Inheritance Nightmares

Consuelano

I read an article in the Journal containing stories from people whose families were torn apart due to wills and inheritances and I found it fascinating.

[Can't post link]

I'm lucky in that both my parents are still alive and well, and AFAIK everything is to be divided equally between myself and my sibling, so there shouldn't really be a problem. Yet, the amount of stories I heard from friends and colleagues down through the years of huge falling-outs is staggering and in some ways frightening. Is it a uniquely Irish thing, or is it the greedy part of human nature coming out?

I think most people have a story or two that they've experienced, witnessed or heard. So people of AH, where there's a will, is there a way?

smash

Most of the stories I've heard come from the farming community where everyone wants the land.

The_Valeyard

Yeah I knw of people who do not speak to family over land and wills. So sad ruins everything. Not sure is it greed or what people think they are owed.

When my parents die (hope long time off) I am owed nothing but have been given wonderful memories and time.

Arsemageddon

The_Valeyard wrote: »

When my parents die (hope long time off) I am owed nothing but have been given wonderful memories and time.

Sure if that's all you want I'll take the farm.

Days and Days

It is never the children who will fight but the people who marry into the families tend to cause problems.

The_Valeyard

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Sure if that's all you want I'll take the farm.

Fine.



Hehehehe, jokes on you, I dont have a farm *giggles like a school girl*

Spanish Eyes

Money talks and bullsh"t walks.

Especially where there is a farm o land and many siblings. OMG.

I know this and it is not pretty. I am an outsider so can see clearly LOL. It's fekkin mad.

There's nothing like death and money to bring out the vultures.

Sometimes there's terrible unfairness though. My aunts best friend looked after her parents for 10 years while they both succumbed to dementia. They left the farm and house to her brother and nothing to her. She spent her savings on the funerals as the brother said he couldn't contribute. He and his wife kicked her out within weeks of their mothers death.

Shint0

My brothers were trained in from a very young age to inherit the land. There was never any question that I would inherit it or that they would pursue other options. It's their livelihood. It's not as if they are going to cash in on it and move to the Bahamas. It's a lifestyle that I don't envy.

Turtyturd

Family currently in the middle of one. Grandmother died and left a clause in her will that the house couldn't be sold until her youngest son had died.....despite the fact she only owned half the property. Solicitors have pretty much laughed at the clause and there were attempts to come to a solution in the beginning but the son is refusing to move out. Nobody talking to each other now, and it's currently in the process of going to court but it's a long slow process.

Chain Smoker

Days and Days wrote: »

It is never the children who will fight but the people who marry into the families tend to cause problems.

Everyone involved likes to blame the in laws like wild in these situations, but it's plenty possible everyone places a value on their contribution which, either fairly or not, is not at all represented by the way things are divided.

I'd say Ireland is worse for it than a lot of places, especially rural Ireland where one son (with a preference for the oldest, often in spite of all logic) will usually get the lot. When you think about how something like a farm can absolutely consume someone's youth slaving away on it, getting absolutely nothing out of it is a raw deal.


I know one old fella who gave everything to the oldest son, who emigrated to new York in the 80s. The other son, who stuck around at home and ran the whole place got nothing.
Regardless of what was going on behind the scenes, the younger son had every right to be furious about it.

Chain Smoker

Shint0 wrote: »

My brothers were trained in from a very young age to inherit the land. There was never any question that I would inherit it or that they would pursue other options. It's their livelihood. It's not as if they are going to cash in on it and move to the Bahamas. It's a lifestyle that I don't envy.

Brothers, plural? I hope they've split clearly outlined now!

The Backwards Man

My oul lad signed all his debt over to me years ago, the bastard.

I'm probably going to have to adopt some poor young wan to sign it over to them.

Muahahaha

Does anyone know what would typically happen these days with farms? Is it still the preserve of the oldest son getting everything or would the son now be expected to sell some land and pay out to the siblings? How does the law treat such situations?

Shint0

Well those type of situations are totally unfair and were rife throughout Ireland. There should be a sweat equity in cases where one individual has remained and contributed to the maintenance and progression of the land where other siblings chose to pursue other options.

Shint0

Chain Smoker wrote: »

Brothers, plural? I hope they've split clearly outlined now!

