Guardiola's Legacy at Bayern

CSF

There's another way to look at the measure of Guardiola's success at Bayern. In the 10 years before Guardiola took over, Bayern only won the Bundesliga 5 times, a 50% success rate. During Pep's time they've managed 3 titles without ever really looking like not winning one.

Obviously they were tremendous with Heynckes the year before and tore all asunder but the 2 years previous they did not win anything, so it's not as if Bayern winning trophies has just been a given.

If you compare Guardiola at Bayern to Heynckes that year, then he comes off looking badly, but that seems like an awfully high standard to judge against, I mean Heynckes went through 2 trophyless seasons before that season.

jmayo

CSF wrote: »

There's another way to look at the measure of Guardiola's success at Bayern. In the 10 years before Guardiola took over, Bayern only won the Bundesliga 5 times, a 50% success rate. During Pep's time they've managed 3 titles without ever really looking like not winning one.

Obviously they were tremendous with Heynckes the year before and tore all asunder but the 2 years previous they did not win anything, so it's not as if Bayern winning trophies has just been a given.

If you compare Guardiola at Bayern to Heynckes that year, then he comes off looking badly, but that seems like an awfully high standard to judge against, I mean Heynckes went through 2 trophyless seasons before that season.

You are forgetting that Bayern bought one of the their biggest rivals best players Mario Gotze the year he arrived.
That helped Bayern and hindered Dortmund.

Then to compund it the year after they landed their leading goalscorer and the leagues leading scorer from their rivals.

It would be akin to Arsenal selling Bergkamp and then letting Henry go for free to United around 2002/2003.

It is a dammn sight easier to beat your primary opposition when you keep taking their best players.

Take out Dortmund and the league doesn't look quiet so good over the last 5/6 years.

Oh and Heynckes had gotten them to the CL Final in Munich that they lost to Chelsea the year before he won the treble.
The year before he had inherited Van Gaals problems.

BTW even through those years (2010-2012) where they weren't winning or dominating the league they played in 2 out of 3 CL finals.
They of course lost to Inter and Chelsea.

brianregan09

What Legacy ? He went there and did exactly as well actually less so than his predecessor

CSF

jmayo wrote: »

You are forgetting that Bayern bought one of the their biggest rivals best players Mario Gotze the year he arrived.
That helped Bayern and hindered Dortmund.

Then to compund it the year after they landed their leading goalscorer and the leagues leading scorer from their rivals.

It would be akin to Arsenal selling Bergkamp and then letting Henry go for free to United around 2002/2003.

It is a dammn sight easier to beat your primary opposition when you keep taking their best players.

Take out Dortmund and the league doesn't look quiet so good over the last 5/6 years.

Oh and Heynckes had gotten them to the CL Final in Munich that they lost to Chelsea the year before he won the treble.
The year before he had inherited Van Gaals problems.

BTW even through those years (2010-2012) where they weren't winning or dominating the league they played in 2 out of 3 CL finals.
They of course lost to Inter and Chelsea.

Bayern taking everyone else in Germany's best players isn't a new thing though. They've done this to all their rivals. Guardiola has actually won more trophies than Heynckes in their respective 3 years at Bayern. It's just the Champions League has eluded them. It's hard to win, even arguably the best 2 Barca teams of all time only managed 3 from 8. It's so competitive. You can't just expect to win it. Particularly when Barca and Real have the players that they do.

Oat23

CSF wrote: »

There's another way to look at the measure of Guardiola's success at Bayern. In the 10 years before Guardiola took over, Bayern only won the Bundesliga 5 times, a 50% success rate. During Pep's time they've managed 3 titles without ever really looking like not winning one.

Obviously they were tremendous with Heynckes the year before and tore all asunder but the 2 years previous they did not win anything, so it's not as if Bayern winning trophies has just been a given.

If you compare Guardiola at Bayern to Heynckes that year, then he comes off looking badly, but that seems like an awfully high standard to judge against, I mean Heynckes went through 2 trophyless seasons before that season.

