Griezmann

Patww79

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was a genuine question.

I wouldn't take offense to a black footballer dressed up as a white man.

I'm not sure this will be perceived as racist.

I could be way off the mark though.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

blueser

I wouldn't have thought he was racist (although I don't know the bloke, so that can only be an assumption). But he's been incredibly stupid/naive (you choose) to do that in this day and age. Surely he must have realised the s**tstorm that such an act could bring down on him.

blueser

blueser wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought he was racist (although I don't know the bloke, so that can only be an assumption). But he's been incredibly stupid/naive (you choose) to do that in this day and age. Surely he must have realised the s**tstorm that such an act could bring down on him.

Yeah, probably more naive than racist.

lassykk

Anyone who thinks that's racist genuinely has something wrong with them. Couldn't believe it was even newsworthy

LiamoSail

If he had dressed up as a woman, would he be sexist? Same logic

Mr.Nice Guy

I can't believe there's people who don't think this is racist. The Black and White Minstrel show has been off TV since before many of us were born.



And can you believe some Asian people don't like it when you pull your eyes back with your fingers and talk like them. Those pesky snowflakes ruining everything.

Dear oh dear.

I doubt the chap is a racist but he's been very foolish to do this and then to post it online. Obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

WoollyRedHat

^^ Sorry but I disagree, there's a world of difference to dressing up as a black basketball player ( as per his message it was a homage to the Harlem Globetrotters ) as a costume and appearing as a black minstrel which had degrading racial undertones.. it's apple and oranges.

LiamoSail

Blackface can be pulled off tastefully even in the modern day. The second part of the Lethal Weapon 5 remake proves this

ERG89

Probably the most eventful thing he has done this season.

WoollyRedHat

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

^^ Sorry but I disagree, there's a world of difference to dressing up as a black basketball player ( as per his message it was a homage to the Harlem Globetrotters ) as a costume and appearing as a black minstrel which had degrading racial undertones.. it's apple and oranges.

Yep, and those guys sang songs from the deep south etc. Ridiculous comparison.

Mr.Nice Guy

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

^^ Sorry but I disagree, there's a world of difference to dressing up as a black basketball player ( as per his message it was a homage to the Harlem Globetrotters ) as a costume and appearing as a black minstrel which had degrading racial undertones.. it's apple and oranges.

There's not a world of difference. It's using a person's skin colour as a punchline. And it was a strange homage to the Harlem Globetrotters given he is wearing an NBA All Stars jersey. Watch that homage defence disappear sharpish once the PR team gets on this in the next 24 hours. He's making himself a laughing stock with that line.

By the way, I wonder would you be comfortable showing up to the work Halloween do wearing the costume and using that defence? I somehow doubt it.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

ERG89

He deleted it and issued an apology. Probably more to do with not wanting to upset sponsors than people before people start.

https://twitter.com/AntoGriezmann/status/942509267436888070

Mr.Nice Guy

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm in it mate. You seem to have time travelled here from the seventies.

niallo27

Ah Jaysus are people actually offended at this ****e. I mean I don't get offended if someone dresses up as a leprechaun.

Mr.Nice Guy

niallo27 wrote: »

Ah Jaysus are people actually offended at this ****e. I mean I don't get offended if someone dresses up as a leprechaun.

Like Ray Houghton you mean?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~gearoidw01/houghton.jpg

SOCCER fans have accused former Ireland star Ray Houghton of pandering to racial stereotypes after he dressed as a leprechaun, a 'Riverdance' star and a potato on a British comedy show.

The RTE pundit appeared on Frank Skinner and David Baddiel's 'Fantasy Football Euro 2004' show, sending up his Irish roots.

Television channel ITV confirmed last night it had received two complaints from viewers, while hordes of fans wrote to soccer websites and contacted Joe Duffy's 'Liveline' to air their complaints.

