Pro choice

DanielODonnell

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

eviltwin

What do you think.

I'm betting he (the priest) is against it.

I am pro choice. I also believe anyone has the right to commit suicide. I would hope both have as much information as possible before either choice, so it is an informed decision. And I respect anyone who completely differs from me. I never get the point about arguing over either.

Zaph

Abortion and suicide have nothing to do with one another. To try and create some sort of spurious link between the two is simply a rather pathetic attempt to muddy the waters regarding the debate on the eighth amendment.

thattequilagirl

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

I don't think suicide should be encouraged, but I wouldn't want anyone prosecuted for attempting to commit suicide. So that's pretty much the same as how I feel about abortion. I think assisted suicide for people who are in chronic pain should be allowed, assuming there are certain checks and balances applied.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Not suicide, euthanisia.
Just this week I've heard of a tragic accident. Fit healthy 66 year old man fell on his way home from the pub and broke a bone in his neck. He's paralysed from the neck down. Hasn't got his speech but he's inside his own head, tears rolling down his face as his family surrounds him, knowing he can't move anything anymore. There's not much the medical team can tell him. Now I'm not saying he should be euthanised, far from it. But imagine being trapped like that? Or in a circumstance similar? When in a split second something so bad happens, that leaves you unable to even feed yourself. You should definitely have the choice to end your life if it's what you want.

I watched how cancer took my dad away, piece by piece. How it took a big strong indestructible man and left a tiny skeleton of a man in less than a year. How a man that could no longer swallow water without needing it to be thickened so he didn't choke on it, (final week of his life) fought tooth and nail to stay alive. How he struggled for each breath he took in his final moments, trying still so hard to fight a disease that had been kicking his ass for a year. And there is no doubt, no question at all in my mind, that if the time comes that I myself get cancer, I will go on my own terms. I dont owe anyone that fight. Life is a gift, sure. But life is for living, and I'm not going to make my kids watch as I get so sick I don't even know who they are.

kneemos

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

Not sure of the point he was making.
Unless he meant abortion was a mental illness or something I can't see any relation between the two.

thattequilagirl

kneemos wrote: »

Not sure of the point he was making.
Unless he meant abortion was a mental illness or something I can't see any relation between the two.

I think it's the "sanctity of all life" thing.

Classy choice of the priest to use the weekend of Darkness Into Light to try and link the very different issues of suicide and abortion to push his agenda.

kneemos

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I think it's the "sanctity of all life" thing.

Classy choice of the priest to use the weekend of Darkness Into Light to try and link the very different issues of suicide and abortion to push his agenda.

I think most people would agree suicide was more due to an illness than a rational choice.

I thought the same actually. Using suicide to somehow support his anti abortion stance is off.

DanielODonnell

kneemos wrote: »

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

Not sure of the point he was making.
Unless he meant abortion was a mental illness or something I can't see any relation between the two.

you don't have to have a mental illness to commit suicide, you could kill yourself due to your dislike of life, i wouldn't say that wanting to die means you are depressed but many would argue otherwise

eviltwin

DanielODonnell wrote: »

you don't have to have a mental illness to commit suicide, you could kill yourself due to your dislike of life, i wouldn't say that wanting to die means you are depressed but many would argue otherwise

How did he link the two Daniel?

Penny Tration

DanielODonnell wrote: »

you don't have to have a mental illness to commit suicide, you could kill yourself due to your dislike of life, i wouldn't say that wanting to die means you are depressed but many would argue otherwise

For most people who attempt or commit suicide, it's due to mental illness. Very different to euthanasia IMO because euthanasia is usually done in cases of hugely painful or debilitating terminal illness.

Disliking life and wanting to die sounds like exactly the kind of apathy that is part of depression.


Also, your priest is fcuking disgusting to equate the two, especially on the Darkness Into Light weekend. Man of God my hole. asshole with a nasty agenda is more apt.

Lady is a tramp

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

I'm absolutely pro-choice when it comes to abortion. That doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion, I doubt any woman goes skipping and smiling into an abortion clinic! It's generally (not always) a sad, distressing decision to make - but any woman is absolutely entitled to control over her own body and what happens inside it.

