Guardiola's Legacy at Bayern

derm0j073

bucketybuck wrote: »

...nobody said that he wasn't allowed to be adaptable enough to change his own style to better suit the great squad he inherited.

This I believe was his biggest mistake, he forced too many changes too soon at BM. Pep has his own philosophy and that's cool but not taking advantage of the great work Heynckes put in seems a little naive.

jive

It was definitely a failure regardless of how anyone sugar coats it. He was brought in to win a CL and never made a final. With the exception of Juve he never beat any of the top clubs in the CL over 3 years. Domestic form doesn't count for much when he has effectively been in a one horse town where breaking records is a more realistic goal than simply winning the league which they do at a canter every year.

2013/2014: Arsenal, United
2014/2015: Shakhtar, Porto
2015/2016: Juve, Benfica

Hammered by Real and Barca. Pipped by AM last night. He inherited the best team in Europe at the time and so you can hardly say he has made them progress; he certainly hasn't done much damage but any decent manager could have replicated what he has done.

Mantis Toboggan

Unearthly wrote: »

Wouldn't call it failure.

Just goes to show how hard it is to win the competition and shows how great his Barca team was.

Enrique's Barcelona team are better

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

He won the World Cup for Germany, surely that's enough?

And we should never forget that

Boskowski wrote: »

I think he did an OK job. He brought a new style to Bayern, he attracted greatly talented players to the team and he is likely to win 3 leagues during his tenure although this years title is not completely wrapped up just yet. But nearly.

Bayern have always attracted great players.
They have definitely attracted the best in Germany.
If you care to look back at their history and look at their list of captains.
It is a whose who of German world cup winners.

They are one of the biggest supported clubs in Germany, half a massive new stadium and look at the corporations that own a chunk of them: Adidas, Allianz and Audi.
Then look at their sponsorship and partnership deals.
They have deals with some leading multinationals: Deutsche Telekom, Adidas, Audi, Lufthansa, MAN, Samsung, DHL.

Guardiola took over a Bayern side that had landed Lewandowski, who some would have said was the best forward in the Bundesliga.
And he arrived from Bayern's biggest competitor in the league.

And if he leaves they will probably raid Dormund again for the leagues second highest scorer this year, Aubameyang.

Listening to some of the rhetoric around here one would have thought Bayern were some backwater team in disarray when Guardiola took over.

They were reigning CL and Bundesliga holders.
They had won the Bundesliga title 6 times in the 10 years before he arrived.
Wipee he has won three in a row.

They won three in a row between 98 and 2000 and between 71 and 73.
Oh and they managed three in a row European Cups between 73 and 75.

It will be very interesting to see how he does at City.
He is inheriting a club that is a bit of a mess, have only a few really good players and who play in a much more competitive league.
I think if he wins a PL that will be it.
Then off to PSG.

Boskowski wrote: »

But he's a great coach even yesterday I was impressed what with no tiki taka at all, kitchen sink from the first minute. He's not that dogmatic that he would be unable to adapt to a situation.

Actually I was surprised by the way they played last night.
Hell at one stage I thought he had taken notes from Wimbledon with the amount of long balls being hoisted towards the box.

Johner

He did fine, nothing amazing but not a failure.

Unearthly

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Enrique's Barcelona team are better

They have a bit more to prove yet before that can be said imo. They might miss out on the league to as well as an early CL elimination

Lucas Hood

He done a decent job nothing more .
You'd expect more considering how good they were before he took over. I think he leaves them worse off than when he took over .

ERG89

Done the minimum domestically. His biggest threat (Dortmund) was a team that have been raided a lot in his tenure especially by Bayern. Never understood why he requested they buy Gotze.
Thought his decision to play Alaba at centre back & play Martinez there was a waste of their talents, never got the fact he moved Lahm into midfield & had a shít replacement in Rafinha at rb. Too many questions over his time there.

King_of_Kingz

I don't subscribe to the fact they are any worse than when he took over, he completely changed how they played the game during his time at the club while maintaining the minimum expectations of a league title win and a good European Cup run.

People forget that he has had to deal with changing plenty of personnel in his time there, when Heynckes was in charge you had Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Robben, Ribery all in their prime while the likes of Kroos, Mandzukic and Mario Gomez were enjoying the best time of their careers.

