Season 6 Episode 3 "Oathbreaker" - "Book readers"

FunLover18

So I've been thinking, and apologies if this has been mentioned before, but could the Umbers be replacing the Manderleys on TV? The way I see it with Roose dead, Ramsey is the last Bolton and if he dies the North will return to the Stark-loyalists and the Umbers now conveniently have a Stark. Also, if they had Rickon why wait till Roose was dead? Was it mentioned they'd only just found him?

karma_

FunLover18 wrote: »

So I've been thinking, and apologies if this has been mentioned before, but could the Umbers be replacing the Manderleys on TV? The way I see it with Roose dead, Ramsey is the last Bolton and if he dies the North will return to the Stark-loyalists and the Umbers now conveniently have a Stark. Also, if they had Rickon why wait till Roose was dead? Was it mentioned they'd only just found him?

I think this is a cert now, I also think the Karstarks are in on it as well. There is only one way Smalljon Umber could have known for sure that Ramsey offed Roose and that was from Lord Karstark for there is no way the Maester would have dared to cross Ramsey.

ibarelycare

intheclouds wrote: »

And where the blazes is Littlefinger? And Bronn?

Littlefinger will be in the next episode according to the trailer.

I know this is probably wishful thinking, but I also thought that wasn't really Shaggydog's head (it was tiny for one) and that the Umbers are still allied with the Starks and bringing Rickon there was a plan to get a Stark back in Winterfell. But then it would be a very risky move because of how psychotic and unpredictable Ramsay is so I dunno

Baggly

I wonder what accent Littlefinger will have this time....

podgemonster

From the highs of the last episode we again slow down the pace to develop the build up to this seasons multiple climaxes. This isn't an episode I'd re-watch on it's own in the years to come.

Castle Black is by far the most interesting place in the show this season. The awakening of Lord Snow, the execution of the traitors. All done so well. Love how Jon gets progressively more upset as he faces all 4 traitors and really struggles to look at Olly. Thorne goes out with his head held high.

Nothing really happened in KL but we learnt a few things (Birds, Queen of Thorns in the house, Ser Gregor, Mace is back) So i'll presume for now that is all relevant for the things to come. Tommen is being played like a fiddle by the high sparrow, pulled and twisted by those around him with sweet words and stories. We finally see how defiant Kevan Lannister is towards Cersei and Jaime.

Also no one asked where is Meyrn Fúcking Trant is?

Smalljon was an absolute badass, hugh physical presence . Took no rubbish from Ramsay and even called Karstark a pedophile. Fantastic. Very careful not to swear any oaths, bend any knees but instead distracts Ramsay with a gift. Very unclear what Smalljons intentions are and if that really is Shaggydog (I really hope not). If it is a ploy to overthrow Ramsay, gifting him the only known remaining heir of Winterfell on a plate isn't the most cautious of plans.

Vary's interrogation scene was neat. So gentle and kind yet he threatens without needing to say anything.

A few things I did not like:
Dany's story this week was pure filler nothing that could have waited until next week really. Left me very unsatisfied.
Similar with Tyrion's awkward conversation with Melisande and Grey worm, pointless. With only 10 hours of GoT a year I do not get spending so much time on pointless scenes that fall flat.

Finally the ToJ
By far one of my most favourite passages in the books. Written beautifully. There's a battle of words before the battle of swords that is so poetic. For some reason they edited this down to my disappointment.
They made of for it with a pretty awesome 5v2 Sword fight that was excellent albeit a bit show-offy. Many complain that Bloodraven cockblocked us in the end but then again so did GRRM in the books so we still don't know what's in that tower yet.

Liam O

With Kevan back do we reckon Varys will be the latest character to disappear for 5 episodes and come back for his big moment as winter reaches KL? Or will they go another way with it?

MarkR

Best part of episode. Tormund and the small cock joke.

intheclouds

MarkR wrote: »

Best part of episode. Tormund and the small cock joke.

But I would have preferred if he had used the word cock rather than pecker.

