday morning so no traffic, provided you time it right and aren't hanging around at every bus stop.

Hey kids, 15 minutes spin stuck in the car to the Zoo but we'll have lots of time when we get there, or an hour and a half by buses with the added bonus we'll be in a bit more of a hurry, but you'll be cranky so it will be great fun.

I'm with you, I don't use public transport where possible...although walking or cycling are also viable alternatives to driving?

2RockMountain

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

The signposting isn't great throughout though and that particular cycle lane must be treated as a dawdling lane, far too many variables, children, wild animals, slow cyclists, very much beginner cyclists. Plenty of other places to go for KOMs. A little patience goes a long long way

No-one mentioned KOMs, but there is no excuse for pedestrians or children to be on that cycle lane. Just move over, it's not hard.

ThisRegard wrote: »

From whom's point of view? Take a decent sized pram system, stick a sleeping child in it with their nappy bags and try lift it over them. Obviously it's not impossible, but it's not a choice many people will chose.

07Lapierre wrote: »

your suggesting people should climb a fence/railing to get out of your way? :eek:

Seve OB wrote: »

haha ...... Have you ever tried.

Are we talking about the same railings? The old black railings, with a bar about waist height and uprights about 2m apart? See photos on the broadsheet article titled 'psycho path'.

It's not a fence. There is no barbed wire. There are lots of gaps. Many buggies could be pushed under it, if tilted. And if it does prove to difficult for someone to get their family though, why don't they just walk on the grass, away from the cycle lane?

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

smacl

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know where this romantic notion came from that it's better to triple or quadruple your journey time to get to this zoo by public transport.

Probably comes down to enjoying the journey and taking time to explore, which coincidentally is the main reason I cycle to remote places that I could get to much more quickly and easily by car. I've taken the kids on a number of trips around the country by bus and train to remote areas and they enjoy and look forward to the journey. Don't remember anyone looking forward to the drive to Kerry, Donegal, etc... nor remembering the same fondly. Going into town with the kids, we'd nearly always take the bus, slow and all as it is. Different strokes for different folks; for me not having the car is a pleasure the same way as turning off the phone.

ThisRegard

2RockMountain wrote: »

Are we talking about the same railings? The old black railings, with a bar about waist height and uprights about 2m apart? See photos on the broadsheet article titled 'psycho path'.

It's not a fence. There is no barbed wire. There are lots of gaps. Many buggies could be pushed under it, if tilted. And if it does prove to difficult for someone to get their family though, why don't they just walk on the grass, away from the cycle lane?

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

I didn't see anyone say it's an excuse, they were rightly saying that it's not easy to lift over, or duck under, like you claim.

ThisRegard

smacl wrote: »

Probably comes down to enjoying the journey and taking time to explore, which coincidentally is the main reason I cycle to remote places that I could get to much more quickly and easily by car. I've taken the kids on a number of trips around the country by bus and train to remote areas and they enjoy and look forward to the journey. Don't remember anyone looking forward to the drive to Kerry, Donegal, etc... nor remembering the same fondly. Going into town with the kids, we'd nearly always take the bus, slow and all as it is. Different strokes for different folks; for me not having the car is a pleasure the same way as turning off the phone.

We've often got the bus into the city to make a day of it too. I've taken them on the dart to get to places in which it's quicker for us to drive.

And in fairness what's normally a short journey to a place 15 minutes door to door doesn't fall into the category of being an exciting journey when you make that usual journey 6 times longer.

I think they'd much prefer that time actually exploring the park than sitting in a bus, I know I do.

NiallBoo

This really makes you think how daft it is that a road in a park is allowed to be a used as a rat-run.

I'm surprised they didn't block it off to through-traffic years ago.

(Not a cycling related comment, it would just make the park a lot nicer)

CramCycle

NiallBoo wrote: »

This really makes you think how daft it is that a road in a park is allowed to be a used as a rat-run.

I'm surprised they didn't block it off to through-traffic years ago.