As well as the leprechaun and potato, he disguised himself as Jean Butler from 'Riverdance', sang 'Fairytale of New York' alongside Skinner, who was impersonating a drunken Shane McGowan, and most controversially appeared next to an IRA-style military figure in a balaclava holding a machine gun.

One complainant, calling himself Coco, told Irish supporters' site www.thepeoplesflag.com that he was surprised and disappointed by the midfielder's decision to re-enact his famous Euro '88 goal against England in fancy dress.

He wrote: "I am disappointed with these racist stereotypes, which showed little regard to sensitivity of the nation, and to many thousands of young Irish children who view Mr Houghton as a hero and a legend for his endeavours in an Irish jersey on the football pitch."

He said he saw differences between the racial undertones on the show and those expressed by Ron Atkinson, also on ITV, which led to that pundit's resignation.

"You may accuse me of being over-sensitive in this regard, and perhaps I am, but it's very disappointing to see an Irish sporting hero have such disregard for the nation he represented with such honour on the world stage," he said.

Glasgow-born Ray Houghton (42) played midfield for the Republic of Ireland between 1986 and 1997.

He became a legend with famous winning goals against England and Italy in Euro '88 and the 1994 World Cup respectively. Between 1987 and 1992, he played for Liverpool, where he won two league championships and two FA Cups.

He was unavailable for comment last night from Portugal, where he is on the RTE broadcasting team covering Euro 2004.

https://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/fans-cry-foul-as-houghton-plays-potato-on-british-tv-25912409.html

niallo27

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Like Ray Houghton you mean?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~gearoidw01/houghton.jpg

Yes exactly. I was not one bit offended.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Like Ray Houghton you mean?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~gearoidw01/houghton.jpg

Was anyone actually offended by that?


FFS - The offended generation :rolleyes:


EDIT

Television channel ITV confirmed last night it had received two complaints from viewers, while hordes of fans wrote to soccer websites and contacted Joe Duffy's 'Liveline' to air their complaints.

Enough said.

Harry Palmr

No one criticised Lenny Henry for going whiteface!

Mr.Nice Guy

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Was anyone actually offended by that?


FFS - The offended generation :rolleyes:


EDIT



Enough said.

The offended generation. :pac:

Cast your mind back to when Eastenders went to Ireland in the 90s (or the Ireland of the 1840s as it came across) and the furore that caused. Irish people have a long history of taking offence at perceived negative stereotypes about ourselves. That's what amuses me about the dry-your-eyes crowd.

The offended generation goes back a long time:

I suppose some could argue the above is just a bit of bantz. Those 19th century types were a bunch of snowflakes.

WoollyRedHat

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There's not a world of difference. It's using a person's skin colour as a punchline. And it was a strange homage to the Harlem Globetrotters given he is wearing an NBA All Stars jersey. Watch that homage defence disappear sharpish once the PR team gets on this in the next 24 hours. He's making himself a laughing stock with that line.

By the way, I wonder would you be comfortable showing up to the work Halloween do wearing the costume and using that defence? I somehow doubt it.

He's done it for a costume party for a team which would of been predominamtly black. I don't agree it was done as using as a person's skin colour as a punchline... as a way of malice. whereas a minstrel had it's whole premise in protraying a whole race as a 'lesser', from its inception and in the application and had malice at its very core.

The fact he didnt' wear a Harlems Globetrotter jersey? I think that's a non-sequitur point in any case and the NBA All Stars jersey is an all encompassing one if yoy look it up.

My bottom line is I do not think there is a comparison between the two. Usiing the homage defence? If that was my genuine intention then yes. But it's a moot point as I personally wouldn't go in that costume.

On the other side of things I think cultural appropriation of being offended on black people's behalf on such issues is demeaning in itself, a point which I have seen made elsewhere.

Back to my original point, the idea of going blackface; as a minstrel is not the same as Griezmann did.... the arguement if it was ill-advised is another one.

