Bring back the death sentence

Pro Hoc Vice

Custardpi wrote: »

In the US life sentences can be imposed consecutively I think - leads to sentences of several hundred years. Basically a guarantee that the criminal will never be free rather than a literal sentence of several lifetimes.

Here's one example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader#Legal_proceedings



Obviously he'll be dead long before 2180 but the sentence ensures that he hasn't a hope in hell of ever being released.

thats the USA the Irish system does not work that way, in any event if it was imposed here it could be in breach of the ECHR as no availability of review has been struck down.

Custardpi

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

thats the USA the Irish system does not work that way, in any event if it was imposed here it could be in breach of the ECHR as no availability of review has been struck down.

I'm well aware that it's a different country, just showing how consecutive sentences would work in theory if available. Obviously legal reality is different here.

Pro Hoc Vice

mzungu wrote: »

I meant the time spent in jail.

That is up to the Minister of Justice. I think any minister releasing this guy would face a lot of difficulty.

Lackey

Quote: Pro Hoc Vice
How can you give a longer sentence than life,

Judges can and do give longer sentances than life unfortunately not in ireland though

So I ask the question again how can longer sentences than life be the answer.

They are the answer to every victim who suffers at the hands of scumbags with 50/100 previous convictions.
If this guy had got life for raping his daughter he wouldn't have been out to do what he did.

NiallBoo

This is the silliest idea I've seen here in a while.

Pro Hoc Vice

Lackey wrote: »

Quote: Pro Hoc Vice
How can you give a longer sentence than life,

Judges can and do give longer sentances than life unfortunately not in ireland though

So I ask the question again how can longer sentences than life be the answer.

They are the answer to every victim who suffers at the hands of scumbags with 50/100 previous convictions.
If this guy had got life for raping his daughter he wouldn't have been out to do what he did.

If he had got life previously he could have been released by the Minister for Justice. Giving 8 consecutive life sentences could mean he is released in 20 or 30 years and will be a matter for the then minister for justice.

12Phase

The issue, as I see it anyway, is inadequate risk assessment on bail and early release.

You've got to take public safety into account ahead of anything else.

A small % of extremely violent criminals need to be kept where they can't cause further damage.

I don't think the death sentence is ever appropriate. It's got too much risk of miscarriage of justice, it doesn't have any deterrent effect considering that violent crime and murder rates are far higher in the US than in Europe. You've also got a situation where it may not even be a threat for someone who is unhinged and sees it as an easy exit or even martyrdom. It also debases society and the state, by bringing us down to the level of a killer.

We have to start making much better risk assessments though.

I'd actually prefer to see far more focus on non-custodial sentences for non-violent, non-dangerous crimes and definitely not being used for things like non payment of fines, but much harsher custodial sentences for those who commit violent crimes.

Arsemageddon

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

That is up to the Minister of Justice. I think any minister releasing this guy would face a lot of difficulty.

We have an amazingly retarded parole system with a parole board stuffed with untrained party hacks who frequently ignore the expert advice of Prison Service staff. For the most part the Minister for Justice just rubber stamps their decisions.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/analysis-informal-system-decides-fate-of-those-serving-life-1.2097526

By the by, I don't think there would be any trouble for decision makers if this particular rapist was released, his anonymity means very few people actually know who he is.

Lackey

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

If he had got life previously he could have been released by the Minister for Justice. Giving 8 consecutive life sentences could mean he is released in 20 or 30 years and will be a matter for the then minister for justice.

True, can't see any minister wanting to be seen to release a kiddie rapist though.

Custardpi

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

That is up to the Minister of Justice. I think any minister releasing this guy would face a lot of difficulty.

Much less "difficulty" than that faced by his victims though, eh? Sadly in 20 years time the news cycle may not pay too much attention to the Waterford man in question (who will probably still be anonymous) & the story of his potential release will be overshadowed by some 2036 celebrity getting a new haircut or whatever. This guy will thus be quietly released with only a handful of people being aware of it. But sure that'll be a matter for the Minister For Justice, so nothing for the little people to worry about.

L.Jenkins

While the Death Penalty would be a convenient method of dispensing with Prisoners, they should be forced to repay their debt to society, by firstly working off the financial cost of their incarceration.

Liamario

Prison sentences for life/death sentences is like sweeping the problem under the rug. We need to understand what led to the crime and there needs to be atonement. I'm not saying free them, but there needs to be opportunity for them to understand their crime and the guilt that comes with it.

Esel

Liamario wrote: »

.. there needs to be opportunity for them to understand their crime and the guilt that comes with it.