(Not a cycling related comment, it would just make the park a lot nicer)

They block it off occasionally for events. The last one I was at, some people did not like that it was blocked off, one motorcyclist ploughed through the middle and another car drove up on the grass and around it. Again, around where families were sitting down to enjoy the event. it should have been blocked off to through traffic bar emergency vehicles or public transport years ago.

trellheim

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

Absolutely none of that matters given the cyclist's requirement to cycle safely with regard to the prevailing conditions and other users on the path/carriageway. And I've been a city cycle path user for over 30 years in Dublin .

Suggesting otherwise is ignoring the reality.

uck51js9zml2yt

2RockMountain wrote: »

No-one mentioned KOMs, but there is no excuse for pedestrians or children to be on that cycle lane. Just move over, it's not hard.






Are we talking about the same railings? The old black railings, with a bar about waist height and uprights about 2m apart? See photos on the broadsheet article titled 'psycho path'.

It's not a fence. There is no barbed wire. There are lots of gaps. Many buggies could be pushed under it, if tilted. And if it does prove to difficult for someone to get their family though, why don't they just walk on the grass, away from the cycle lane?

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

You've obviously never done it.

I'll donate a buggy and child if we want to run an experiment
We may need a few to make it a fair test!

traprunner

Johanna Silly Stud wrote: »

You've obviously never done it.

I'll donate a buggy and child if we want to run an experiment
We may need a few to make it a fair test!

Sounds like you are looking for a free babysitter

uck51js9zml2yt

traprunner wrote: »

Sounds like you are looking for a free babysitter

Good idea. We could do it near the tea rooms and have s coffee while the others try prove us wrong:)

Edit typos from phone;)

CramCycle

traprunner wrote: »

Sounds like you are looking for a free babysitter

If your offering

CramCycle

trellheim wrote: »

Suggesting otherwise is ignoring the reality.

+1 just because a pram and parent (or any other user found there) shouldn't be there gives no cyclist the right to give out, speed past, put them in danger. A bit of consideration and courtesy is more necessary than anything else. Any cyclist who can't accept that two wrongs don't make a right, should get off the bike and walk home, preferably staying there as they aren't fit to mix with society.

The only people I feel a cyclist should give out to is someone intentionally causing danger or obstruction. The few times I have used the bike path, anyone i have met walking as smiled, I have slowed, went around and continued on my way, no harm done.

If a person cannot act civilized then they have lost the right of membership to said society, take the hint and jog on.

traprunner

CramCycle wrote: »

If your offering

No thanks. It's tough enough looking after my niece and nephew every now and again without taking on any more.

roverrules

2RockMountain wrote: »

No-one mentioned KOMs, but there is no excuse for pedestrians or children to be on that cycle lane. Just move over, it's not hard.






Are we talking about the same railings? The old black railings, with a bar about waist height and uprights about 2m apart? See photos on the broadsheet article titled 'psycho path'.

It's not a fence. There is no barbed wire. There are lots of gaps. Many buggies could be pushed under it, if tilted. And if it does prove to difficult for someone to get their family though, why don't they just walk on the grass, away from the cycle lane?

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

Sorry, but you seem to think that buggies are like an ATV.



Been a while since I needed to negotiate anywhere with a buggy but a little cop on would go a long way.

Even pavements aren't always suitable terrain for buggies.


So suggesting they use the grass to access a space is just absurd.

Like when a pedestrian is crossing the road or walking adjacent to the pavement, you'd expect a car to exercise more caution, I'd expect to exercise more caution on the bike, try slowing down, it's not hard, especially if said buggy pusher is picking up things that have spilled out from tilting it to get under the barriers ( God forbid they spill the baby out to accommodate your wishes ) There is little excuse for hitting a pedestrian if you cycle with due care and attention.

I do think that people who suggest such thing are probably childless and if so suggest you go and take a couple of nieces and nephews out in a buggy for the day before commenting.

uck51js9zml2yt

roverrules wrote: »

I do think that people who suggest such thing are probably childless and if so suggest you go and take a couple of nieces and nephews out in a buggy for the day before commenting.

Maybe its for the best. Having to think of someone else other than themselves seems beyond a lot of people

eoinbn

2RockMountain wrote: »

There really is no excuse for walking on the cycle lane.

I sometimes run on the cycle lane in the Phoenix Park as a number of the pedestrian lanes get flooded. Also the lanes that get flooded are in from the road and are unlit. Both valid reasons IMO. I have only met one cyclist who voiced a different opinion!