Pecker just sounded wrong to me.

Ciaran_B

podgemonster wrote: »

Very unclear what Smalljons intentions are and if that really is Shaggydog (I really hope not). If it is a ploy to overthrow Ramsay, gifting him the only known remaining heir of Winterfell on a plate isn't the most cautious of plans.

I don't think it's a plot sadly. They need a reason for Jon to leave the wall and head to Winterfell, in the books it's 'Arya' but that's not a runner in the show. So I'd say they've brought Rickon back as a plot device. I hope I'm wrong.

FunLover18

Ciaran_B wrote: »

I don't think it's a plot sadly. They need a reason for Jon to leave the wall and head to Winterfell, in the books it's 'Arya' but that's not a runner in the show. So I'd say they've brought Rickon back as a plot device. I hope I'm wrong.

Do they though? Surely from the last line we can gather that he's already leaving.

PIORUN

this Stark musical chairs is becoming very frustrating. Arya arrives at wedding but mother and brother killed, Bran meets Sam but just misses Jon, Sansa flees Winterfell Rickons arrives, Sansa heads to the Wall Jon just leaves....next Jon arrives at Winterfell Rickon is killed.

Jofspring

For Jon Snow I think avenging Ned Stark could be a good enough reason? He wanted to do it when he first joined the watch but managed to hold his vows not to get involved. He also thinks Bran and Rickon were murdered by Theon doesn't he? Another reason to head south. He also knows that Winterfell is taken by the Boltons so another reason. He might also want to warn people about the White Walkers.

Another mention about getting lost forever when warging makes me think they are definitely heading down that path with Hordor.

The umbers most definitely have something up their sleeve. I reckon they have some kind of story to convince Ramsay to keep Rickon alive. I can see Ramsay standing at Winterfell waiting for the arrival of Jon Snow with Rickon tied up beside him only for the Karstarks and the Umbers to turn on the Boltons with a "The North Remembers" line again. Jon will leave Rickon in control of Winterfell as the next in line with Bran gone and Sansa being a girl. I can see that being Shaggydog alright because smalljohn would have chopped off his head just to make sure Ramsay believed him, even if it wasn't what Rickon wanted.

intheclouds

Jofspring wrote: »

He also thinks Bran and Rickon were murdered by Theon doesn't he?

Did Sam not tell him Bran is alive and was heading north of the wall?

Jofspring

intheclouds wrote: »

Did Sam not tell him Bran is alive and was heading north of the wall?

I'm a bit cloudy about that. I know Sam knows they are alive but I wasn't sure if he told Jon in the show because he didn't in the book.

FunLover18

Jofspring wrote: »

I'm a bit cloudy about that. I know Sam knows they are alive but I wasn't sure if he told Jon in the show because he didn't in the book.

I'm 99% sure he told Jon

Ben Gadot

In the chance Smalljon is playing Ramsay and the question of why he would gamble Rickon's life, the only answer I'd have is that it's all at the behest of Rickon. Osha is bringing the wildness out in him. But unfortunately I'd maintain what we're seeing is what we're getting: show Umbers are snakes.

I don't see Varys returning to KL but I can see an absolute blood bath in King's Landing by the end of the season between the Sparrows, Tyrell Army, Cersei's plotting and even possibly a Dorn invasion.

And I don't think Jon has literally left Castle Black there at the end of the episode, he'll be there when Sansa arrives.

Sleepy

intheclouds wrote: »

Did Sam not tell him Bran is alive and was heading north of the wall?

Yep, Sam told him in the TV Series.

jones

Bambi wrote: »

You come at the lord commander you best not miss homes :mad:

Combining The Wire and Game of Thrones...do things get any better? :cool:

awec

Anyone else find themselves really confused at this point between the books and the TV series?

I keep remembering plots but then I'm left wondering if that happened in the book or happened in the show.

jones

awec wrote: »

Anyone else find themselves really confused at this point between the books and the TV series?