And yeah, suicide is a personal choice as well. I'd be absolutely in favour of assisted suicide being legalised. I'd also be absolutely in favour of more mental health services available in this country to prevent suicide in cases where it's committed as a result of a treatable mental illness, rather than when it's done as a genuine choice made in a healthy frame of mind.

I don't really see the two issues as being relevant to each other though?

ThrillCosby

The Pro Life term is condescending to say the least. Are people why want the choice to have an abortion anti-life?

Linking abortion in anyway to suicide is ridiculous

applehunter

Suicide certainly seems to be getting a soft sell these days. Its morally repugnant thing for anyone one to commit IMO.

Sonics2k

Suicide =/= euthanasia, stop trying to get the two mixed up and muddy the discussion.

ToddyDoody

DanielODonnell wrote: »

My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

What does Abortion have to to do with religion and spirituality?

IsaacWunder

applehunter wrote: »

Suicide certainly seems to be getting a soft sell these days. Its morally repugnant thing for anyone one to commit IMO.

Culturally the view of suicide has varied throughout history. The Japanese Bushido, or warrior code, for example, considered it an honourable thing to do. Similarly in the West for sea captains going down with the ship was seen as the only moral thing to do. Edward Smith, the captain of the Titanic, being a relatively recent famous example.

Unless one is a sufferer of a terminal illness, most suicides these days are due to mental illness. If you see it as morally repugnant, fair enough, but you might as well be saying cancer is morally repugnant, or a broken leg.

kneemos

ToddyDoody wrote: »

What does Abortion have to to do with religion and spirituality?

Depends on your beliefs.Maybe everything,maybe nothing.

Vic_08

applehunter wrote: »

Suicide certainly seems to be getting a soft sell these days. Its morally repugnant thing for anyone one to commit IMO.

Stigmatising people with mental illness is morally repugnant.

Passing judgement on people whose situation you know nothing about is morally repugnant.

Imposing religious beliefs on others who do not share your particular brand of sky wizard worship is morally repugnant.

ToddyDoody

kneemos wrote: »

Maybe everything,maybe nothing.

You should consider going into politics

RobertKK

Abortion, suicide, euthanasia, they all involve life.
With abortion, in most cases the life inside the womb is striving to succeed and live, but is terminated.
Suicide is usually due to a very severe mental health problem.
Euthanasia puts your life in the hands of someone else, if I was paralysed from the neck down, I would be feeling sorry for myself, does it mean I want my life ended, and if I couldn't communicate whose choice is it to take when it comes to euthanasia?

It all comes down to individuals and how they view life.

Penny Tration

RobertKK wrote: »

Abortion, suicide, euthanasia, they all involve life.
With abortion, in most cases the life inside the womb is striving to succeed and live, but is terminated.
Suicide is usually due to a very severe mental health problem.
Euthanasia puts your life in the hands of someone else, if I was paralysed from the neck down, I would be feeling sorry for myself, does it mean I want my life ended, and if I couldn't communicate whose choice is it to take when it comes to euthanasia?

It all comes down to individuals and how they view life.

With regards to the euthanasia bit - nobody can make that choice for you, regardless of circumstances. To be accepted for euthanasia in countries that allow it, it has to be your decision, yours alone, and communicated clearly that it is your wish and does not involve coercion.

You may feel sorry for yourself if paralyzed. For others, it goes far, far deeper than a bit of self pity.

RobertKK

Penny Tration wrote: »

With regards to the euthanasia bit - nobody can make that choice for you, regardless of circumstances. To be accepted for euthanasia in countries that allow it, it has to be your decision, yours alone, and communicated clearly that it is your wish and does not involve coercion.

You may feel sorry for yourself if paralyzed. For others, it goes far, far deeper than a bit of self pity.

There was the case in Florida where the family of Terri Schiavo fought her husband who wanted to stop her being fed so she would die, as he argued it was what she would have wanted.
There was nothing from Terri Schiavo saying she wanted this and he claimed she had said so when she was healthy, but there was no record to support this, just the word of her husband who also was reported to have subjected her to domestic abuse.
The courts took his word and starved her to death, it was a form of euthanasia, because if you choose to stop feeding someone they will die and it was done because it was argued by her husband that this is what she wanted, even though she couldn't say it was or wasn't.