As I said on the previous page, it's not a fair comparison to compare Pep/Heynckes to former coaches because of the investment the board have made the last 5 years. Heynckes came in and had to clean up the mess made on and off the pitch after the van Gaal debacle, then in his 3rd season his Bayern team were one of the best teams of the last 10 years.

A 45% increase is massive for an already big club which hasn't just been taken over by a sugar daddy.
Manchester United's budget went up around 30% from 2011 - 2015. They lost Ferguson and spent big trying to get things back on track after he left, and they had a sh*tload more cash coming in from the TV deal. Yet after all that it still only went up 30%.


Bayern are unbeatable in the Buli now, but that doesn't have a lot to do with Pep and everything to do with the massive amount of money they have. Before 2011, Bayern were a beatable team because the gap was not as big between them and the rest. No Bundesliga team has a chance against them now, apart from maybe Dortmund.

Andersonisgod

Here's an excellent article that really does address so much of what you hear people say about Pep both from certain media outlets and from some posters on this board. https://grup14.com/article/the-pep-episodes-xxxviii-pep-guardiola-atletico-champions-league

CSF

Oat23 wrote: »

As I said on the previous page, it's not a fair comparison to compare Pep/Heynckes to former coaches because of the investment the board have made the last 5 years. Heynckes came in and had to clean up the mess made on and off the pitch after the van Gaal debacle, then in his 3rd season his Bayern team were one of the best teams of the last 10 years.

A 45% increase is massive for an already big club which hasn't just been taken over by a sugar daddy.
Manchester United's budget went up around 30% from 2011 - 2015. They lost Ferguson and spent big trying to get things back on track after he left, and they had a sh*tload more cash coming in from the TV deal. Yet after all that it still only went up 30%.


Bayern are unbeatable in the Buli now, but that doesn't have a lot to do with Pep and everything to do with the massive amount of money they have. Before 2011, Bayern were a beatable team because the gap was not as big between them and the rest. No Bundesliga team has a chance against them now, apart from maybe Dortmund.

Worth a mention with this considered, that they still didn't win the Bundesliga in 2011 or 2012. If Bayern beat Dortmund in the final next month, they'll have won all domestic trophies under Guardiola's reign bar one. It really is the elusive Champions League win which drives an entire narrative. Which I think is unfair because it's so hard to win it.

You can be as good as you want, look at Barca this year or the year they went out to Inter. They looked unstoppable. But the competition is so competitive that no matter how good you are, you're always a bounce of a ball away from going out. I mean I can't imagine Bayern were ever 2/1 at the start of a Champions League campaign, which means Guardiola ever winning a Champions League in a 3 year reign was always odds against in reality.

bucketybuck

CSF wrote: »

It really is the elusive Champions League win which drives an entire narrative.

But that narrative is itself based upon another narrative, that of the great Pep Guardiola being this revolutionary coach who creates brilliant football teams. That narrative was pushed in many places because of one job and so people want to know if it is true, is he really a superb manager who will bring guaranteed success? Or is he actually just a good manager lucky enough to have great players?

Thats where the expectation comes from. If Gary Neville was appointed coach and won 3 titles it would be considered a great achievement because there was no narrative about Neville being the worlds greatest coach. But Pep was touted as the greatest and the simple fact is that he didn't show that by winning the biggest prize.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Here's an excellent article that really does address so much of what you hear people say about Pep both from certain media outlets and from some posters on this board. https://grup14.com/article/the-pep-episodes-xxxviii-pep-guardiola-atletico-champions-league

It's really not that good an article.

The reason Heycknes got more credit was because Dortmund were better back then than they are now and Bayern had more competition in their own league.Also he was effectively sacked midway through 2012-13 season because of his failures the year before.

The article mentions that it was small things that cost Bayrn but thats the point they didn't play well enough to mean that small things in games would have no impact which is what a lot of great teams manage to do and guardiola failed to get them to that level.