Agent Coulson

Pretty sure White Chicks made millions at the box office and I don’t remember an outrage about that.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The offended generation. :pac:

Cast your mind back to when Eastenders went to Ireland in the 90s (or the Ireland of the 1840s as it came across) and the furore that caused. Irish people have a long history of taking offence at perceived negative stereotypes about ourselves. That's what amuses me about the dry-your-eyes crowd.

The offended generation goes back a long time:

I suppose some could argue the above is just a bit of bantz. Those 19th century types were a bunch of snowflakes.

Black people being compared to monkeys versus a footballer dressing up as black basketball player. You're jumping the gun just a bit!

As for the leprechaun, cmon. What clowns were offended by that. It was Ray Houghton too ffs,half Irish. An Irish footballing legend. Two people complained.

No time for racism. What Griesmann did doesn't fit into that bucket imo.

PhlegmyMoses

The "white people don't get annoyed by black people doing similar" line is an almost child-like argument at this stage, in its lack of acknowledgement of cultural context, its ignorant disregard of historical significance and its blatant attempt to handwave away any sign of offence by minorities.

Anyway, you guys don't need that argument here. This is just a misjudged costume that will be forgotten about after that apology. Let's hope he has smarter people around him that will advise him against pointing out occasions where white people didn't get offended.

Mr.Nice Guy

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

He's done it for a costume party for a team which would of been predominamtly black. I don't agree it was done as using as a person's skin colour as a punchline... as a way of malice. whereas a minstrel had it's whole premise in protraying a whole race as a 'lesser', from its inception and in the application and had malice at its very core.

The fact he didnt' wear a Harlems Globetrotter jersey? I think that's a non-sequitur point in any case and the NBA All Stars jersey is an all encompassing one if yoy look it up.

My bottom line is I do not think there is a comparison between the two. Usiing the homage defence? If that was my genuine intention then yes. But it's a moot point as I personally wouldn't go in that costume.

On the other side of things I think cultural appropriation of being offended on black people's behalf on such issues is demeaning in itself, a point which I have seen made elsewhere.

Back to my original point, the idea of going blackface; as a minstrel is not the same as Griezmann did.... the arguement if it was ill-advised is another one.

I don't imagine he did it out of malice either but when you dress up as blackface of course that's the punchline. You're looking to get a laugh by doing it as I think we both know. I don't see how the point about his jersey is a non-sequitur because if as you seem to believe it was a "homage", why was it so important to get the blackface done but not to actually get the relevant jersey. That doesn't make a lot of sense which means it's probably not true. I think you miss the point also when you mention being offended on black people's behalf. You don't need to be of the ethnicity mocked to take offence.

The bottom line for me is I suspect the guy isn't a racist, but he's been very dim and stupid to do this given that he comes from a country that has plenty of racial tension within it at the moment, not to mention the country he plays for has had issues in the past with divisions within the squad. This has nothing to do with snowflakes or offended generations. The reality is few if any workplace in 2017 would tolerate this type of behaviour from an employee without some reprimand.

RoboKlopp wrote:

Black people being compared to monkeys versus a footballer dressing up as black basketball player. You're jumping the gun just a bit!

As for the leprechaun, cmon. What clowns were offended by that. It was Ray Houghton too ffs,half Irish. An Irish footballing legend. Two people complained.

No time for racism. What Griesmann did doesn't fit into that bucket imo.

Those were pictures from Punch magazine in Britain comparing Irish people to monkeys. Have a Google of some of their depictions of the Irish which went on for quite some time. The point I'm making is whenever it was pointed out to the right-wing press across the water that Irish people were offended by their depiction of ourselves, they brushed it off and thought it was just a bit of fun. That is always the defence given.

With regards Houghton, as I recall it wasn't so much the leprechaun outfit that caused offence but the references to the IRA. It was also very unfunny which didn't help.

c montgomery

Who gives a fiddlers, hope he has a good night.