All taken care of a long time ago.

Nobody is entitled to any part of the parents estate. If they want to leave it all to one kid, there's little anyone can do about it. It would be nice if everyone was fair, but sometimes not breaking up the farm seems to be more important than recognising individual contributions. Certainly daughters were expected to care for parents, but not complain when sons inherited the lions share of the estate in the not distant past.

tomwaterford

Muahahaha wrote: »

Does anyone know what would typically happen these days with farms? Is it still the preserve of the oldest son getting everything or would the son now be expected to sell some land and pay out to the siblings? How does the law treat such situations?

If no will everyone gets equal


In the event of a will it's usually the one who deos the most work/farms it inherits it....with no difference to age/position in family/gender
(As it should be imo)

Usually siblings left cash/right to a site on the farm

Letree

Sometimes siblings just don't like each other and when the parents are gone the deck of cards falls. That's what happened when my granny died. Money was at the heart of it but it could have been sorted if they had wanted too.

JoseWasntReady

My grandparents originally left everything to my uncle. He was single, worked locally making buttons in one of the co-ops and lived with them. They left the house to him in the original will as they wanted to ensure that he had a roof over his head and that he wouldn't go without so they left their few quid to him too.

Few years later and one of my grandparents passed - my uncles circumstances changed substantially by then. He was living with his partner in Kinsale and got a better job. Dude moved up in the world!

Anyway, the deal was then changed to split it and sort it amongst yourselves but the will was never changed so this was never legally ratified.

Then when my other grandparent passed away, a couple of months later my uncle informed my da, my other uncle and aunt that the house was for sale and he was keeping the money because dad (my grandfather) wanted him to have it. It wasn't a huge house or anything, four bedrooms and a bit of land at the back to grow root veggies and whatnot. Not much road frontage! Still fetched around a quarter of a million and they would have picked up a nice five figure sum each.

He pulled a fast one but they more or less said feck it and let it go. He 'kindly' let them anything they wanted from the house before he sold it. My old man took a tiny little ornament lol from the mantle piece and told him thanks very much.

No real tension because of it now, but my uncle is sometimes flash with the cash. Buying loads of rounds etc. The looks I catch my da giving him but he never says anything.

Could have caused ructions but it's only money at the end of the day.

20Cent

To split something between two people have one divide it and the other pick which half they want.

Joe prim

Days and Days wrote: »

It is never the children who will fight but the people who marry into the families tend to cause problems.

Your'e dead right, that's why most rural people in Ireland prefer to marry their siblings, it's a lot less hassle, although the childer tend not to be the most fetching.

Shint0

tomwaterford wrote: »

Though afaik if your living with someone 7 years they have much the same rights as being married??

I thought he was referring to the celibate bachelor type as opposed to co-habiting. There are still a few of those knocking around believe it or not.

Chain Smoker

There's lots of families who push all the songs into doing the work with no plan whatsoever still. I see big disputes between several sets of cousins in the future from this kind of thing.


From a pretty young age I hated farming and was backing out of it as much as a could (by doing other stuff around the place so I wouldn't by default become the person expected to carry it). It still ate up most of my childhood, but I'm happy to get none of it for nothing other than avoiding the pressure of being expected to continue with it.


Basically, my inheritance is having the autonomy to do whatever with my 20s and early 30s. There's definitely a lot of children from farming backgrounds who don't appreciate how much of a privilege that can be in comparison to what the one who gets landed with the land.

Letree

tomwaterford wrote: »

Though afaik if your living with someone 7 years they have much the same rights as being married??

Its 5 without children and 1 or 2 with i think.

Annasopra

tomwaterford wrote: »

Though afaik if your living with someone 7 years they have much the same rights as being married??

Not quite but yeah if a farmer cohabits with someone the cohabiting partner can put in a claim if they break up

Spanish Eyes

A Carefully drafted will is essential, whether you have lots or little.

Cover all avenues, think about it for months before you commit to paper via your solicitor.

Doesn't matter if those left behind are miffed. As long as it is watertight legally, feck them.

Your money, your land, assets whatever, it is totally up to you.

Apart from the legal right share of the spouse, look it up, I am not your slave LOL.

messy tessy

Chain Smoker wrote: »

There's definitely a lot of children from farming backgrounds who don't appreciate how much of a privilege that can be in comparison to what the one who gets landed with the land.