Of all those players only Lahm is still playing to a strong level.

If Ancelotti comes in next season and wins the Champions League while coasting to another domestic double, then it will be easier to suggest some shortcomings. Then again they've actually decided to sign a defender this year in Hummels instead of doing a Barcelona and hoping Javi Martinez can do a job at CB.

I don't think his time there has been helped by clashes with Hoeness & Co. They put out a lot of negative media regarding him and his techniques.

jmayo

Actually looking at Bayern, they are reaching a stage where they will have to replace some of the stalwarts that have brought them success over the last 5/6 years.
Alonso is now 34, Ribery is 33, Robben is 32, Lahm is 32.
These players are no longer the players they once were and can't be relied upon to bring success over the coming years.

The more I see of all the massive big clubs, the more I want to see them beat.
Old Rummenigge is whinging about the ref last night.

Funny I don't think he complained when Morata's Juve goal was ruled offsite. :rolleyes:

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He won the World Cup for Germany, surely that's enough?

Hey friend, do you follow German football? Do you follow the German national team? Are you aware of the fundamental changes Germany made to how it develops it's players? Have you followed Pep's career extensively? Have you read anything of any merit relating to any of those 4 topics? Are you in any kind of position to speak with any kind of authority on any of those topics? If not, should you really be commenting on any of those? Especially making little sly digs at a poster whose knowledge of the topic is significantly more vast than yours, moreso when that poster has even backed up his argument with quotes from those central to German football's turnaround like Löw, Klinsmann, Sammer ect. Should you feel foolish after reading this post? You're God damn right.

jmayo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Hey friend, do you follow German football? Do you follow the German national team? Are you aware of the fundamental changes Germany made to how it develops it's players? Have you followed Pep's career extensively? Have you read anything of any merit relating to any of those 4 topics? Are you in any kind of position to speak with any kind of authority on any of those topics? If not, should you really be commenting on any of those? Especially making little sly digs at a poster whose knowledge of the topic is significantly more vast than yours, moreso when that poster has even backed up his argument with quotes from those central to German football's turnaround like Löw, Klinsmann, Sammer ect. Should you feel foolish after reading this post? You're God damn right.

My mother always told me "no one likes someone that blows their own trumpet."
You sir seem to have a complete brass section.

This is a discussion forum last time I checked and everyone is allowed an opinion.
And just like the old adage everyone has one just like everyone has an ...

I guess some are a little hurt that their hero didn't deliver once again last night.
Oh and there is another adage ... If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen then ...

cowboyBuilder

Oh yes, I forgot Ancelotti is taking over in the summer, will be interesting to see what he can do at Bayern.

redzerdrog

Judging by the standards set in this thread Fergie must have been a disappointment

Dirty Dingus McGee

eagle eye wrote: »

How many Bayern Munich managers have won three Bundesliga titles in a row?
How many times have they won four league titles in a row?

How many managers get to the Champion's league final with every club they go to within three years?

How many managers make the semi-final of the Champion's league every year?

I think Pep is held to a much higher standard that every other manager which is not his fault. Well maybe it is because he just happened to be the manager of probably the greatest side in football in my lifetime.

He has done a fine job at Bayern, if he stayed there a couple of more years I'm pretty confident he would have won a Champion's league but three years is a very small window to come in with a new football philosophy and go and win the Champion's league.

The media set him up as the greatest manager of the modern era because of that Barcelona team and now they are looking to take him down. He won't get long at City to do his thing either.

I'm not a fan of the man but I loved everything about that Barcelona team. If you don't have a prime Xavi Hernandez you can't do what he did there though.

Anyways I just feel he did very well at Bayern and I'm not going to ever think you have to win the Champion's league to have done a great job. As mentioned already in this thread his Munich lost to Real Madrid who went on to win it two years ago and then to Barcelona who went on to win it last season. Nothing wrong with losing out to the other two powerhouses of European football.

Atletico this year proved that there is a weakness to exploit in the way he sets up his teams just like Mourinho's Inter did a couple of years back to the great Barcelona team.