Corholio

He's an idiot for doing it in fairness. The thing I'm always amazed at with these incidents is that every time it happens with a sports star/celebrity it's rightly roundly criticised, but yet a few months later there will be another instance of it where that person will wheel out the 'I apologise if I caused offence' line and act like they don't know what the big deal is. Lack of education or just ignorance is usually the cause of these things, and the ignorance about the 'bants' of it is almost just as bad.

FatherTed

I doubt Griezmann is racist but what he did was incredibly stupid. The reason why it is frowned upon is because of history of whites mainly in the US dressing up as black people and dehumanizing them.

Also those on here saying no big deal, you might not be offended but someone else might so what gives you the right to tell them how they should feel? Finally the what-abouters here saying they have no problem with Lenny Henry or White Chicks - it is not the same thing and you know it.

Minderbinder

His big mistake was sharing it on a platform where people from English speaking countries would certainly see it. Had he known that this is taboo in the powerful underclasses of preachy enlightened nations, he wouldn’t have shared it imo.

StringerBell

What a load of bollix.

IncognitoMan

If he was doing it and dressed up as a slave or something then yeah people would have good cause to be outraged.

Dressed as a basketball player? Nah, cop on.

rob316

I'd have had more respect for him if he told people stfu. This PC snowflake generation drives me mad.

brevity

I think the history of black face is the reason why it's not something that black people find funny.

El Horseboxo

I'm assuming most people here are white Irish. Maybe that assumption is racist. Who knows in this day and age. But to those that are white and offended by this and/or think it's racist. Why are you are offended by it and why is it racist? It hasn't really got anything to do with you for you to be offended by it.

As a person of color I don't see it as one but racist. It is a costume which I guess is for a costume party. He is a basketball fan. And dressed up as something he has an interest in. In what context is this racist? Why do so many people who could never be victims of some instance of supposed racism always the ones that seem to be the most offended? It's crazy. Calm down.

lassykk

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can't believe there's people who don't think this is racist. The Black and White Minstrel show has been off TV since before many of us were born.



And can you believe some Asian people don't like it when you pull your eyes back with your fingers and talk like them. Those pesky snowflakes ruining everything.

Dear oh dear.

I doubt the chap is a racist but he's been very foolish to do this and then to post it online. Obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Man, you're one of the best posters in the soccer forum and I always enjoy your updates but I really think you are over reacting on this.

ERG89

rob316 wrote: »

I'd have had more respect for him if he told people stfu. This PC snowflake generation drives me mad.

It really helps to just ignore it tbh. A lot of the problem now is people get outrage over nothing and then others seek this outrage so they can be outraged by it.
An argument ensues and the only thing achieved is a ongoing cycle that just wastes time.

He said sorry and it probably had a lot more to do with not losing a sponsor if they got upset with being mentioned in a article about it.

keano_afc

Wouldnt be a huge fan of Bill Maher, but I like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaC1-U8LIY0

El Horseboxo

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I'm assuming most people here are white Irish. Maybe that assumption is racist. Who knows in this day and age. But to those that are white and offended by this and/or think it's racist. Why are you are offended by it and why is it racist? It hasn't really got anything to do with you for you to be offended by it.

As a person of color I don't see it as one but racist. It is a costume which I guess is for a costume party. He is a basketball fan. And dressed up as something he has an interest in. In what context is this racist? Why do so many people who could never be victims of some instance of supposed racism always the ones that seem to be the most offended? It's crazy. Calm down.

Amen to that!

Mitch Connor

Minderbinder wrote: »

His big mistake was sharing it on a platform where people from English speaking countries would certainly see it. Had he known that this is taboo in the powerful underclasses of preachy enlightened nations, he wouldn’t have shared it imo.

underclasses?

Lucas Hood

https://twitter.com/IndyFootball/status/943112284737605633

Atleti reporting Barca for all illegal approch.

