Forum Update

DubTony

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ah will you give over - every generation thinks that the next generation are useless and lazy. You have admitted that you don't contribute here anymore - maybe if you and others kicked it up a notch the forum wouldn't be in such a poor condition?

Way to take it out of context. No problem. Maybe I'll stick around and suffer some more of your encouragement.

Axwell

daveytheravey wrote: »

keyboard warriors back at it again, somethings never change hahaha! yes did change my name for future endeavours on this website. Cant be holding onto the past forever.

Also would love to meet all of you in person it would a funny experience, because it will be sad when i can't see your faces when i prove ye wrong heheh

Mod Note:

What exactly are you adding to this discussion with this type of post? You have a lot to learn in business and a lot you can learn from people on the forum. Coming on telling them you cant wait to meet them and see the look on their faces is hardly going to encourage anyone to help you or give you advice. Please don't continue taking part in this discussion if you have nothing of value to add - you are also receiving an infraction for your troubles.

Axwell

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ah will you give over - every generation thinks that the next generation are useless and lazy. You have admitted that you don't contribute here anymore - maybe if you and others kicked it up a notch the forum wouldn't be in such a poor condition?

Mod Note:

Likewise not adding anything to the discussion and no need for the personal abuse. DubTony gave an opinion on the part technology plays today and you have taken it completely out of context to turn it into something its not. This is a discussion about improving the forum, not making accusations and finger pointing.

pedroeibar1

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

.....Ah will you give over - every generation thinks that the next generation are useless and lazy. ...

Not really, SLAF but perhaps there is an ‘age’ thing going on and that leads to dissent on the forum?
Peter D’s post here and DubTony’s here contain very valid observations on present day Ireland. (The other Pedro and I are the same age, don't know about DubT.) I disagree with your view that it is ‘ a generational ‘ageist’ thing because this is the first era in which spelling, punctuation and grammar are almost dead in the younger generations. It is not a form of rebelliousness that is eventually grown out of, it has become ingrained ignorance. There was a thread started hereon working as a copywriter. The opening post is grammatically incorrect, lacks capitals and is very poorly punctuated. For a copywriting ‘wannabe’ that truly is remarkable! Two posters gave informed responses and neither was thanked. I had lunch recently with a senior Google person who was complaining about the prevalence of bad (not poor) English, saying +/- “We need people who can write, but it is very, very hard to find them; it is quite easy to teach people the tech stuff but that is difficult with English”.

Returning to Ireland after many years absence the first thing I noticed was the lack of manners and a sense of entitlement. Those two items have become rampant in Irish society and on this forum, with many posters expecting everything to be done for them and all in a sycophantic manner agreeing (of course) with their latest daft notions. Go stay a weekend in any of the better hotels and just watch the ill-mannered behaviour of those with money and their sense of entitlement. (And that is just the adults.) That is probably worth a thread of its own!

Trojan

There's no great conspiracy from the company trying to prevent experts posting good information here.

This forum is dying for a much simpler reason: because of the lack of any kind of community. Individual forums live and die on boards by the nature of the community that springs up.

Here, the ongoing approach is to be relentlessly negative, a so called "tough love" approach that many regulars believe is the only right way to answer queries from prospective entrepreneurs. "Business is tough, if you can't handle this then get the hell out of the forum."

It is possible to give constructive criticism and information, e.g. DubTony's posts are a great example of critical but helpful replies, but this attitude is few and far between in posts from our "dragons".

I know I'm in the minority and will be on the receiving end of the "tough love" for expressing this contrary opinion. Fire away.

The former peterdalkey

It is interesting to note that the self same dragon posters respond succinctly to well drawn OPs but less so to lazy, zero researched queries . Equally, ill informed response posts by others are likely to draw unflattering replies. Business is a serious matter and responses such as , well I am not sure but I think the position is X, should be firmly booted into touch along with advice from school kids etc, as has happened before. The is a huge difference between a querist who seeks opinions and one seeking factual advice.
For example, you will never see the likes of retail experts Jimmii or Vince embroiled in a spat with any of the other so called dragons. Nor generally between any of the widely experienced other "dragons" . They respect the proven expertise and experience of each other, and
give great solid advice.

Silverbling

Starting a business is hard both financially and emotionally I am sure when we all started out we had some stupid questions too

This forum should be like a networking group, give advice, help each other out and offer tips.