In The Penal Colony, a short story by Kafka

I read it on Frank Zappa's recommendation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony

Arsemageddon

Itzy wrote: »

While the Death Penalty would be a convenient method of dispensing with Prisoners, they should be forced to repay their debt to society, by firstly working off the financial cost of their incarceration.

They would have to get pretty decent jobs - it costs between €70-80k a year to keep a person in prison.

rainbowtrout

Liamario wrote: »

Prison sentences for life/death sentences is like sweeping the problem under the rug. We need to understand what led to the crime and there needs to be atonement. I'm not saying free them, but there needs to be opportunity for them to understand their crime and the guilt that comes with it.

Well he got 9 years for raping his daughter and was then released. Not much atonement there.

This concurrent sentencing business wrecks my head. Multiple crimes should mean multiple sentences to run consecutively. Even if each of these eight 'life sentences' had a nominal figure of 8-10 years on them but to run consecutively, effectively he would serve a life sentence.

chillin117

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The fact that this piece of sh1t was given 8 life sentences is something that will have to be taken into consideration by the review board which will decide whether to release him or not. I give top marks to the judge for handing down a suitable sentence.

In Ireland, a life sentence doesn't mean that a prisoner is automatically released after 25 years are up. Shaw & Evans (murdered and raped 2 women) have been in prison since 1976. Malcolm McArthur served 30+ years for a single life sentence.

Evans died in 2012 after being in a coma for 4 years
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/death-of-an-abomination-194707.html

namloc1980

Belarus is the only country in Europe which has the death penalty. Do we really want to join that club? Also it's completely illegal in Ireland. For us to even consider bringing it back we would need to leave the EU, renege on commitments to the European Convention on Human Rights, have a Constitutional referendum and then pass laws by majority in the Dail. All political parties in Ireland are opposed to it. So it's never coming back thankfully....doesn't stop these threads popping up every few months though.

12Phase

Liamario wrote: »

Prison sentences for life/death sentences is like sweeping the problem under the rug. We need to understand what led to the crime and there needs to be atonement. I'm not saying free them, but there needs to be opportunity for them to understand their crime and the guilt that comes with it.

It works with most but I genuinely think you've a small % who are just plain psycho. There's a point where things get into the inexplicable. There are people who just have no remorse and don't care. Probably not very many examples of them, but they exist.

I'm totally opposed to the death sentence but I do think with a small % of evtreme cases you need to be able to keep someone locked away very, very safely for the sake of everyone else.

Arsemageddon

chillin117 wrote: »

Evans died in 2012 after being in a coma for 4 years
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/death-of-an-abomination-194707.html

I'd forgotten that he died - such a tragic loss.

Liamario

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well he got 9 years for raping his daughter and was then released. Not much atonement there.

This concurrent sentencing business wrecks my head. Multiple crimes should mean multiple sentences to run consecutively. Even if each of these eight 'life sentences' had a nominal figure of 8-10 years on them but to run consecutively, effectively he would serve a life sentence.

I don't know if he has atoned for what he did, but it's unlikely he has done so in 9 years. The system is broken. Society needs to take on the responsibility of it's community members and those involved in the upbringing of these people should be held to account.

Try to keep in mind that this deranged man was once a small infant. Over the course of many years, he became what he became.

rainbowtrout

Liamario wrote: »

I don't know if he has atoned for what he did, but it's unlikely he has done so in 9 years. The system is broken. Society needs to take on the responsibility of it's community members and those involved in the upbringing of these people should be held to account.

Try to keep in mind that this deranged man was once a small infant. Over the course of many years, he became what he became.

Not in all cases. There are some criminals out there who come from perfectly normal homes and their upbringing has nothing to do with the horrible crimes they commit.

Liamario

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not in all cases. There are some criminals out there who come from perfectly normal homes and their upbringing has nothing to do with the horrible crimes they commit.

Then they have mental issues which haven't been caught early enough.

moc moc a moc

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I give top marks to the judge for handing down a suitable sentence

I don't see how 8 concurrent sentences are sensible TBH. First off, sentences should be consecutive. Second, where are 8 of them coming from? Two I can understand, but 8 seems like throwing wood on the pyre for the sake of it.

At least someone is actually getting a sentence for a change, but I'd rather these so-called "8" sentences were spread around more.

chillin117

moc moc a moc wrote: »

I don't see how 8 concurrent sentences are sensible TBH. First off, sentences should be consecutive. Second, where are 8 of them coming from? Two I can understand, but 8 seems like throwing wood on the pyre for the sake of it.

At least someone is actually getting a sentence for a change, but I'd rather these so-called "8" sentences were spread around more.

I was baiting a scammer and he told me he would kill me twice so anythings possible