I keep remembering plots but then I'm left wondering if that happened in the book or happened in the show.

Big time I keep getting them mixed up

nicki11

Rewatching the vision part of the episode you can clearly hear Lyanna?/a woman scream twice, firstly after Daynes death and then again before Ned goes into the tower after Bran whispers. Whether or not its the R & L = J theory being realised it doesn't look good for Lyanna. I also noticed there was only two Kingsguard present even though in the books there was three. I'm wondering if thats what happened, if the theory is correct or if its not whats the story with there only being two of them. Is the third helping or harming her because I'm fairly sure she wouldn't be screaming like that over her brother coming to rescue her.

I also found it odd how much they focused on Bran saying thats not what he heard happened but theres no reason to believe Ned lied as he doesn't have the kind of personality that would lead you to believe he'd take credit for something he didn't do. If anything he seemed to regret Arthurs death and the dishonorable way he died could account for that (Ned's all about the honor). I don't doubt he probably didn't tell anyone the whole story (theory, dishonorable death) but I doubt Ned changed so much that he could be mistaken for being the wild wolf of the family.

Jofspring

awec wrote: »

Anyone else find themselves really confused at this point between the books and the TV series?

I keep remembering plots but then I'm left wondering if that happened in the book or happened in the show.

Pretty much all the time. I really-read the last few books last year so it's fresh enough in my mind and I keep getting confused about what happened in the TV series only and what happened in the book only.

I find myself still forgetting major things from the book also.

amos13

FunLover18 wrote:

Do they though? Surely from the last line we can gather that he's already leaving.

Leaving castle black, yes. Gathering an army and marching on winterfell, no.

The strongest urge in Jon is to protect his siblings. Robb's murder was the reason he tried to abandon the nights watch the first time. He doesn't have any desire for titles or lands and knows as a bastard he won't get them anyway, so the only reason he would March on winterfell is to protect his family.

Jofspring

One huge reason I don't think he was walking out of castle black last night is because he had no coat and would surely freeze his tits off.

amos13

awec wrote:

Anyone else find themselves really confused at this point between the books and the TV series?

Yeah, sometimes. I was sure Robb's will was mentioned in the show but was told a few days ago that was only the books. Still unconvinced ðŸ˜

Baggly

Jofspring wrote: »

One huge reason I don't think he was walking out of castle black last night is because he had no coat and would surely freeze his tits off.

It's a pity Sam wasnt around to give him this.

FunLover18

Jofspring wrote: »

One huge reason I don't think he was walking out of castle black last night is because he had no coat and would surely freeze his tits off.

*Walks back to Edd "Actually, I'm probably going to need that cloak. It's ruddy freezing out there."

amos13

nicki11 wrote:

I also found it odd how much they focused on Bran saying thats not what he heard happened but theres no reason to believe Ned lied as he doesn't have the kind of personality that would lead you to believe he'd take credit for something he didn't do. If anything he seemed to regret Arthurs death and the dishonorable way he died could account for that (Ned's all about the honor). I don't doubt he probably didn't tell anyone the whole story (theory, dishonorable death) but I doubt Ned changed so much that he could be mistaken for being the wild wolf of the family.

Preserving Howlands honour maybe? He was shocked at how Howland had saved him and he did finish Dayne off himself in a more honourable way. The scene in my view was reminding everyone that Ned sometimes lies to protect people....Sansa, Howland....Jon?

nicki11

amos13 wrote: »

Preserving Howlands honour maybe? He was shocked at how Howland had saved him and he did finish Dayne off himself in a more honourable way. The scene in my view was reminding everyone that Ned sometimes lies to protect people....Sansa, Howland....Jon?

Yeah thats what I mean Ned isn't malicous he only lies when its necessary. Look at all the trouble Jaime gets into, for killing the mad king by stabbing him in the back, even though he was insane and dangerous. Arthur Dayne was respected by many people including Ned and from a powerful family. Ned was protecting his friend, like his friend protected him. Plus other then the broad strokes most of the details of the tower were unknown so people probably filled in the gapes themselves which is a good strategy if your trying to hide something .