There are some great new businesses out there and some totally bonkers that you think will never work but they do, and with online commerce there are wobbles on the way which should be supported not dismissed

Different ideas and approaches to the same problem are part of being an entrepreneur, one person is never always right when it comes to someone else's business ideas (or even their own!)

jimmii

There's really just two types of people who post here the people who stop by every now and then with their more just curious type questions who might start up a hobby business but probably not and there's the posters who have one or more revenue streams and this is their life. We just need to figure out a way for the one forum to be able to cater for both groups. For people who come here from the later group its easy to understand why it can be frustrating when every other thread is super straight forward stuff about tax or registering a company.

I try to respond to any threads where I think the OP has a genuine query even if they are just spitballing. There is definitely an issue with people just coming in posting once and then never checking back in but thats going to be hard to stop even if there is a business questions thread or sub people will likely not pay attention to it.

Maybe if there was a thread for general business questions and then if any new ones started were moved to there each time then over time people might get used to that or would that be too much of a time sink? Another benefit of this would be that it would hopefully be quite a busy thread meaning it would constantly be popping up on the homepage which would hopefully drive more traffic this way.

I think the forum is definitely lost as well. Recently I directed a regular poster to a forum which has some of the busiest threads on the site especially on the weekend but they were never even aware of it despite it being very relevant to what they were working on so what chance does a little forum like this have to be found by people who may be looking for it? There's little we can do about that though I guess.

pedroeibar1

Trojan wrote: »

There's no great conspiracy from the company trying to prevent experts posting good information here.

Nobody said that AFAIK. Where did you get that notion?

Trojan wrote: »

This forum is dying for a much simpler reason: because of the lack of any kind of community. Individual forums live and die on boards by the nature of the community that springs up.

I agree. The community aspect never developed because too much dross was & is allowed fester. The fact that post count already is pushing 70 + and viewcount is heading towards 3,000 on this thread speaks for itself – it’s been a long time since that happened anywhere on this forum (Boards.ie must be loving this.) Clearly there is an interest in developing a community and this forum. However, it has been pointed out on several occasions over several years that the charter needs upgrading to assist in minimizing stupid posts/posters. That has not happened, so the charter effectively is 14 years old (look at the last update comment!)

It also is sad to see the usual idiots congratulating each other – if for e.g. one of the Pedros is criticized for being ‘harsh’, the lightweights rush in with the thumbs-up sign, regarless of the stupidity of the poster's comment.

Trojan wrote: »

Here, the ongoing approach is to be relentlessly negative, a so called "tough love" approach that many regulars believe is the only right way to answer queries from prospective entrepreneurs. "Business is tough, if you can't handle this then get the hell out of the forum."
It is possible to give constructive criticism and information, e.g. DubTony's posts are a great example of critical but helpful replies, but this attitude is few and far between in posts from our "dragons".

I disagree. Why should a responder wrap up a comment in cotton wool and give an obvious timewaster a nice cuddly response? For example, a one post wonder wrote HERE about ‘pre-pack administrations’. I asked a couple of pointed questions, no response, yet OP got a good detailed response form AO’L and has not been back or acknowledged it. Again, on the ‘wonder’ who wants to attend an EGM but is afraid to do so, I give a succinct response, the OP never reverts and nine (9) days later AO’L gives the same response, in more detail. Similarly another clearly was trying to defraud Revenue, I ask him/her a one liner question, no response but OP later gets an epistle (helpful) on how the system works. Thoseresponses were great, and how those guys respond is their business – but I will stick to brief responses and call it as I see it.

Trojan wrote: »

I know I'm in the minority and will be on the receiving end of the "tough love" for expressing this contrary opinion. Fire away.

It’s not tough love; do a bit of research on the poster first by looking at past posts and you learn a lot. Critical comment, positive or negative, always is good advice, on here it is free, so it usually is short and not always sugarcoated.

meforever

I was here some years ago and had a lot of respect for the wealth of knowledge available here. The best was that most were Irish and one could relate like with like situations. Unfortunately these days, it does come down to relevant content and good interaction between ALL forum members. I have used only one other forum on a daily basis as an Entrepreneur. It has very strict rules....No Politics.....No religion.....No nonsense ....No trolling ....to mention just a few. It is for Entrepreneurs only so it has a definite target market. As mentioned by Peter the "Tell Tale Signs" of a dated forum scream at you when you go to the lead page ...Just my 2 cents worth.