Bayern were battered in the previous 2 semi finals and didn't play so well in this one that the Atletico keeper was pulling off numerous miraculous saves to keep them in the game.

He was brought in to win the Champions League he failed to do that therefore he cannot be considered a complete success at Bayern.

CSF

bucketybuck wrote: »

But that narrative is itself based upon another narrative, that of the great Pep Guardiola being this revolutionary coach who creates brilliant football teams. That narrative was pushed in many places because of one job and so people want to know if it is true, is he really a superb manager who will bring guaranteed success? Or is he actually just a good manager lucky enough to have great players?

Thats where the expectation comes from. If Gary Neville was appointed coach and won 3 titles it would be considered a great achievement because there was no narrative about Neville being the worlds greatest coach. But Pep was touted as the greatest and the simple fact is that he didn't show that by winning the biggest prize.

If the narrative was that Guardiola by his mere presence made the Champions League inevitable, then it was a grossly inaccurate one that didn't reflect the insanely high standard of teams around them, led by one very impressive Barcelona team, but Atletico and Real have both made it to 2 finals in this period too.

Guardiola is obviously a very special manager, but that never made a Champions League inevitable. That's not how the Champions League works.

cson

I'd think that failing to get to the final, let alone win the Champions League with the players he had at his disposal over the past 3 years is certainly a blot on the copy book for Pep.

That being said I do think it's instructive that in its current format the thing has yet to be retained by any team - especially when you remember the quality of the defending champions in the years gone by.

CSF

cson wrote: »

I'd think that failing to get to the final, let alone win the Champions League with the players he had at his disposal over the past 3 years is certainly a blot on the copy book for Pep.

That being said I do think it's instructive that in its current format the thing has yet to be retained by any team - especially when you remember the quality of the defending champions in the years gone by.

A small blot maybe. There's a team out there with Messi, Neymar and Suarez in it and another with Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema. Bayern are not the biggest shark in the sea.

Mushy

CSF wrote: »

A small blot maybe. There's a team out there with Messi, Neymar and Suarez in it and another with Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema. Bayern are not the biggest shark in the sea.

They should at least make one final in three attempts though. Between that team and Pep as manager. It doesn't help that they were comprehensively beaten in two of the semi finals.

Most of the comments are fairly spot on, did well, but not the best that should at least be achieved. Partially a victim of his own success.

He has some job on his hands at City though!

CSF

Mushy wrote: »

They should at least make one final in three attempts though. Between that team and Pep as manager. It doesn't help that they were comprehensively beaten in two of the semi finals.

Most of the comments are fairly spot on, did well, but not the best that should at least be achieved. Partially a victim of his own success.

He has some job on his hands at City though!

I still think it's harsh. This Barca team with Messi, Neymar, Suarez, the most outrageous attacking force we are ever likely to see has only made 1 final in this timeframe.

It's an insanely difficult to do, hence why I think we should be looking at the perspective of heaping praise on the teams who do get there, rather than massively criticising the teams who don't. It's a very high standard to keep up with.

cson

To counter that; Atleti have 2 appearances in that time and I don't think you could consider them to have vastly superior players to Bayern. The opposite in fact imo. What they do have is an incredibly effective method of playing with the resources they have. They're punching above their weight.

Overall with the talent Bayern have, in terms of players and coach, then to not have made the final in Pep's 3 years is a blot on his copybook. I'd be surprised if the man himself didn't think so too. That's the standard you have to hold him to imo.

Hollister11

CSF wrote: »

I still think it's harsh. This Barca team with Messi, Neymar, Suarez, the most outrageous attacking force we are ever likely to see has only made 1 final in this timeframe.

It's an insanely difficult to do, hence why I think we should be looking at the perspective of heaping praise on the teams who do get there, rather than massively criticising the teams who don't. It's a very high standard to keep up with.

This is only there second season together

Mushy

CSF wrote: »

I still think it's harsh. This Barca team with Messi, Neymar, Suarez, the most outrageous attacking force we are ever likely to see has only made 1 final in this timeframe.