Penny Tration

RobertKK wrote: »

There was the case in Florida where the family of Terri Schiavo fought her husband who wanted to stop her being fed so she would die, as he argued it was what she would have wanted.
There was nothing from Terri Schiavo saying she wanted this and he claimed she had said so when she was healthy, but there was no record to support this, just the word of her husband who also was reported to have subjected her to domestic abuse.
The courts took his word and starved her to death, it was a form of euthanasia, because if you choose to stop feeding someone they will die and it was done because it was argued by her husband that this is what she wanted, even though she couldn't say it was or wasn't.

That's not a euthanasia case.

She was in a persistent vegetative state, despite years of medical intervention. Choosing to end life support is not euthanasia

DontThankMe

They're not the same OP abortion is the mother choosing to terminate the pregnancy so she is killing the baby therefore the baby isn't choosing to take their own life. Suicide is choosing to take your own life there is no comparison between the two it's like comparing apples and potatoes!

lazza14

I wouldn't take any notice of anything a catholic priest says on this subject.

Pontificating up on the alter saying abortion is wrong - yeah abortion is wrong but peadophilia is OK - This is the churches view on things.

RobertKK

Penny Tration wrote: »

That's not a euthanasia case.

She was in a persistent vegetative state, despite years of medical intervention. Choosing to end life support is not euthanasia

She had her method of feeding removed, it was not a life support machine, it took 13 days of no liquid or food to kill her.
I don't know how you classify it as life support removed, we all eat and drink to live, and we would also die probably around the same time period with no liquid or food.

PLL

I am pro-life.
I support euthanasia.
Therefore my pro-life stance isn't to do with the sanctity of life.

I feel people should have the freedom to commit suicide. I have suffered from depression on and off, only near suicidal once. I wasn't thinking about doing it, I was thinking how much easier it would be. Which is why it is often said that is cowardly to commit suicide, I suppose it is. I read a story about 8 years ago, about a woman in her fifties who commited suicide after suffering from depression her whole life. In her note she said she just wanted the pain to stop. To me that is akin to euthanasia and if that was a family member of mine, although the situation would be sad, I would find peace in knowing they got peace.

The pro-life stance, well I know it's not popular and I know a referendum to abolish the 8th ammendment would pass. I accept that. But personally I don't think it's right.

IsaacWunder

Penny Tration wrote: »

With regards to the euthanasia bit - nobody can make that choice for you, regardless of circumstances. To be accepted for euthanasia in countries that allow it, it has to be your decision, yours alone, and communicated clearly that it is your wish and does not involve coercion.

You may feel sorry for yourself if paralyzed. For others, it goes far, far deeper than a bit of self pity.

1. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are different things.

2. Non-voluntary (as opposed to involuntary) euthanasia happens in a number of countries, including Belgium and the Netherlands. You can be euthanised without ever having made a decision.

Penny Tration

IsaacWunder wrote: »

1. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are different things.

2. Non-voluntary (as opposed to involuntary) euthanasia happens in a number of countries, including Belgium and the Netherlands. You can be euthanised without ever having made a decision.

My apology for getting the definition wrong.


I think it's pretty clear people are speaking mostly about assisted suicide though.

Your Face

This may be unpopular, but I ve always preferred Pepsi.
Its my choice and the choice of a new generation.

Lady is a tramp

Your Face wrote: »

This may be unpopular, but I ve always preferred Pepsi.
Its my choice and the choice of a new generation.

You sick b@stard.

endacl

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

I respect your right to choose to start stupid threads.

mahamageehad

What a bizarre thread! Suicide =/= Abortion. Abortion =/= Euthanasia. Euthanasia =/= Suicide.

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Apart from the fact that these things all relate to the ending of a life, they have nothing in common. It's perfectly acceptable to have differing views on all of the above. Much more acceptable to have an opinion that listen blindly to a priest IMO...[/font]

Your Face

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

You sick b@stard.

Your high horse is standing in a valley.

lazza14

lazza14 wrote: »

I wouldn't take any notice of anything a catholic priest says on this subject.

Pontificating up on the alter saying abortion is wrong - yeah abortion is wrong but peadophilia is OK - This is the churches view on things.

I really don't think it is.

pragmatic1

I'd be pro-choice when it comes to abortion, euthanasia and suicide.