Bayern have won 3 in a row 3 time before Guardiola got there so he hasn't achieved anything unique


That's kind of the problem with what he did.He wanted Bayern to win because of him more than he wanted Bayern to win.Why not just slightly tweak things but in the main carry on as before.To me he seemed to be trying to be too clever for his own good at times and far too much rotation of players positions etc within the game , he has top class player why not just play to ther already established strengths than trying to change them too much which is what he seemed to do.He wasted Lahm in midfield for ages, he had David Alaba as a centre back at times etc etc.

CSF

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Steamrolling the league 3 years in a row is impressive tbf, even with such an expensive squad. It's easy to say a team should be winning it every year, but it often takes a quality manager to make it happen. Be interesting to see if Ancellotti can replicate that.

Shows the weight of expectation on him that 3 CL semi finals in a row is considered a failure, though the manner of defeat (conceding 5 goals in both ties) to Barca and Real the previous 2 years probably doesn't help. Both teams went on to win the trophy and it may well happen with Atletico again.

Overall I'd say he did a good job, not a great job.

This.

CSF

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Enrique's Barcelona team are better

Hard to agree. They have a better front 3, the overall unit in Guardiola's Barca felt almost unstoppable. Of course Mourinho's Inter did eventually stop them, but they were so good that you never felt they could until they did, and there was a large element of luck there IMO. This Barca side had obvious vulnerabilities (balanced out by enormous strengths of course) that Atletico were able to take advantage of and go through without being particularly lucky on the balance of things.

Dirty Dingus McGee

CSF wrote: »

Hard to agree. They have a better front 3, the overall unit in Guardiola's Barca felt almost unstoppable. Of course Mourinho's Inter did eventually stop them, but they were so good that you never felt they could until they did, and there was a large element of luck there IMO. This Barca side had obvious vulnerabilities (balanced out by enormous strengths of course) that Atletico were able to take advantage of and go through without being particularly lucky on the balance of things.

But Barca wouldn't have won their first champions league without an extremely dodgy refereeing performance, so it balanced out in the end.

CSF

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

But Barca wouldn't have won their first champions league without an extremely dodgy refereeing performance, so it balanced out in the end.

That's true. I wasn't really talking about refereeing in the Inter game but that was also a thing. I moreso meant that I remember at the end of the game being stunned that Barca hadnt won it with the way it went.

The thing with the Champions League is that even the best teams in the world have off nights, and when the success or failure of your tenure at a club is judged on winning it, those off nights can be so costly.

UnitedIrishman

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are you not basically saying that this season alone he spent double that of Bayerns nearest rival despite already having by far the strongest squad in the league?

In his time at Bayern in total he's spent around €50m more than Dortmund. Last year Dortmund outspent Bayern. I was responding to the fact that they have a far bigger budget but €50m (taking into account sales) more over 3 years in transfers isn't an exorbitant amount to spend when taking into account they won three league titles.

Now the wage bill will show a fair difference but that difference was there before Guardiola arrived too.

Gringo180

Should be in the final of the Champs Lge to be honest. Griezmanns goal last night was at least half a yard offside. Just didnt get the luck other managers have had in Europe with Bayern. The best coach in world football imo.

Lukker-

3/10 would not bang

Oat23

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair apart from this season he hasn't spent that much when he was there to maintain it. Less than a €100m when you take into account sales of players, Dortmund have spent around €50m during the same period with the same parameters involved so it's not as if he's torched a massive amount of money.

Easy to say any manager would do it but it's not always the case.

I was talking about the overall club budget, not just transfers.

Bayern's club budget has seen an increase of 45% since 2011. Dortmund's rise under Klopp and the back-to-back titles they won forced Bayern to spend, and they have taken it to a whole new level. Bayern have always spent more, but never like they have the past 5 years.

He attracted a higher calibre of player to Munich. I'll give him that.

The league has become much weaker over the past few years also, making it easier to dominate. The clubs that have the market and potential to challenge in the top 4 & Europe (Bremen, Stuttgart, HSV etc..) are struggling and their places have been taken by small budget overachievers like Mainz and Augsburg.

Look at Hertha. They finished a point above the relegation spots last season and were in the top 4 most of this one. That is the kind of league it is now below Bayern & Dortmund. They can dominate the rest.

People are also comparing Pep to former Bayern coaches, which isn't fair given the reasons I have pointed out above. He has had so much more to work with and a weaker league to beat.