EndaHonesty

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It’s not tough love; do a bit of research on the poster first by looking at past posts and you learn a lot. Critical comment, positive or negative, always is good advice, on here it is free, so it usually is short and not always sugarcoated.

A bit of research of your past posts throughout boards certainly tells a lot.
You seem to come into conflict with other posters in other forums on a regular basis.

You and the other pedro have done more to damage the forum than anyone else.
I would say many people are now afraid to post here for fear of the response from you two.

Wrap it up anyway you want but the pedro brand of arrogant, patronising, condescending posts are not "critical comment" they are simply rude.

If you think a post is stupid you should just ignore it, not jump on the poster like a rabid dog.

Hanley

2 years ago I looked at what some of the posters said and thought "jesus.. that was a bit harsh".

Recently, I've had a few guys ask me about how to open their own gym etc etc and upon discussion didn't have the first clue about anything. Not a crime in itself of course, BUT here's the issue (and I'm guessing this is why people are so blunt on the forum sometimes...):

Not only are you putting YOUR financial security on the line, but you're also effecting your family.

Not only are you effecting your family, you're also asking your landlord to take a risk on you, and since you never know THEIR position, you're taking a responsibility for their financial security too.

Not only that, but your suppliers enter into this with you. AND your create a risk of loss or damage for your customers too.

In addition, you also create reputational risk for the industry you're in, which effects every player from big to small in that industry.

I think if people understood the conversation happening in the back of the "dragons" (sorry!) heads, they'd be a lot less upset by it.

Business is very cutthroat. And sure, you can be very polite and kind, but sometimes you're better served just taking the legs out from someone and really forcing them to consider if its what they REALLY want.

It's not an approach I'd take, but I can see why others do

The former peterdalkey

EndaHonesty wrote: »

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It s not tough love; do a bit of research on the poster first by looking at past posts and you learn a lot. Critical comment, positive or negative, always is good advice, on here it is free, so it usually is short and not always sugarcoated.

A bit of research of your past posts throughout boards certainly tells a lot.
You seem to come into conflict with other posters in other forums on a regular basis.

You and the other pedro have done more to damage the forum than anyone else.
I would say many people are now afraid to post here for fear of the response from you two.

Wrap it up anyway you want but the pedro brand of arrogant, patronising, condescending posts are not "critical comment" they are simply rude.

If you think a post is stupid you should just ignore it, not jump on the poster like a rabid dog.

What about all the posts where they gave sound expert quality advice? If you don't like their posts, don't read them!

duploelabs

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Wrap it up anyway you want but the pedro brand of arrogant, patronising, condescending posts are not "critical comment" they are simply rude.

Not to mention trolling posters on other subs if they disagree with Pedro's point of view, very childish considering they're styling themselves as one of the dragons here

meforever

Any forum must take a stance of helping those that have taken time out of their busy life to even have a look inside. If anyone asks inappropriate questions, then the Mods must lock the thread but with a cool head and an explanation, leaving it there for other newbies to see and learn from. Business does not have to be cut throat folks. There is an endless supply of money being printed 24/7 in every country in the world. Relax, boys and girls there is plenty to go around! Pull up a chair and converse as you would to your best friend because ironically if all goes well over time this will happen. As business owners we must communicate with others in our space as the Entrepreneurial road is a hard and often lonely road. Most people just don`t get US as we are an odd breed. Business is all about building good relationships by using your best communication skills. Not about blaming or judging. I would prefer to learn than to teach, but if I do teach it is from the standpoint that perhaps I can add some value to someone in their situation. Indian proverb....."If you want to go fast do it alone....If you want to go far do it together. I look forward to your comments. There is an opportunity to salvage this platform and turn it into a national platform with a regional meetups to add more value to the community.

StupidLikeAFox

DubTony wrote: »

Way to take it out of context. No problem. Maybe I'll stick around and suffer some more of your encouragement.

Hi, I genuinely apologise if I caused any offence - I appreciate that part of my post came across a bit ratty. I was posting on my mobile, I didnt want to quote your whole post so just whipped out that bit in the middle.