I think if you have grown up on a farm you can't be under any illusions of the time and sheer effort running a farm takes.

Spanish Eyes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not quite but yeah if a farmer cohabits with someone the cohabiting partner can put in a claim if they break up

Are you sure about that? I'd be interested to know where you found that out! Honestly.

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Are you sure about that? I'd be interested to know where you found that out! Honestly.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/livein-partners-have-rights-new-court-ruling-says-26304026.html


Common law marraige

Spanish Eyes

A lot of farms have been passed on to the under 35s to benefit from the Stamp Duty and Gift tax things, along with a pension for the Dad.

I know there are rules and regs, but many have done it. And those who haven't are mad IMO.

I think it's shocking that people assume they are getting everything their parents leave behind.
In fact, a lot of people don't just assume, they think they are entitled to it!!!
It's your parents money, no one else is entitled to it.

I hope my mam spends every single penny on herself before she dies & doesn't leave anything.
I'll gladly pay for her funeral.
It's her money/ Assets, she earned them, she should enjoy them.

Chain Smoker

jim_jimmy wrote: »

know what you mean , farmers ( in many cases ) are an incredibly selfish bunch , not only are they completely and utterly focused on the farm , they force their kids ( usually sons ) to devote a large amount of time to the farm , a very sizeable number of farmers sons were forced to become farmers themselves

It's not selfishness really, more a circle of institutionalisation. They aren't exposed to anything else until they get to a point that it's impossible to even consider anything else, they're fully committed to that mindset by the time they've their own kids.

It can be an okay lifestyle if you've got everything in order and enough resources at your disposal, but even still it can very abruptly become relentlessly stressful through no fault of your own. I can't imagine anyone choosing to go into it.

messy tessy wrote: »

I think if you have grown up on a farm you can't be under any illusions of the time and sheer effort running a farm takes.

I know, but once the will comes around and they get nothing, they'll start remembering the summers slaving away in a field while their friends went to Disney World. In most cases, I think the people who got out are happy, but if they're not that happy with their lives they've got themselves plenty of food for resentment right there.

Annasopra

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Are you sure about that? I'd be interested to know where you found that out! Honestly.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/redress_scheme_for_cohabiting_couples.html

Spanish Eyes

tomwaterford wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/livein-partners-have-rights-new-court-ruling-says-26304026.html


Common law marraige

I think that had more to do with non marital children than anything else. Not having a go, but realistically, if co habitants could get the same benefits as a married person, in all honesty, why would anyone marry?

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think that had more to do with non marital children than anything else. Not having a go, but realistically, if co habitants could get the same benefits as a married person, in all honesty, why would anyone marry?

This is a question what baffles me tbh....even the time of the ssm thing,why?



But I guess if it's what people want let them away their doing no harm

Del2005

Consuelano wrote: »

I read an article in the Journal containing stories from people whose families were torn apart due to wills and inheritances and I found it fascinating.

[Can't post link]

I'm lucky in that both my parents are still alive and well, and AFAIK everything is to be divided equally between myself and my sibling, so there shouldn't really be a problem. Yet, the amount of stories I heard from friends and colleagues down through the years of huge falling-outs is staggering and in some ways frightening. Is it a uniquely Irish thing, or is it the greedy part of human nature coming out?

I think most people have a story or two that they've experienced, witnessed or heard. So people of AH, where there's a will, is there a way?

It's not uniquely Irish. Families falling out over inheritance happens in every country in the world.

Spanish Eyes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/redress_scheme_for_cohabiting_couples.html

Thank you. That is something that went above my radar. But there are some strict restrictions.

Still.... it only refers to a "financially dependent" co habitant.

Divorce does not.

A minefield all the same.

josip

bubblypop wrote: »

I think it's shocking that people assume they are getting everything their parents leave behind.
In fact, a lot of people don't just assume, they think they are entitled to it!!!
It's your parents money, no one else is entitled to it.

I hope my mam spends every single penny on herself before she dies & doesn't leave anything.
I'll gladly pay for her funeral.
It's her money/ Assets, she earned them, she should enjoy them.