Life is tough for a lot of people and there isn't always a silver lining. It's not really possible to judge someone if you haven't lived inside their head.

One eyed Jack

There's another major difference between abortion and suicide, in this country at least:

Abortion is illegal, suicide isn't.

Every human life has the right to life in this country, but none of us have the right to die.

The priest has every right to air his views, but I'd prefer to know what he actually said before I'd condemn him without having heard what he actually said.

Kidchameleon

Penny Tration wrote: »

Also, your priest is fcuking disgusting to equate the two, especially on the Darkness Into Light weekend. Man of God my hole. asshole with a nasty agenda is more apt.

Just to point out that the OP never said the priest linked the two.

Liamario

I feel sorry for anyone who takes the words of a man who has spent his life as a priest.

One eyed Jack

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Just to point out that the OP never said the priest linked the two.

Exactly. The OP only said that the priest was giving his views on abortion. The OP themselves is the person who appears to be trying to link the two.

Liamario wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone who takes the words of a man who has spent his life as a priest.

I really should know better than to bite, but curiosity gets the better of me. Why would you feel sorry for anyone who takes the words of a man who has spent his life as a priest?

Galwayguy35

Liamario wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone who takes the words of a man who has spent his life as a priest.

You're ok we don't need your pity.

A priest in a church is talking to other catholics, there's really no need for anyone else who isn't catholic to get their knickers in a twist over something he said.

Although I don't see how he was comparing suicide and abortion, maybe the OP could give us a bit more info on what was said.

Liamario

Any person who makes moral decisions based on a book that's 100s of years old should be listened to with extreme caution.
I'm not speaking for every priest, but when you express an opinion based on dogmaas opposed to reason and understanding, your opinion is of little value in the real world.

kneemos

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You're ok we don't need your pity.

A priest in a church is talking to other catholics, there's really no need for anyone else who isn't catholic to get their knickers in a twist over something he said.

Although I don't see how he was comparing suicide and abortion, maybe the OP could give us a bit more info on what was said.

If they're given a false impression there might well be cause for worry.

We'll never know what he said though I imagine.

One eyed Jack

Liamario wrote: »

Any person who makes moral decisions based on a book that's 100s of years old should be listened to with extreme caution.
I'm not speaking for every priest, but when you express an opinion based on dogmaas opposed to reason and understanding, your opinion is of little value in the real world.

Do you think your opinion of men who have spent their lives as priests was based upon reason and understanding of men who have spent their lives as priests?

I'd be even more cautious of placing any value whatsoever in your opinion tbh as you appear to have no basis whatsoever for it. Therefore your opinion is of little value to anyone in the real world, in my opinion, of course.

Kidchameleon

Its worth pointing out that there were a few priests who were publicly in favor of the marriage referendum (there were probably many more who were secretly in favor of it). These priests were not influenced by the bible or the church hierarchy.

alan partridge aha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its worth pointing out that there were a few priests who were publicly in favor of the marriage referendum (there were probably many more who were secretly in favor of it). These priests were not influenced by the bible or the church hierarchy.

Ya there was one in my parish cnut should have been ran.

_Whimsical_

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Are the people who are pro choice regarding abortion also pro choice regarding suicide? They say that it is the womans body so it is her choice but you could say the same regarding suicide. My priest was telling us his views on abortion at mass today.

Seems a very strange comparison.
Was he talking about legalising euthanasia/assisted suicide and in some way relating that to legalisation of abortion? Both of those issues might be tied together in a Catholic context as they're about the "sanctity of life".

Or did the priest say nothing about suicide and you are just musing on the two topics ?

DM addict

Not quite sure what point your priest thought he was making.

I am pro-choice in all decisions regarding bodily autonomy. Although they're not the same thing (like, at all) there is an element of being able to decide what does/doesn't happen to your body through abortion, euthanasia and suicide. I think these should all be informed choices, and should be made with as few external pressures (e.g. shame/judgement from family) as possible.

Ultimately, I believe we have the right to choose what happens to our body. And deserve to have that right respected.

topmanamillion

I recently endured a Catholic priest rabbiting on about some religious painting he liked at the funeral of a close relative.

Pay no heed to what priests tell you and form your own opinions based on reason and facts.