ThisRegard

Between walking, running and cycling around there regularly you always meet people who are gob****es, like everywhere in life. There's the guy with the whistle who waits until he's close to pedestrians before blowing it, haven't seen him in a long time, and the guy I saw giving a girl roller blading a shove as he went by, and the walkers who steadfastly refuse to give cyclists room on the cycle lane when they walk two or more abreast.

JayRoc

As someone whose only mode of transport is my bike, I find the attitude of "Why shouldn't I ride as fast as I like, it's a bike lane and peds shouldn't be there" quite hard to relate to.

It seems pedestrians wandering across these particular lanes is common, if reports here are anything to go by, and if that's the case and someone still insists on doing 40-50kph they're being extremely silly. The same way you don't ride that fast if there's any significant chance of someone doing something daft that would cause you to collide with them (stepping off a kerb that you're near, opening a car door, etc).

Assuming people are going to behave correctly is foolish. Basing your safety on that assumption is very foolish

Roadhawk

JayRoc wrote: »

As someone whose only mode of transport is my bike, I find the attitude of "Why shouldn't I ride as fast as I like, it's a bike lane and peds shouldn't be there" quite hard to relate to.

It seems pedestrians wandering across these particular lanes is common, if reports here are anything to go by, and if that's the case and someone still insists on doing 40-50kph they're being extremely silly. The same way you don't ride that fast if there's any significant chance of someone doing something daft that would cause you to collide with them (stepping off a kerb that you're near, opening a car door, etc).

Assuming people are going to behave correctly is foolish. Basing your safety on that assumption is very foolish

I completely agree with you. A cyclist should have the same vigilance in a cycle track as a motorist has on the road. If there are pedestrians in the are you should proceed with caution. Start by reducing speed so you can react to what is in front of you. You are correct to say that many reports refer to a pedestrian as the most unpredictable road user and therefore a dangerous road user. However accidents to happen.

Does anyone know if both parties involved are ok?

Bloggsie

With all due respect to the people who have taken the time to make their feelings and opinions known, the only fact worth considering is that anyone of us that cycles or walks the pp for what ever reason could have been involved in this instance be it that you are a careful cyclist or not, IMO the rest of all the posts on this is just BS, 2 people were hurt seriously, blaming the layout of the cyclepath or peds for walking on the cyclepath, angry drivers overtaking because cyclists arent using the cyclepath (or angry deer) is rubbish!

Lambasting all and sundry for what you perceive as the rights or wrongs as to what caused the incident is all horsemanure. It is incubent on anyone who uses the park to take proper care and attention, just the same as they would on a public road.

CramCycle

Bloggsie wrote: »

Lambasting all and sundry for what you perceive as the rights or wrongs as to what caused the incident is all horsemanure. It is incubent on anyone who uses the park to take proper care and attention, just the same as they would on a public road.

The discussion has moved on from the accident to issues with the park in general as far as I know. None of my comments, or anyone elses, in recent pages refer to the accident at all.

Refer to post #4

Birdie Num Num

Bloggsie wrote: »

With all due respect to the people who have taken the time to make their feelings and opinions known, the only fact worth considering is that anyone of us that cycles or walks the pp for what ever reason could have been involved in this instance be it that you are a careful cyclist or not, IMO the rest of all the posts on this is just BS, 2 people were hurt seriously, blaming the layout of the cyclepath or peds for walking on the cyclepath, angry drivers overtaking because cyclists arent using the cyclepath (or angry deer) is rubbish!

Lambasting all and sundry for what you perceive as the rights or wrongs as to what caused the incident is all horsemanure. It is incubent on anyone who uses the park to take proper care and attention, just the same as they would on a public road.

Hi Bloggsie,

In fairness, I don't think anyone has tried to suggest what the cause of the accident was and there was no blame apportioned by anyone within the thread as far as I have seen but I may be wrong. I understand your words are of good intention and I think all here would be concerned about the health of both injured parties in the accident that occurred. In saying that the thread certainly has drifted.

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: A very gentle reminder, a serious accident has taken place, and people are seriously hurt. Any turns from now on to assign blame or guess who is to blame will result in cards and bans, joking or otherwise. Some posts already deleted