Skylinehead

Gringo180 wrote: »

Should be in the final of the Champs Lge to be honest. Griezmanns goal last night was at least half a yard offside. Just didnt get the luck other managers have had in Europe with Bayern. The best coach in world football imo.

Griezmann was clearly onside.

https://streamable.com/5iqn

Perfectly timed run.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Hey friend, do you follow German football? Do you follow the German national team? Are you aware of the fundamental changes Germany made to how it develops it's players? Have you followed Pep's career extensively? Have you read anything of any merit relating to any of those 4 topics? Are you in any kind of position to speak with any kind of authority on any of those topics? If not, should you really be commenting on any of those? Especially making little sly digs at a poster whose knowledge of the topic is significantly more vast than yours, moreso when that poster has even backed up his argument with quotes from those central to German football's turnaround like Löw, Klinsmann, Sammer ect. Should you feel foolish after reading this post? You're God damn right.

Germany had the wheels in motion before Pep. They saw something was wrong long before he arrived with how they developed players.

There is no doubt he has influence over the German national team and how they play, or have played over the last couple of years. This is mainly because Lahm, Boateng, Neuer, Kroos, Gotze, Muller - essentially the spine of the team at some point over the last 3 years - have all been coached by Pep at Bayern.

But in terms of just how much credit he can take? I don't know. He probably wouldn't take any if you asked him tbh. They won the World Cup a year after he arrived at Bayern, so I don't know how much influence he could've had really.

I'm sure coaching techniques have been borrowed from him, and players who are impressed with his methods have shared those with the national setup, but the German renaissance is a decade in the making, not 3 years.

I mean, with all these Tottenham lads breaking into the England team, that is going to have an influence on the England team (as seen v Germany). Hence, I'm sure Pochettino is having an influence.

I'm sure you'll admit, there are a lot of things that have changed the German setup...Pep's influence is relatively low on the list.

Flint Fredstone

Is someone actually trying to give Pep the credit for Germany's World Cup win?

chopperbyrne

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Is someone actually trying to give Pep the credit for Germany's World Cup win?

Yes.

Yes, someone is.

jmayo

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Is someone actually trying to give Pep the credit for Germany's World Cup win?

I am going to now put a bet on England for the 2018 World Cup as undoubtedly Guardiola's influence at City will have well carried over to the national team by then.

rob316

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Is someone actually trying to give Pep the credit for Germany's World Cup win?

In fairness I have seen articles before on the same but I think its more coincidental than anything. Spain were the best side when Pep was at Barcelona and then Germany are as Pep is at Bayern.

Germany have always been great on the international stage though so I don't buy it, plus Germany won euro 2012 before Pep even got to Bayern. The winner of that competition is generally my favourite to win the WC.

GLaDOS

rob316 wrote: »

plus Germany won euro 2012 before Pep even got to Bayern.

Might wanna check your facts there :pac:

Skylinehead

rob316 wrote: »

In fairness I have seen articles before on the same but I think its more coincidental than anything. Spain were the best side when Pep was at Barcelona and then Germany are as Pep is at Bayern.

Germany have always been great on the international stage though so I don't buy it, plus Germany won euro 2012 before Pep even got to Bayern. The winner of that competition is generally my favourite to win the WC.

Spain won Euro 2012

Unearthly

Germany revamped their football academy around 2000 I think.

You could see Pep's influence on Spain but Germany's style was consistent from 2006

~Rebel~

Unearthly wrote: »

Germany revamped their football academy around 2000 I think.

You could see Pep's influence on Spain but Germany's style was consistent from 2006

Yup, what is happening in their team now could easily be seen in the young 2010 team that battered Argentina.

Corholio

He won't be seen as a failure, having won 3 German titles, but I think in Europe they went backwards a bit. Munich would have seen in Heynckes last season a chance to build on his success, not come in change it all around and still have the same platform his team created. Some of Pep's decisions in the semi-finals, dropping Muller and playing Alaba centre back, have to be questioned. Both turned out to be quite costly. For all of Bayern's dominance, when they were put under pressure the centre of defence looked very susceptible. Torres and Griezmann will hardly create an easier goal between them this season. In footballing terms he will have enriched the league with what he has brought but he he knew, and has admitted as much, that he wouldn't live up to the expectation if he didn't win the Champions League.