It's an insanely difficult to do, hence why I think we should be looking at the perspective of heaping praise on the teams who do get there, rather than massively criticising the teams who don't. It's a very high standard to keep up with.

Nobody isn't not heaping praise on those teams though. This is about Pep's legacy at Bayern solely, and not even making one final is a bit of a blot on the copybook. Its not like he had a poor spell at Bayern, but with his high standards it hasn't been as successful as would be needed (possibly by both sides, man and club).

The limitations of his style can be seen, they just rarely come up against opposition who can/will exploit them enough. There's no shame in that. Some won't consider him the best in the game, a lot will have to wait and see how the City spell goes. Some won't give him that time and say he's overrated, some will.

CSF

cson wrote: »

To counter that; Atleti have 2 appearances in that time and I don't think you could consider them to have vastly superior players to Bayern. The opposite in fact imo. What they do have is an incredibly effective method of playing with the resources they have. They're punching above their weight.

Overall with the talent Bayern have, in terms of players and coach, then to not have made the final in Pep's 3 years is a blot on his copybook. I'd be surprised if the man himself didn't think so too. That's the standard you have to hold him to imo.

They have. Atletico have outperformed Bayern in Europe, but the margins are so narrow in a competition like this. Muller scores his penalty and Guardiola is off to the final. It's so competitive that I dont think its a fair stick to beat with.

CSF

Mushy wrote: »

Nobody isn't not heaping praise on those teams though. This is about Pep's legacy at Bayern solely, and not even making one final is a bit of a blot on the copybook. Its not like he had a poor spell at Bayern, but with his high standards it hasn't been as successful as would be needed (possibly by both sides, man and club).

The limitations of his style can be seen, they just rarely come up against opposition who can/will exploit them enough. There's no shame in that. Some won't consider him the best in the game, a lot will have to wait and see how the City spell goes. Some won't give him that time and say he's overrated, some will.

Would Pep's spell at Bayern have been better if he won a Champions League? Absolutely.

Turtwig

Atletico have only made two semi finals though. Pep has reached the semis in every year as coach and on all occasions so far has been eliminated by the overall winner.

It's really hard to compare teams at this level. As Csf said the margins are so bloody tight. Atletico have some players that would be valid starters in Barca, Real or Bayern nevermind clubs outside the supposed "big three".

MD1990

Bayern were lucky not be knocked out in last 16 by Juventus. Thry would have been if Marchisio,Dybala & Chiellini were fit for the 2nd leg.

jmayo

MD1990 wrote: »

Bayern were lucky not be knocked out in last 16 by Juventus. Thry would have been if Marchisio,Dybala & Chiellini were fit for the 2nd leg.

And maybe if a legitimate goal by Morata was not ruled offside it would have been 3-0.
Bayern were lucky to squeeze past Juve.

And I don't recall Rummenigge whining about that offside decision.

I reckon Guardiola will be found out at City.

Kirby

He did okay. No disaster but no roaring success.

Frankly when you outspend everybody else and have no domestic competition to speak of......if you don't win everything that's on offer you wont be seen as a success. That's just the reality of it. When you have the fastest car on the track, anything other than first place isn't good enough.

England has United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, and Liverpool all fighting for the same group of top talent because they can all afford them. So nobody runs away with it. Because the talent is shared about. Even the second tier of permierleague clubs in England are so wealthy they can hoover up talent at a level not seen in the other leagues.

If the German league was as competitive as the English one, you would see his 3 Bundesliga wins in a more favourable light. But its not. So Bayern buy everyone from their local competition and get better while making everyone else weaker.

Hollister11

If he comes on and wins 3 titles in a row at City, he will be praised more than was for his time at Barcelona.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

Worth a mention with this considered, that they still didn't win the Bundesliga in 2011 or 2012. If Bayern beat Dortmund in the final next month, they'll have won all domestic trophies under Guardiola's reign bar one. It really is the elusive Champions League win which drives an entire narrative. Which I think is unfair because it's so hard to win it.