Just to reiterate the overarching point I was making though, there are lots of people complaining here about poor content, but at the same time they are not making the effort to create that content and kick off those discussions. If there were higher quality threads being created, that would lead to higher quality conversations and in turn attract a better standard of new posters (imo)

gargargar

I used to contribute a lot more here (under a different login). I would rarely enough now, and I would think it is largely to do with poor quality questions.

As someone remarked above a lot can be like 'How do run a pub' or 'Importing x from china'. The kind of items that either too expansive a question, or smacks of someone just throwing an idea out there that they are half hearted about.

I would agree that some responses are a bit acidic at times, but to be fair to the posters they are taking the time to post! Perhaps if those questions could be closed or redirected it may help.

DubTony

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Hi, I genuinely apologise if I caused any offence - I appreciate that part of my post came across a bit ratty. I was posting on my mobile, I didnt want to quote your whole post so just whipped out that bit in the middle.



Just to reiterate the overarching point I was making though, there are lots of people complaining here about poor content, but at the same time they are not making the effort to create that content and kick off those discussions. If there were higher quality threads being created, that would lead to higher quality conversations and in turn attract a better standard of new posters (imo)

Yeah, you'd have to be up real early to find a way to offend me . Apology accepted.

There are lots of people complaining about poor content. "Bad" advice can be a lack of knowledge, confusion, carelessness or just not giving a crap, and it doesn't help anyone, but "bad" questions are just stupid. So you're right. The problem is how to fix that. If we've got genuine questions from genuine people with genuine problems that can't be fixed with a simple search, the quality of answers is more likely to improve.

"Who supplies crisps in Ireland?" is going to (quite rightly?) meet with derision and possibly abuse. But we can hardly dictate how somebody opens a conversation. Adjustments or an overhaul to the charter wouldn't matter as nobody reads the thing anyway. So I suppose we have to suck it up and help where we can. But then we fall into the trap of being the place that won't be taken seriously and where people only ask stupid questions. If we answer stupid questions with a slagging off the forum becomes a place where nobody dares ask a question.

Bit of a catch 22. But my experience has been that this type of forum can be the same anywhere. I found a huge American one a few years ago filled with the most almighty shite.

Now can somebody explain what's the difference between gross profit and EBITDA?

dudara

gargargar wrote: »

As someone remarked above a lot can be like 'How do run a pub' or 'Importing x from china'. The kind of items that either too expansive a question, or smacks of someone just throwing an idea out there that they are half hearted about.

I would agree that some responses are a bit acidic at times, but to be fair to the posters they are taking the time to post! Perhaps if those questions could be closed or redirected it may help.

Counter argument here - let's say a semi-harebrained poster comes in, posts their semi-thought through question, and gets a constructive response. Perhaps, and maybe just perhaps, they might actually take something on board and come back with better questions. If they don't, we just let the thread drift downwards. I personally don't want to shoot/close down every thread that doesn't fit the mould.

gargargar

It will depend on whether you could be bothered to reply to the basic broad queries. I can see the point on the problem of relying on a mod to decide on the quality of a question before shutting it down. Seems a bit arbitrary.

The former peterdalkey

@trojan. If you study the forum you will see that the OPs are generally transient and the respondents are the regulars./community.....where is the scope?

80 posts on and most of the negative sentiment is expressed by those berating negative/harsh posters.... Good that!

Spats rarely break out with the OP but rather with the ever ready to be outraged who jump in to have a go at their pet nemesis, but rarely over content.

I intend to try an experiment by using PMs to interact with posters, perhaps a couple of others will join in. This should deny the ever ready to be outraged oxygen.

StupidLikeAFox

The former peterdalkey wrote: »

I intend to try an experiment by using PMs to interact with posters, perhaps a couple of others will join in. This should deny the ever ready to be outraged oxygen.

Tbh this will only contribute to the decline of the forum - surely if you have a useful reply it is better giving it on the thread where it may provoke a bit of discussion, maybe even some disagreement?

The former peterdalkey

Only one way to find out!

tricky D

Using PMs just kills discussion, doesn't allow for oversight, denies interested parties the ability to passively observe and learn, creates an us and them (bad) vibe, so the result is plain bad for the forum and its users. I've seen it done many times before and it almost always happens. Private forums, suggested earlier also have a similar effect which why DeVore knocked that idea on the head a while back in another forum/context. Similar for approved/elevated posters. Ideally in a perfect world, an advising poster's history should speak for the merit of the advice.