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Hey friend, do you follow German football? Do you follow the German national team? Are you aware of the fundamental changes Germany made to how it develops it's players? Have you followed Pep's career extensively? Have you read anything of any merit relating to any of those 4 topics? Are you in any kind of position to speak with any kind of authority on any of those topics? If not, should you really be commenting on any of those? Especially making little sly digs at a poster whose knowledge of the topic is significantly more vast than yours, moreso when that poster has even backed up his argument with quotes from those central to German football's turnaround like Löw, Klinsmann, Sammer ect. Should you feel foolish after reading this post? You're God damn right.

In South Africa in 2010 the most talked about team of the future was Germany. A lot of knowledgeable posters on here and a lot of respected media pundits predicted they would win the World Cup four years later.

This was long before Pep Guardiola was involved in any way with them. They had the same coach in 2010 as they had in 2014.

Some of their best players were at the 2010 World Cup as youngsters. Most of that team was in place before Pep Guardiola got to Germany. He doesn't deserve any credit for Germany winning the World Cup. It's just coincidental that he was managing the club that had a number of German internationals.

jmayo

Unearthly wrote: »

Germany revamped their football academy around 2000 I think.

You could see Pep's influence on Spain but Germany's style was consistent from 2006

At 2000 Euros Germany finished last in the group (Portugal, Romania and England) and decided to change things.

The DFB, the Bundesliga and the clubs decided to try develop more technically proficient homegrown players.
This led to the creation of academies in top two divisions.

AFAIK since 2003 even the 1000 odd part time coaches looking after 8-14 year olds must hold a UEFA coaching B license.

In 2012 according to UEFA Germany had 28,400 (England 1,759) coaches with the B licence, 5,500 (895) with the A licence and 1,070 (115) with the Pro licence.

And if you look at the team that won 2014 WC you can see most of them had been around since WC 2010 which had lost to Spain 1-0 and would lose to Italy 2-1 in Euros 2012.

Neuer, Ozil, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Podolski, Klose, Mertesacker, Boateng, Khedira, Müller, Kroos had all been at 2010 WC.

Hummels, Götze had been at 2012 Euros.

The WC team was in the making for 2 tournaments before 2014 WC.

26 of players involved in the 2013 CL final between Bayern and Dortmund were homegrown.
The seeds for German's world cup win were set long before Pep reached Munich or indeed managed Barca.

Rezident

Oat23 wrote: »

If the board were happy with a league & cup every year, they could have saved themselves €14m and hired any other Bundesliga manager. Because any manager in the league would win the title with Bayern and their €230m budget.

They wanted CL titles, which is why they hired him and paid him €16m per year. He has not won a CL title, so he has failed to achieve what he was hired to do.

Maybe he was hired to do his job, in his way, and he has done it. Not everyone views football with a winner-takes-all-and-everyone-else-is-a-loser attitude, thankfully. Boards of directors are generally more informed and even-handed than tabloid writers.

Pep had Bayern playing pretty impressive attacking football last night (and most of the last few years) against the best defence I have ever even heard of. They even scored twice and should have had a third against that defence.

The 'Champions League' is not even a league but a knockout competition, so the best team doesn't always win. Neither of the two best footballing teams will even be in the final this year. I am sure that the Bayern board know this.

Richard Hillman

Rezident wrote: »

Maybe he was hired to do his job, in his way, and he has done it. Not everyone views football with a winner-takes-all-and-everyone-else-is-a-loser attitude, thankfully. Boards of directors are generally more informed and even-handed than tabloid writers.

Pep had Bayern playing pretty impressive attacking football last night (and most of the last few years) against the best defence I have ever even heard of. They even scored twice and should have had a third against that defence.

The 'Champions League' is not even a league but a knockout competition, so the best team doesn't always win. Neither of the two best footballing teams will even be in the final this year. I am sure that the Bayern board know this.

Yes but 2 of the semi-final knockouts (Both Madrids) were due to teams having a clear game-plan that clearly counteracted the style of play of how he had his team playing.

Passing a team into submission is now a thing of the past. If Guardiola doesnt recognise this to himself, it wont be long until he will be known as "Yesterday's Man".

If he gets Man City playing like Bayern, that Leicester team will have a field day against them (assuming they stick together and perform similarly). Jamie Vardy and co will be jizzing themselves seeing a spread out defense pinging the ball left and right, with a make-shift centreback. They will wait until somebody loses the ball and will shoot up the middle.