Sleepy

I'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt that Bran had heard the story from others. Ned wasn't one for boasting and it would seem very out of character for him to have told his children much about his actions in the wars he was part of. He's the classic stoic Lord. He does his duty, does his best to be honourable in all things and would find boasting of old war stories (like we saw Robert and Jaime engage in during Season 1) to be the preserve of puffed up peacocks more interested in their titles than their actions...

Liam O

Reading the other thread just reminds me of how storylines have disappeared from the show. People speculating on Beric Dondarrion having a role to play

PIORUN

intheclouds wrote: »

Did Sam not tell him Bran is alive and was heading north of the wall?

no , I think he told him absolutely nothing about meeting Bran.

Lovely Bloke

nicki11 wrote: »

Rewatching the vision part of the episode you can clearly hear Lyanna?/a woman scream twice, firstly after Daynes death and then again before Ned goes into the tower after Bran whispers. Whether or not its the R & L = J theory being realised it doesn't look good for Lyanna. I also noticed there was only two Kingsguard present even though in the books there was three. I'm wondering if thats what happened, if the theory is correct or if its not whats the story with there only being two of them. Is the third helping or harming her because I'm fairly sure she wouldn't be screaming like that over her brother coming to rescue her.

What? What was happening in that scene was Lyanna was giving birth (probably to twins!) and Ned could hear her screaming, what will happen next is he'll go into the tower and get there just as she's dying, promise to take the male child, and give the female child (if there is one) to Howland.

Liam O

PIORUN wrote: »

no , I think he told him absolutely nothing about meeting Bran.

In the books he keeps shtum. Tells him immediately in the show. I remember it annoying me.

Jon might range north to find Bran sure now

Liam O

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

What? What was happening in that scene was Lyanna was giving birth (probably to twins!) and Ned could hear her screaming, what will happen next is he'll go into the tower and get there just as she's dying, promise to take the male child, and give the female child (if there is one) to Howland.

I only heard the Meera theory for the first time there last week. Bit too outrageous for me but one i want to believe.

joe123

Anyone else a bit pissed off with the whole "little birds" thing? Right throughout Varys has used and talked about his Little birds, gathering intell and knowing everything.

Just so happens, Varys is talking about his little birds and then in the very next scene, we randomly have Qyburn helping a gang of little children, one randomly blurts out "we use to be called little birds" and Qyburn doesnt act the least bit surprised and quite conveniently, he now has the little birds working for him.

Came across as totally cheap story telling, thinking the viewer is an idiot in the way the kid had to literally state what and who they were.

A man as intelligent as Varys, I somehow doubt he would have faith that these kids wouldnt divulge they are his spys/little birds so its ridiuclous that he would have them blurting this type of **** out and secondly, how in the hell did Qyburn seemingly already know these were Varys spies?

Ughhhh just ****ing hated that whole segment. Cheap story telling at its finest.

PIORUN

Liam O wrote: »

In the books he keeps shtum. Tells him immediately in the show. I remember it annoying me.

Jon might range north to find Bran sure now

ah yeah..as someone said earlier, its getting right confusing now between what happened in the books and the show!

Dave0301

joe123 wrote: »

Anyone else a bit pissed off with the whole "little birds" thing? Right throughout Varys has used and talked about his Little birds, gathering intell and knowing everything.

Just so happens, Varys is talking about his little birds and then in the very next scene, we randomly have Qyburn helping a gang of little children, one randomly blurts out "we use to be called little birds" and Qyburn doesnt act the least bit surprised and quite conveniently, he now has the little birds working for him.

Came across as totally cheap story telling, thinking the viewer is an idiot in the way the kid had to literally state what and who they were.

A man as intelligent as Varys, I somehow doubt he would have faith that these kids wouldnt divulge they are his spys/little birds so its ridiuclous that he would have them blurting this type of **** out and secondly, how in the hell did Qyburn seemingly already know these were Varys spies?