They finished 3rd on 65 points the season before Heynckes arrived on 65pts.

In his first season, they finished 2nd on 73 points.

In his second season, they won the league on 91 points, were top of the table from day one, and broke a silly amount of records. On top of that they also won the cup and CL.

In Peps first year, he nearly matched it with 91 points, but last year they only had 78 and this season while I am 99.99999% sure they will win the league it will likely be between 82-88 points.

Guardiola has done ok, but Heynckes did a lot better in the wider context as well as in terms of European success.

derm0j073

Looks like all wasn't rosy in the garden at Bayern , CL exit has led to a little finger pointing according to the guardian .http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/06/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-mole

Andersonisgod

derm0j073 wrote: »

Looks like all wasn't rosy in the garden at Bayern , CL exit has led to a little finger pointing according to the guardian .http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/06/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-mole

Common knowledge that Pep was in a constant battle throughout his time at the club with the medical staff and with a club culture that is far too friendly and open with media outlets. Essentially there were powerful parties within the club pulling a different way than Pep, which Pep felt completely undermined his work.

I also must say, as a massive fan of the man, his quotes post Atletico have been stirring, if anything my admiration for the Catalan coach has only grown.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Common knowledge that Pep was in a constant battle throughout his time at the club with the medical staff and with a club culture that is far too friendly and open with media outlets. Essentially there were powerful parties within the club pulling a different way than Pep, which Pep felt completely undermined his work.

I also must say, as a massive fan of the man, his quotes post Atletico have been stirring, if anything my admiration for the Catalan coach has only grown.

But surely as the club has been in existence without Guardiola for decades and have been successful without him for decades then he needs to accept that he has to adjust to their demands more than they have to adjust to his.

He's there to coach the senior team not change how the club operates.

rob316

Oh man some of the English media are really trying to hype this guy up. One article claimed pep was responsible for making Lewandowski one of the top strikers in the world...utterly laughable. He was already world class at Dortmund, klopp brought him from nothing.

Andersonisgod

rob316 wrote: »

Oh man some of the English media are really trying to hype this guy up. One article claimed pep was responsible for making Lewandowski one of the top strikers in the world...utterly laughable. He was already world class at Dortmund, klopp brought him from nothing.

You mean a media outlet, and an individual, have taken Pep's work and put it under scrutiny without any context and their end result is incorrect? Oh the irony.

Hollister11

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10274082/pep-guardiola-has-wasted-millions-on-transfers-says-sunday-supplement

"Guardiola has wasted millions"

40 Million loss on Zlatan

20M on Dmytro Chygrynskiy

Andersonisgod

Hollister11 wrote: »

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10274082/pep-guardiola-has-wasted-millions-on-transfers-says-sunday-supplement

"Guardiola has wasted millions"

40 Million loss on Zlatan

20M on Dmytro Chygrynskiy

"He has no plan B"

*laughs and immediately stops reading the thoughts of a potentially crazed individual. When you see quotes like that and you realise just who that journalist writes for you know you're onto a loser. Search beyond the confines of Sky's Sunday Supplement and you'll find far more impressive writers who don't pander to the lowest common denominator and offer a far richer, more textured view of the game.

Agent Coulson

Ancelotti to come in next season and go back to basics with the players and system and walk the CL to win his 4th and Bayern's 6th.


But we all know it really will be Pep's win.

Andersonisgod

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Ancelotti to come in next season and go back to basics with the players and system and walk the CL to win his 4th and Bayern's 6th.


But we all know it really will be Pep's win.

Funny that you see posters giving Nigel Pearson a percentage of credit for Leicester's title win yet would Pep not deserve some credit for not only helping to build this squad but develop the individual players within it?

In any case it's a silly argument that Pep would want nothing to do with.