I hope they play each other on the opening couple of weeks of the season.

rob316

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Might wanna check your facts there :pac:

Jaysus my head is gone. Anyway point stands they already looked like the next big force in that tournament long before pep rocked up at bayern.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Germany had the wheels in motion before Pep. They saw something was wrong long before he arrived with how they developed players.

There is no doubt he has influence over the German national team and how they play, or have played over the last couple of years. This is mainly because Lahm, Boateng, Neuer, Kroos, Gotze, Muller - essentially the spine of the team at some point over the last 3 years - have all been coached by Pep at Bayern.

But in terms of just how much credit he can take? I don't know. He probably wouldn't take any if you asked him tbh. They won the World Cup a year after he arrived at Bayern, so I don't know how much influence he could've had really.

I'm sure coaching techniques have been borrowed from him, and players who are impressed with his methods have shared those with the national setup, but the German renaissance is a decade in the making, not 3 years.

I mean, with all these Tottenham lads breaking into the England team, that is going to have an influence on the England team (as seen v Germany). Hence, I'm sure Pochettino is having an influence.

I'm sure you'll admit, there are a lot of things that have changed the German setup...Pep's influence is relatively low on the list.

As I've said before, I've never claimed Pep has some massive responsibility for the current state of the German team, I've said he is merely one of many factors. No quote you'll find from me will contradict that. However certain posters have blown this reasonable, proven, argument, completely out of proportion.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Germany had the wheels in motion before Pep. They saw something was wrong long before he arrived with how they developed players.

There is no doubt he has influence over the German national team and how they play, or have played over the last couple of years. This is mainly because Lahm, Boateng, Neuer, Kroos, Gotze, Muller - essentially the spine of the team at some point over the last 3 years - have all been coached by Pep at Bayern.

But in terms of just how much credit he can take? I don't know. He probably wouldn't take any if you asked him tbh. They won the World Cup a year after he arrived at Bayern, so I don't know how much influence he could've had really.

I'm sure coaching techniques have been borrowed from him, and players who are impressed with his methods have shared those with the national setup, but the German renaissance is a decade in the making, not 3 years.

I mean, with all these Tottenham lads breaking into the England team, that is going to have an influence on the England team (as seen v Germany). Hence, I'm sure Pochettino is having an influence.

I'm sure you'll admit, there are a lot of things that have changed the German setup...Pep's influence is relatively low on the list.

As I've said before, I've never claimed Pep has some massive responsibility for the current state of the German team, I've said he is merely one of many factors. No quote you'll find from me will contradict that. However certain posters have blown this reasonable, proven, argument, completely out of proportion.

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

In South Africa in 2010 the most talked about team of the future was Germany. A lot of knowledgeable posters on here and a lot of respected media pundits predicted they would win the World Cup four years later.

This was long before Pep Guardiola was involved in any way with them. They had the same coach in 2010 as they had in 2014.

Some of their best players were at the 2010 World Cup as youngsters. Most of that team was in place before Pep Guardiola got to Germany. He doesn't deserve any credit for Germany winning the World Cup. It's just coincidental that he was managing the club that had a number of German internationals.

Overlook the work Pep had done in Spain at that stage all you want and the influence that had already had on football. You've also conveniently left our the massive shift in that German side from counter attacking team in 2010 to a possession based side in 2014 but whatever....

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Overlook the work Pep had done in Spain at that stage all you want and the influence that had already had on football. You've also conveniently left our the massive shift in that German side from counter attacking team in 2010 to a possession based side in 2014 but whatever....

You obviously didn't watch Euro 2012 as Germany had a possession based system in place already by then. In the semi-final Italy beat them with Balotelli scoring two excellent goals on the counter-attack.

Guardiola arrived in Germany 12 months later so don't bother trying to make us believe he had anything to do with that.

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Overlook the work Pep had done in Spain at that stage all you want and the influence that had already had on football. You've also conveniently left our the massive shift in that German side from counter attacking team in 2010 to a possession based side in 2014 but whatever....

Hadn't Spain already won the first of their '3 in a row' at Euro 2008 by time Pep took over Barcelona?