Valid point, but in the case of farms, very often farmers use their sons and daughters as a cheap form of labour to keep it running.
It's only reasonable to expect something in return for doing all that.

foxy farmer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

A lot of farms have been passed on to the under 35s to benefit from the Stamp Duty and Gift tax things, along with a pension for the Dad.

I know there are rules and regs, but many have done it. And those who haven't are mad IMO.

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

12Phase

Definitely not a uniquely Irish thing. There are plenty of novels, plays, films etc that feature people falling out over wills.

tomwaterford

foxy farmer wrote: »

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

In fairness the fathers 70 years old he should be long retired
Let the son make mistakes....what good is the farm to him at 40



The grandfather and father here both retired when the next in line was old enough to take over....

as you look around the country ould lads in their 80s hanging on for dear life with sons into their 50s who are gone too old to really drive it on/work the long hard hours to build it up/improve it the way they want to

Spanish Eyes

foxy farmer wrote: »

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

I have seen it myself from the outside, and it is not pretty.

Unfortunately it makes family members take sides,

A total clusterf IMO.

But still, an elderly farmer cannot run things forever. But they think they can and still do forever and a day.

Difficult for the younger farmer who takes over for sure. They are still under the thumb. It is difficult to say the least.

josip

josip wrote: »

Valid point, but in the case of farms, very often farmers use their sons and daughters as a cheap form of labour to keep it running.
It's only reasonable to expect something in return for doing all that.

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Can't understand how people can tear each other asunder over something so stupid like land or money.

I have one sibling, been through this twice. Land/property/machinery etc.
Myself and my sibling would kill each other, but we do take care of each other too.
There's been no issue with anything there, we are literally all we have left. We've lost everyone else and I'm sure both of us would give it all up for our family back.

I can't understand how people, right after losing one person, would be happy to lose more over stupid stuff.

Spanish Eyes

There is a lot to be said for veteran farmers passing on their knowledge and so on. That is ok if done in a good way.

What about if is done in a not so nice way? I have seen it.

Anyway, things are very different now "Down on the Farm" aren't they?

Maybe the old timers or previous owners cannot get their heads around that? Understandable really, but what can the current owner do, with all that old time stuff in their face? I have seen this. So do not give out to me please!

Spanish Eyes

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Can't understand how people can tear each other asunder over something so stupid like land or money.

I have one sibling, been through this twice. Land/property/machinery etc.
Myself and my sibling would kill each other, but we do take care of each other too.
There's been no issue with anything there, we are literally all we have left. We've lost everyone else and I'm sure both of us would give it all up for our family back.

I can't understand how people, right after losing one person, would be happy to lose more over stupid stuff.

Two words... "The Field".

Not saying that happened for you or your sib, but it remains true for many.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Two words... "The Field".

Not saying that happened for you or your sib, but it rem
ains true for many.

I know. It's just sad. Like me and him would elbow each other out of the way crossing a room. But neither him or me were bothered ripping into each other over land. I know it happens, I just can't for the live of me understand how that could be such a concern after burying someone so important.

Del2005

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

Problems arise when parents tell a son/daughter one thing but have something completely different in the will.

Chain Smoker

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

A farm isn't really an asset like a house or a car or something, it can be a person's whole livelihood. If you don't understand that much you shouldn't really be talking about the matter tbh.
If the parents decided they were going to be a farmer (either intentionally or through not developing any kind of proper plan and availing of the free labour), that child is plenty entitled to something.

As for making a choice as an adult, if one of the parents is unwell, that child is gonna be expected to step in and keep things running temporarily.
They've already invested years into the thing too, that's gonna sway your decision making process a lot.

josip

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)

Where I grew up, most of the farmers sons were contributing from the age of 7. Bring the cows out from milking on the way to school, blocking roads when moving cattle, marking dipped sheep, ...
By the time they were no longer legally dependents (18), most local farmers had gotten 10 good years of work out of their sons and sometimes daughters.
Often farm work took priority over school homework. Some of the luckier ones had tough mothers who wouldn't tolerate that. But I've often heard farmers sons explain that they hadn't homework done because the silage had to be cut or it was lambing season.
When they finished the Leaving Cert, Ag College would have been paid for them by their fathers.
But for some of them, if they had notions about a fancy degree, they had to put themselves through college.