Lukker-

Could a foreign club get done for tapping up Griezmann? I thought you could only get punished for tapping up a player from the same league.

~Rebel~

Actually can't believe how many people seem to think blackface is grand. And even more astonished how many people think it's even remotely comparable to a black person in white makeup. Just ignoring the entire history and context of blackface and black history.

And it's not about any individuals here being offended - I'm not personally offended by it, because i've never had to deal with that sort of racism. But it's a bit mad, or perhaps naive, to not see that this is objectively racist. And I wonder how many lads here would be totally comfortable strolling through upper Harlem wearing that outfit.

Particularly silly from a player playing for one of the most racially divided national teams in the world.

And I don't think he personally was being purposefully racist, he was just guilty of being ignorant and naive. Lads, past events by some really shitty people have made certain things just totally off-limits for the forseeable future, and blackface is one of them. Maybe in 100+ years when race is no longer a completely and totally defining factor on every aspect of someone's life, then we can all have a joke about it, but we're a million miles away from that right now.

fish fingers

Lukker- wrote: »

Could a foreign club get done for tapping up Griezmann? I thought you could only get punished for tapping up a player from the same league.

They are in the same league

Dearg81

~Rebel~ wrote:

And it's not about any individuals here being offended - I'm not personally offended by it, because i've never had to deal with that sort of racism. But it's a bit mad, or perhaps naive, to not see that this is objectively racist. And I wonder how many lads here would be totally comfortable strolling through upper Harlem wearing that outfit.

You mentioned it being objectively racist but if you are looking at the incident objectively then you shouldn't be influenced or biased by history. You should look at in isolation and in this case it was just someone dressing up as someone else in a naive innocent way unaware of the history of blackface. It's a politically incorrect naive thing to do but it's definitely not objectively racist.

Lukker-

fish fingers wrote: »

They are in the same league

I'm aware of that, just wondering if a PL club made an illegal approach would it have the same ramifications.

~Rebel~

Dearg81 wrote: »

You mentioned it being objectively racist but if you are looking at the incident objectively then you shouldn't be influenced or biased by history. You should look at in isolation and in this case it was just someone dressing up as someone else in a naive innocent way unaware of the history of blackface. It's a politically incorrect naive thing to do but it's definitely not objectively racist.

I would argue that looking at it objectively entails not allowing any personal feelings or viewpoints to skew your own point of view.

And I would argue that to look at blackface without taking into account the context and history of it, is to look at it like a child for the first time. And if that were the case, I wouldn't complain about them, but merely explain the context so they would know better in future. But, objectively, for any adult who is well aware of the racism of the world to do it just displays extreme naivety.

I would go past 'politically incorrect', and simply say 'incorrect'. I don't think he was being objectively racist, I think he was being naive, doing an objectively racist act without realizing the consequences.

Barlett

It's nothing to do with snowflake generations or any nonsense like that. There are some things that you just can't do because of the history that surrounds them. Would the same people who think this is ok, have no problem with someone rocking up with a swastika painted on them? Afterall it's just a random sign?

Griezmann is not a racist, he's just another gobsh1te (albeit fantastic footballer) completely ignorant of the world he lives in and any idiot like that will get bitten now and again.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Actually can't believe how many people seem to think blackface is grand. And even more astonished how many people think it's even remotely comparable to a black person in white makeup. Just ignoring the entire history and context of blackface and black history.

Gave up trying to make the point long ago. Just learned to accept there are people dumb enough to think pointing to White Chicks is a complete defence to this, and you could stand in front of them and explain it for an hour and they still would say "...but...but...White Chicks..."

niallo27

Deleted User wrote: »

Gave up trying to make the point long ago. Just learned to accept there are people dumb enough to think pointing to White Chicks is a complete defence to this, and you could stand in front of them and explain it for an hour and they still would say "...but...but...White Chicks..."

Are you actually offended by this yourself.