TheDoc

I think its always worth remembering that Bayern have one only one CL in 15 years.

I think he has done a pretty good job, completely dominating the domestic scene and creating a pretty good side. They have been unlucky with the timing of injuries on a couple of occasions. I think the somewhat unpredictable nature of knockout european football over two legs, is harsh to ridicule Pep for. I think it must be tough having rarely to no competition through the season, to then turn it on and deal with competitive opponents at the tail end of the season.

While clearly true he has landed a bit on his feet in terms of playing staff at Bayern and Barca, I think he will do well at City, and its by far his toughest job so far. He is a quality coach, he is a world class coach.

Too many extremes when it comes to Pep opinion. It's OK to be bitter about it, but you cannot simply disregard his entire CV cause you feel he hasn't being challenged.

ahnowbrowncow

TheDoc wrote: »

I think its always worth remembering that Bayern have one only one CL in 15 years.

I think he has done a pretty good job, completely dominating the domestic scene and creating a pretty good side. They have been unlucky with the timing of injuries on a couple of occasions. I think the somewhat unpredictable nature of knockout european football over two legs, is harsh to ridicule Pep for. I think it must be tough having rarely to no competition through the season, to then turn it on and deal with competitive opponents at the tail end of the season.

While clearly true he has landed a bit on his feet in terms of playing staff at Bayern and Barca, I think he will do well at City, and its by far his toughest job so far. He is a quality coach, he is a world class coach.

Too many extremes when it comes to Pep opinion. It's OK to be bitter about it, but you cannot simply disregard his entire CV cause you feel he hasn't being challenged.

No they had 2 wins in 13 seasons, they had been in 3 of the previous 4 champion's league finals and were reigning champions when the took over. He has failed to get to a final in his 3 years. It's clearly a decline in their champions league fortunes.

jmayo

TheDoc wrote: »

I think its always worth remembering that Bayern have one only one CL in 15 years.

I think he has done a pretty good job, completely dominating the domestic scene and creating a pretty good side. They have been unlucky with the timing of injuries on a couple of occasions. I think the somewhat unpredictable nature of knockout european football over two legs, is harsh to ridicule Pep for. I think it must be tough having rarely to no competition through the season, to then turn it on and deal with competitive opponents at the tail end of the season.

While clearly true he has landed a bit on his feet in terms of playing staff at Bayern and Barca, I think he will do well at City, and its by far his toughest job so far. He is a quality coach, he is a world class coach.
...

"landed a BIT on his feet in terms of playing staff" has to be undersatement of the year.

He landed probably the greatest player of his generation plus some of Spain's finest ever players at Barca and he landed the best squad in Germany and one of the best in Europe in Bayern.

I think his greatest achievement has been in getting very talented players to work their socks off continously.

It really makes me wonder how he got on with Stoichkov.

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

You obviously didn't watch Euro 2012 as Germany had a possession based system in place already by then. In the semi-final Italy beat them with Balotelli scoring two excellent goals on the counter-attack.

Guardiola arrived in Germany 12 months later so don't bother trying to make us believe he had anything to do with that.

I was referring to Guardiola's impact on football as a whole (specifically Germany's national team) while he was both coach at Barcelona and then 12 months at Bayern Munich, but I'm sure you knew that but anything for an argument eh?

I mean Eagle Eye was obviously far more involved with the process and is clearly more in tune with the finer points of the German national team over the last 8-10 years than Klinsmann, Löw and Sammer so I don't know why I'm even questioning you.

Andersonisgod

kfallon wrote: »

Hadn't Spain already won the first of their '3 in a row' at Euro 2008 by time Pep took over Barcelona?

They had. What that has to do with the point I made I'm not quote sure though. If you want to look at Spain's shift in football philosophy and success during the course of those 8 years I'd refer you to Graham Hunter's excellent book on Spain's transformation and success.

MD1990

I think Guardiola is an excellent coach. But I think the reason why some get so against him is that his work at Barca was being proclaimed as changing football forever & being already the best manager of all time.

He done a great job at Barca but had some once in a generation players all playing in the same team, Messi,Iniesta & Xavi. Also had more players who had already won the CL as well Valdes, Puyol & Eto's for example. At Bayern he has just done ok considering he was heralded as the best manager in the world you would expect him to win a CL in the 3 years he was coach.