Billy86

Hollister11 wrote: »

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10274082/pep-guardiola-has-wasted-millions-on-transfers-says-sunday-supplement

"Guardiola has wasted millions"

40 Million loss on Zlatan

20M on Dmytro Chygrynskiy

I've been saying Guardiola is overrated for years, but to be fair he has been managing at the top, top level for almost a decade are - I think you'll find its very rare for a manager to go that long at that level without having a few high priced duds.

Also questioning if he could "do a Ranieri" instead of buying players, but that is completely unfair as Ranieri bought 9 players for over 27mn, including two absolutely crucial players in Huth and Kante and some very prominent squaddies like Fuchs and Ozakazi. Don't get me wrong, Ranieri did an unbelievable job with them and while big money that's still a pittance compared to City, but that why it is also unfair because "doing a Ranieri" involves equalling perhaps the best single season management achievement in possibly the history of the game. Setting that expectation would mean needing to romp over 100pts to even come close to meeting it for City fans.

Pep is still a quality managers, one of the best out there, but I do agree that a weakness of his is believing his own hype. Most managers would have gone to Bayern and noticed how well Heynckes set up had been working and how well fit for it the squad and personnel were,and stick with it. Pep though felt that because he is Pep he must manage a 'Pepball' team and so just decided to go about installing said Pepball regardless. Personally, I think they would have done more sticking with something closer to Heynckes' set up and feel that Peps ego got in the way on that front.

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

I've been saying Guardiola is overrated for years, but to be fair he has been managing at the top, top level for almost a decade are - I think you'll find its very rare for a manager to go that long at that level without having a few high priced duds.

Also questioning if he could "do a Ranieri" instead of buying players, but that is completely unfair as Ranieri bought 9 players for over 27mn, including two absolutely crucial players in Huth and Kante and some very prominent squaddies like Fuchs and Ozakazi. Don't get me wrong, Ranieri did an unbelievable job with them and while big money that's still a pittance compared to City, but that why it is also unfair because "doing a Ranieri" involves equalling perhaps the best single season management achievement in possibly the history of the game. Setting that expectation would mean needing to romp over 100pts to even come close to meeting it for City fans.

Pep is still a quality managers, one of the best out there, but I do agree that a weakness of his is believing his own hype. Most managers would have gone to Bayern and noticed how well Heynckes set up had been working and how well fit for it the squad and personnel were,and stick with it. Pep though felt that because he is Pep he must manage a 'Pepball' team and so just decided to go about installing said Pepball regardless. Personally, I think they would have done more sticking with something closer to Heynckes' set up and feel that Peps ego got in the way on that front.

Question on your last paragraph because I'm always curious about the mindset of people who put that theory forward as it completely nullifies the desires of the club. If Bayern were so good understanding Heynckes and if Bayern knew what they were getting in Pep (Pepball) then why didn't the club just continue with Heynckes, why look for Pepball in the first place?

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Question on your last paragraph because I'm always curious about the mindset of people who put that theory forward as it completely nullifies the desires of the club. If Bayern were so good understanding Heynckes and if Bayern knew what they were getting in Pep (Pepball) then why didn't the club just continue with Heynckes, why look for Pepball in the first place?

It's pretty simple really, they had a poor season the year before and like every other club these days they didn't have the patience to wait for things to work out so they went and got Pep. Then Heynckes team came together and won the treble.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Question on your last paragraph because I'm always curious about the mindset of people who put that theory forward as it completely nullifies the desires of the club. If Bayern were so good understanding Heynckes and if Bayern knew what they were getting in Pep (Pepball) then why didn't the club just continue with Heynckes, why look for Pepball in the first place?

Because Guardiola was going to be available for only a short time and they had to nab him quickly also Bayern were beaten in the 2012 champions league final and probably felt (wrongly) that Heycknes was not up to the job of winning the champions league and so wanted Guardiola to deliver that seeing as he had been Barcelona's manager when they won it twice before.

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

It's pretty simple really, they had a poor season the year before and like every other club these days they didn't have the patience to wait for things to work out so they went and got Pep. Then Heynckes team came together and won the treble.

