Griezmann

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Gave up trying to make the point long ago. Just learned to accept there are people dumb enough to think pointing to White Chicks is a complete defence to this, and you could stand in front of them and explain it for an hour and they still would say "...but...but...White Chicks..."

Good job we have you here to keep us all in line.

Good work.

niallo27

niallo27 wrote: »

Are you actually offended by this yourself.

Not so much offended, surprised that a person could get into his late 20s and not realise that blackface is just...no.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not so much offended, surprised that a person could get into his late 20s and not realise that blackface is just...no.

Out of interest was he wearing white lipstick

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Out of interest was he wearing white lipstick

Did he do the exaggerated lips thing too?

Dear God...

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did he do the exaggerated lips thing too?

Dear God...

That's what blackface is if you put it into historical context. I checked the picture again and he didn't do so

So in a nutshell you keep referring to what greizmann done as blackface

NIMAN

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Particularly silly from a player playing for one of the most racially divided national teams in the world.

Perhaps more politically/culturally divided teams?

Safe to say they are all from the same race.

CalamariFritti

Wasn't really following this thread but what always interested me was the following: When we dress up as something or someone, for example fancy dress party, are we saying a white guy can never dress up as Will Smith or Mike Tyson or Jackie Chan? Because that in itself seems fairly innocent I would think. People dress up as celebrities like Madonna or Fellaini or Trump all the time. And then of course dressing up as Will Smith or Mike Tyson wouldn't be much of a success if you just kept your ginger hair and freckly face on would it? So we're saying dressing up as someone your own race is innocent but dressing up as someone of another race is inherently racist? Because of 'context'?

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

That's what blackface is if you put it into historical context. I checked the picture again and he didn't do so

So in a nutshell you keep referring to what greizmann done as blackface

Well...ummmm...it was blackface...even if he didn't do the exaggerated lips or jazz hands.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well...ummmm...it was blackface...even if he didn't do the exaggerated lips or jazz hands.

Is it? Why?

CalamariFritti

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Wasn't really following this thread but what always interested me was the following: When we dress up as something or someone, for example fancy dress party, are we saying a white guy can never dress up as Will Smith or Mike Tyson or Jackie Chan? Because that in itself seems fairly innocent I would think. People dress up as celebrities like Madonna or Fellaini or Trump all the time. And then of course dressing up as Will Smith or Mike Tyson wouldn't be much of a success if you just kept your ginger hair and freckly face on would it? So we're saying dressing up as someone your own race is innocent but dressing up as someone of another race is inherently racist? Because of 'context'?

Of course it's about the historical context. If an Irishman dressed up in top hat, tux and monocle to ape the Victorian English look, that would be fine, if an Englishman dressed up in rags and carried a potato to symbolise the Irish of the time we might object. Because of history, oppression, the use of one image to characterise the other as savages etc.

Again, it's hard to think this stuff is not understood. Are people being deliberately obtuse with the "well if a person dresses as a white man" line?

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Is it? Why?

Blackface is non black people using make up to represent a black person.

What colour is Griezmann..and what colour was his face in the pic?

CalamariFritti

Yes I am being deliberately obtuse. Because ultimately the goal of overcoming racial divide is gaining normality. Normality means to me that a black fella can dress up as Obi Wan Kenobi if he likes and I can dress up as Finn without anyone batting an eyelid. By being overly sensitive and protective we actually prevent normality from happening. We are trying to be extra good but what we're really doing is we're keeping the divide alive in my opinion.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Blackface is non black people using make up to represent a black person.

What colour is Griezmann..and what colour was his face in the pic?

You are saying that Blackface historically from pre 1960s racial stereotypes and happened in actual live performances is the same thing Greizmann done the other day when he dressed up as a basketball player who happened to be black.

Again this is you saying this, I'm just questioning it.

Trigger

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course it's about the historical context. If an Irishman dressed up in top hat, tux and monocle to ape the Victorian English look, that would be fine, if an Englishman dressed up in rags and carried a potato to symbolise the Irish of the time we might object. Because of history, oppression, the use of one image to characterise the other as savages etc.

Again, it's hard to think this stuff is not understood. Are people being deliberately obtuse with the "well if a person dresses as a white man" line?

If an englishman dressed up as Robbie Keane, is that racist? He didn’t dress up as a minstrel, or any symbol of oppression, he dressed up as a basketball player.

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

You are saying that Blackface historically from pre 1960s racial stereotypes and happened in actual live performances is the same thing Greizmann done the other day when he dressed up as a basketball player who happened to be black.

Again this is you saying this, I'm just questioning it.

Well, me and many others. And he has apologised for it.

astradave wrote: »

He didn’t dress up as a minstrel, or any symbol of oppression, he dressed up as a basketball player.

Do you think only minstrel type blackface is objectionable? Why so narrow a focus?

CalamariFritti

CalamariFritti wrote: »

We are trying to be extra good but what we're really doing is we're keeping the divide alive in my opinion.

Just in case I'm missing anything, you actually think the objection to blackface is a more significant factor in keeping racism alive than blackface itself?

IncognitoMan

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Yes I am being deliberately obtuse. Because ultimately the goal of overcoming racial divide is gaining normality. Normality means to me that a black fella can dress up as Obi Wan Kenobi if he likes and I can dress up as Finn without anyone batting an eyelid. By being overly sensitive and protective we actually prevent normality from happening. We are trying to be extra good but what we're really doing is we're keeping the divide alive in my opinion.

I remember a couple of years back some interviewer asked Morgan Freeman how do you overcome racism and his answer was to simply not make it a big deal anymore. To not mark black people or their culture out as different but simply as just American culture.

Not being racist is treating all races the same. So actually I feel it's pretty racist to say you can't dress up as a black man because you are not a black man.

Now I'm offended by all the racist remarks on show in this thread over the last few days, and I think those posters should apologize really.

Shanotheslayer

astradave wrote: »

If an englishman dressed up as Robbie Keane, is that racist? He didn’t dress up as a minstrel, or any symbol of oppression, he dressed up as a basketball player.

Why couldn't he dress up as a white basketball player?

IncognitoMan

IncognitoMan wrote: »

So actually I feel it's pretty racist to say you can't dress up as a black man because you are not a black man.

And you are entitled to that belief.

I disagree with it. I'm comfortable with a society where it's largely seen as unacceptable, you simply do not see it represented any more and when it does occur, there is immediate criticism and the person often apologises.

It seems like a lot of people are out of step with you. Which of course doesn't make you wrong, just that you may have to appreciate why people see blackface as racist per se.

CalamariFritti

Deleted User wrote: »

Just in case I'm missing anything, you actually think the objection to blackface is a more significant factor in keeping racism alive than blackface itself?

Maybe I should have been clearer. What I'm saying is that it appears to be preventing normality in its own way.

And don't get me wrong I'm not saying context doesn't exist and that it's a clear cut thing. But the aspired end state would be when dressing up as someone of another race had no baggage. For anyone. Can we agree on that?

And if we could agree on that then it would become clear what I meant.