Ughhhh just ****ing hated that whole segment. Cheap story telling at its finest.

I think you are getting a bit worked up over it there :pac:

The TV show has to cater to viewers that won't have read the books and be able to pick up on as many of the intricacies the books have developed.

Also, I think the scene, and in particular, the kids saying they were called "little birds" was to hammer home the idea that Qyburn, and therefore Cersei are gathering info on the High Sparrow to make a move against him.

Sleepy

joe123 wrote: »

Anyone else a bit pissed off with the whole "little birds" thing? Right throughout Varys has used and talked about his Little birds, gathering intell and knowing everything.

Just so happens, Varys is talking about his little birds and then in the very next scene, we randomly have Qyburn helping a gang of little children, one randomly blurts out "we use to be called little birds" and Qyburn doesnt act the least bit surprised and quite conveniently, he now has the little birds working for him.

Came across as totally cheap story telling, thinking the viewer is an idiot in the way the kid had to literally state what and who they were.

A man as intelligent as Varys, I somehow doubt he would have faith that these kids wouldnt divulge they are his spys/little birds so its ridiuclous that he would have them blurting this type of **** out and secondly, how in the hell did Qyburn seemingly already know these were Varys spies?

Ughhhh just ****ing hated that whole segment. Cheap story telling at its finest.

Do you remember in Season 1 when Littlefinger was pointing out everyone's spies to Eddard Stark?

As they'd been at "peace" for so long, Kings Landing was a "vipers nest" in pretty much name only. They jockeyed for position and played politics until Baelish started to build his ladder by getting Lysa Arryn to murder her husband. I suspect that prior to this, the Game of Thrones was very much treated as a game, it was almost a past-time for the nobles at court where few actually died, and those who did, were commoners. In such a world, knowing who each others spies were, is probably no great deal, it's a piece of information to use, a pair of ears to whisper misinformation within earshot of rather than someone to be killed off the bat.

joe123

Dave0301 wrote: »

I think you are getting a bit worked up over it there :pac:

The TV show has to cater to viewers that won't have read the books and be able to pick up on as many of the intricacies the books have developed.

Also, I think the scene, and in particular, the kids saying they were called "little birds" was to hammer home the idea that Qyburn, and therefore Cersei are gathering info on the High Sparrow to make a move against him.

Lol im not getting worked up, but im allowed say how ****e that whole part was :pac:

It was very cheap. If they wanted to show Qyburn building a network of spies then sound. No reason to include little birds or how he magically found out who Varys used as his spies.

On another point, someone mentioned Baedric Donarion, didnt he die in the books? He used his "power" or whatever allowed him be brought back, to bring back Lady Stoneheart instead?

I can barely remember it now. I remember thinking during the Jon Snow resurrection that I thought it was mainly down to the person that had this power where they could be brought back and that the red priest was just their aid to activate that power?

Could be totally off with that, but the way they did it in the show, it made it out like anyone and everyone can be brought back provided the priest is able to do it?

ibarelycare

Liam O wrote: »

I only heard the Meera theory for the first time there last week. Bit too outrageous for me but one i want to believe.

I read it too. In the ASOIAF wiki both Meera and Jon have the same birth year, but in the GoT wiki that were born 3 years apart. Although I dunno how the information from the GoT wiki is obtained, do the writers release information like that about the characters?

nicki11

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

What? What was happening in that scene was Lyanna was giving birth (probably to twins!) and Ned could hear her screaming, what will happen next is he'll go into the tower and get there just as she's dying, promise to take the male child, and give the female child (if there is one) to Howland.