Too simplistic and lacking in context. From the quotes of powerful club personnel at the time you'll see that the decision to appoint Pep was based on the desire to cement an instantly recognisable playing style for the club and for success. Legacy and success.

Mushy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Too simplistic and lacking in context. From the quotes of powerful club personnel at the time you'll see that the decision to appoint Pep was based on the desire to cement an instantly recognisable playing style for the club and for success. Legacy and success.

And now it's a playing style that won't stick around after he's gone. Nice to have for a few years, but at times it needs to be more effective. They got the success, and it isn't the most surprising to see Bayern winning the league an awful lot. Is there a legacy after that? None more than Hynckes

I don't think City are ready for Peps style of play, Bayern were at the time.

Andersonisgod

Mushy wrote: »

And now it's a playing style that won't stick around after he's gone. Nice to have for a few years, but at times it needs to be more effective. They got the success, and it isn't the most surprising to see Bayern winning the league an awful lot. Is there a legacy after that? None more than Hynckes

I don't think City are ready for Peps style of play, Bayern were at the time.

I think it's debatable just how lasting Guardiola's legacy at Bayern will be, from the youth ranks up to the first team. I will say I don't think Ancelotti is the best appointment if you are looking to continue that legacy. Pep's legacy in Germany as a whole though seems far deeper, just this morning browsing about on Twitter and seeing a picture of the German under 17 side playing with effectively 2 defenders, a pivot, two ultra advanced full backs, 2 midfield shuttles and a striker dropping in between the lines and you know that Pep's work has had a wider impact.

How ready City are we will see, it's a squad that needs a lot of work though both in terms of personnel and coaching.

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Too simplistic and lacking in context. From the quotes of powerful club personnel at the time you'll see that the decision to appoint Pep was based on the desire to cement an instantly recognisable playing style for the club and for success. Legacy and success.

Do you believe all the bull that is spoken every time a big club hires a new manager. They are trying to make it big news, they are trying to get the fans fully behind it. Do you not understand anything about public relations?

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you believe all the bull that is spoken every time a big club hires a new manager. They are trying to make it big news, they are trying to get the fans fully behind it. Do you not understand anything about public relations?

I don't think you can differentiate between simple media hype and a very obvious reasoning behind why you'd hire Guardiola and not any other coach. Your argument lacks color, far too black and white, without sources or facts, without quotes or context, far too simplistic to form any basis in the reality of the mindset of a massive club like Bayern Munich.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think it's debatable just how lasting Guardiola's legacy at Bayern will be, from the youth ranks up to the first team. I will say I don't think Ancelotti is the best appointment if you are looking to continue that legacy. Pep's legacy in Germany as a whole though seems far deeper, just this morning browsing about on Twitter and seeing a picture of the German under 17 side playing with effectively 2 defenders, a pivot, two ultra advanced full backs, 2 midfield shuttles and a striker dropping in between the lines and you know that Pep's work has had a wider impact.

How ready City are we will see, it's a squad that needs a lot of work though both in terms of personnel and coaching.

If that is the case then clearly his appointment was nothing to do with legacy and was all about getting results in Europe (which is what Ancelotti is being brought in to do).Of course it's much better to spin the legacy as you can spin it as a success if the spell wasn't.


Being a slave to a philosophy at the highest level in any sport is not a good thing.

Billy86

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't think you can differentiate between simple media hype and a very obvious reasoning behind why you'd hire Guardiola and not any other coach. Your argument lacks color, far too black and white, without sources or facts, without quotes or context, far too simplistic to form any basis in the reality of the mindset of a massive club like Bayern Munich.

Would like a link to that German U17 team, cheers.

Mushy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think it's debatable just how lasting Guardiola's legacy at Bayern will be, from the youth ranks up to the first team. I will say I don't think Ancelotti is the best appointment if you are looking to continue that legacy. Pep's legacy in Germany as a whole though seems far deeper, just this morning browsing about on Twitter and seeing a picture of the German under 17 side playing with effectively 2 defenders, a pivot, two ultra advanced full backs, 2 midfield shuttles and a striker dropping in between the lines and you know that Pep's work has had a wider impact.