Forums like this will always have issues such as stupid threads and posters, poor or no research done, advice ignored, contributor fatigue, ill-temperedness, natural cycles/phases, not bothering to use search - but that's the way of the Internet, Life, The Universe and Everything which won't change ever.

As for charters, there's a bit of a joke that only mods and a very few 'good' users read them but that is largely true a la nobody really reads T&Cs, so I wouldn't see any revamp solving much. I haven't had a look at the charter here recently so I'm not sure what's up or down with it.

Personally I stopped posting much here mainly on web matters as I simply got a fed up with spending time, skill and experience contributing only for it to be too often ignored.

Bandara

The former peterdalkey wrote: »

@trojan. If you study the forum you will see that the OPs are generally transient and the respondents are the regulars./community.....where is the scope?

80 posts on and most of the negative sentiment is expressed by those berating negative/harsh posters.... Good that!

Spats rarely break out with the OP but rather with the ever ready to be outraged who jump in to have a go at their pet nemesis, but rarely over content.

I intend to try an experiment by using PMs to interact with posters, perhaps a couple of others will join in. This should deny the ever ready to be outraged oxygen.

Peter I can see this resulting in people with no experience or knowledge advising new business people on things they know nothing about.

If I ask about opening a bookshop and I receive a email from someone telling me to go for steel shelves as although they are twice the price they keep the books from fading (or some such similar example) I may very well take this on board and go and spend double on my shelving as a result of the advice from a so called expert who in fact knows nothing.

But if the same advice was posted on the open forum then someone like yourself could step in and explain that this advice is completely incorrect and save me a fortune

I know my example is a bit silly but you get the general idea

Some of the flat out statements of fact I have seen made here by people relating to my own area of expertise were so incredibly wrong I can ably assume they were posted by people who's depth of knowledge on the subject equals to using Google.

The forum content is some what validated by the presence of experts in each field.

By going direct with a PM you risk letting the empty vessels influence the newbies who need guidance or help

pedroeibar1

dudara wrote: »

Counter argument here - let's say a semi-harebrained poster comes in, posts their semi-thought through question, and gets a constructive response. Perhaps, and maybe just perhaps, they might actually take something on board and come back with better questions. If they don't, we just let the thread drift downwards. I personally don't want to shoot/close down every thread that doesn't fit the mould.

Lots of posters do that and are helped. For example, I got so sick of seeing posts on whether or not to be a sole trader / Ltd Co / Partnership that I wrote a detailed post on the pros/cons- a newbie posts, gets a stupid answer and I contribute . Then what then happens? just look at this thread!. Other posters often send newbies to look at it and some have suggested it should be 'stickied'. (BTW, nothing has happened on that front, is it sheer apathy?

If a poster is 'lost' it is quite obvious (to me anyway) and I will help if I have somethig to contribute. I 'kickstarted' Hanley's Gym thread because it was a well-written Q and deserved a response . I made general marketing management type observations and then others with appropriate fitness/gym/PT expertise joined so I dropped out as they knew more than me.
Now, just look at the follow-on responses (and the merits/sense of each) from this post

pedroeibar1

Bandara wrote: »

Peter I can see this resulting in people with no experience or knowledge advising new business people on things they know nothing about. ........By going direct with a PM you risk letting the empty vessels influence the newbies who need guidance or help

I agree with you on that. If a start-up wants private advice from me they pay for it; if a newbie wants advice and by giving it I wil benefit the greated community I will give it publicly, free.
(And as an aside, a question in my key area of expertise has yet to arise!)

Gloomtastic!

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

(And as an aside, a question in my key area of expertise has yet to arise!)

Care to enlighten us?

The former peterdalkey

Going PM is a concious decision specifically focussed on it's disruptive impact. If you don't like the game, change it. Repeating ineffective efforts never changes outcomes. I can easily make a list with whom it will grate on here (PM for your copy)

Deub

Using PMs will go against the goal of an online forum.
I don't contribute because I don't have any experience in creating/managing/growing a business. However it is one of my goals and reading the different threads help me to understand the issues people are facing and how it was resolved By other posters. if there are no threads because people are replying by PMs. I would stop following it.