Its ambiguous, she could be giving birth or is being kidnapped again or attacked. Theres one missing kingsguard member who Ned is suppoed to have killed at the tower and Lyana is dead. Did she die in childbirth, of murder, accidentally, poison, we don't know for sure. I'm just saying whether she is Jons mother or not, theres one more kingsguard member floating around and we don't know exactly what she died of. I like the Jon theory but we don't know specifics, in this case her death, where the other kingsguard is hiding or what exactly the promise was. "Promise me Ned", the room smelled of "blood and roses" - this is as specific it gets.

intheclouds

I dont really get why it is seen as bad form that Howland Reed stabbed Arthur Dayne in the back to kill him.

I mean the fact is, 5 guys took on 2 guys and they were all trying to kill each other. Im sure Arthur Dayne would happily have taken Howland Reeds head off from behind if the opportunity had arisen.

I mean, it was combat, it was war, people were trying to kill each other, theres no "Queensbury Rules".

Sure, its a shame that someone who was fighting so well was taken out from behind but I dont see it as dishonorable. Maybe if he crept up on him in his sleep and killed him it would be but it was a fight.

intheclouds

nicki11 wrote: »

Its ambiguous, she could be giving birth or is being kidnapped again or attacked. Theres one missing kingsguard member who Ned is suppoed to have killed at the tower and Lyana is dead. Did she die in childbirth, of murder, accidentally, poison, we don't know for sure. I'm just saying whether she is Jons mother or not, theres one more kingsguard member floating around and we don't know exactly what she died of. I like the Jon theory but we don't know specifics, in this case her death, where the other kingsguard is hiding or what exactly the promise was. "Promise me Ned", the room smelled of "blood and roses" - this is as specific it gets.

Its because in the book we are told

she died in her "bed of blood" which is the accepted expression for dying in childbirth.

There were 2 Kingsguard in the show, perhaps the show has changed the story to have just 2.

nicki11

intheclouds wrote: »

Its because in the book we are told

she died in her "bed of blood" which is the accepted expression for dying in childbirth.

There were 2 Kingsguard in the show, perhaps the show has changed the story to have just 2.

We still don't know what the exact promise is we can assume. I just hope that when the three eyed crow said they'd go back they will. Though I doubt it will be the next episode but it would be good if it was

Optimus Prime

Am i the only one who thought Jon walked into the tunnel under the wall to head north at the end of the episode? It looked like he was heading into a tunnel anyways.

aligator_am

intheclouds wrote: »

I dont really get why it is seen as bad form that Howland Reed stabbed Arthur Dayne in the back to kill him.

I mean the fact is, 5 guys took on 2 guys and they were all trying to kill each other. Im sure Arthur Dayne would happily have taken Howland Reeds head off from behind if the opportunity had arisen.

I mean, it was combat, it was war, people were trying to kill each other, theres no "Queensbury Rules".

Sure, its a shame that someone who was fighting so well was taken out from behind but I dont see it as dishonorable. Maybe if he crept up on him in his sleep and killed him it would be but it was a fight.

I'm thinking that from a very young age Bran would have had the ideals of honour, chivalry etc. drilled in to his head by Ned.

aligator_am

FunLover18 wrote: »

*Walks back to Edd "Actually, I'm probably going to need that cloak. It's ruddy freezing out there."

Actually, thinking about that I wonder how alive he really is, as in is his heart pumping blood or is he just reanimated by magic the way the wights are?

Not even sure he feels the cold anymore, although he did seem to wince when Tormund hugged him so I may be wrong.

Dyr

aligator_am wrote: »

Actually, thinking about that I wonder how alive he really is, as in is his heart pumping blood or is he just reanimated by magic the way the wights are?

Not even sure he feels the cold anymore, although he did seem to wince when Tormund hugged him so I may be wrong.

Intimacy causes him to wince now

aligator_am

I thought it was interesting how they seemed to make a point of talking about the Hound, and in the episode it also made mention of a trial by combat with the faith millitant, Cleganebowl could happen in the next few episodes

I'm thinking that wasn't shaggydog's head, I noticed how Umber said his house is much further north than Winterfell, wonder if more direwolves have made a beeline from beyond the wall and the Umbers caught one, can see the writers having the Umbers take the role of the Manderleys from the books in the show.