How ready City are we will see, it's a squad that needs a lot of work though both in terms of personnel and coaching.

Well yeah, he hasn't finished his stint so I guess the legacy will come in time. But he'll only be a small cog in the whole German setup, people taking inspiration from him as he would have done before him.

City need bucket loads of work, and will involve bucket loads of cash, maybe even to farcical levels.

tastyt

Why should ancelloti give a **** about continueing peps legacy?

Ancelloti is there to do what pep has failed to do and nobody will be suprised if he does a better job. Unlike pep, Carlos ego doesn't get in the way of his decisions

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't think you can differentiate between simple media hype and a very obvious reasoning behind why you'd hire Guardiola and not any other coach. Your argument lacks color, far too black and white, without sources or facts, without quotes or context, far too simplistic to form any basis in the reality of the mindset of a massive club like Bayern Munich.

You came out with reasons why they hired him, I call what they said normal, sensible public relations for a business. Now you go saying my argument is lacking?

Look, it's normal for any business to make a big splash when they hire a big name or a new CEO for example. If you don't understand that then it's pointless discussing it with you.

It's not surprising they came out with something like they did when they hired Pep Guardiola. He came with a rich reputation, which if anything has been hurt by his time there, and they were always going to make him welcome in the public eye.

I'm not saying anything negative about Pep Guardiola and you might notice that if you carefully read back through the thread. I've said that in my opinion he has done well with Bayern Munich but unfortunately is this day and age an instant win all impact is expected by younger football fans.

I don't agree with you that he had much impact on the German national team winning the World Cup. I seen them play in the Euro's in 2012 and they were playing a possession based game and all the way up until they met Italy they looked like they could actually win the Euro's.

The problem with playing that type of game is that a very disciplined, well drilled, hard working side can beat it if they can counter successfully. We saw Italy do that to Germany in 2012 and we saw Inter Milan and then Atletico Madrid do it to Pep Guardiola's teams.

That is not a knock on Pep either because every football system you can think of has a weakness that can be exploited.

The one problem that I find with Pep Guardiola teams is the lack of a plan B. He has to find a way to do that, maybe have a big man and somebody who can cross the ball into the box on the bench. I don't know how he will go about it but for him to continue to be hugely successful with his system he is going to have to find a plan B. There are too many teams in the Premier league who will be willing to sit back and counter.

CSF

Personally, I think when Plan A is to continually keep the ball and create attacks through sustained pressure, then Plan B isn't such a thing. I'm not a believer that adapting a more direct, quicker to the goal approach is that much of a benefit in increasing the odds of you getting a goal.

Bayern didn't struggle to create opportunities against Atletico. Plan A didn't fail, they just couldn't score a goal.

Turtwig

CSF wrote: »

Personally, I think when Plan A is to continually keep the ball and create attacks through sustained pressure, then Plan B isn't such a thing. I'm not a believer that adapting a more direct, quicker to the goal approach is that much of a benefit in increasing the odds of you getting a goal.

Bayern didn't struggle to create opportunities against Atletico. Plan A didn't fail, they just couldn't score a goal.

Have to agree it seems to me the "plan B" involves simply lumping the ball into the box. Simple math says when the defending team has 8 players back odds are they're going to clear it and then they have all that space to launch into a counter attack. In other words, that kind of plan B will end up being chastised as high line naivety because well most of the time the team if they're any bit technically competent will be able to launch an effective counter attack. The critics of "not having a plan B" end up giving themselves a feedback loop where playing their desired plan B leads to no plan B leading to more you should be playing a plan B.

Plan B in my eyes is simply taking more risks by committing more players forward, playing more vertical and pressing higher, hoping to win 50/50s and get a break. It looks like Bayern did that in the last 15 minutes. When you only need one goal it's irresponsible to play that way any earlier in the game.