training/disciplining a misbehaving dog

gareth12121

Hi, looking for advice on how to get my collie/beagle cross to stop jumping and nipping at legs, hands etc. "Disciplining" is probably the wrong word to use, but he is getting out of hand and seems to be getting worse and worse. He is very good natured most of the time but he gets excited and just starts nipping and jumping on you and scraping with his claws etc. When we try to disipline him with a tap on the nose, make him sit etc he has started to get aggressive.any advice or suggestions please.

cocker5

gareth12121 wrote: »

Hi, looking for advice on how to get my collie/beagle cross to stop jumping and nipping at legs, hands etc. "Disciplining" is probably the wrong word to use, but he is getting out of hand and seems to be getting worse and worse. He is very good natured most of the time but he gets excited and just starts nipping and jumping on you and scraping with his claws etc. When we try to disipline him with a tap on the nose, make him sit etc he has started to get aggressive.any advice or suggestions please.

Please don't tap him on the nose, their nose is one of the most sensitive parts of their body, it's painful not to mention annoying for them. Tapping his nose is an outdated training method proven to be counter productive etc.

A little bit more info would help..

Age?

How long have you had him?

How much exercise does he get?

What else are you trying to stop him etc?

When does it occur? Ie when u come from work etc?

What are you feeding him? Certain foods can make a dog too hyper etc.

Give us more info and we will be able to help you sort this out.

gareth12121

Hi sorry wasnt thinking, yes info would help. He's roughly 8-9 months old, he gets all dry food (markus muhle) he was on science plan but it didnt agree with him. He gets some treats during the day(mostly healthy). Hes walked once a day for 45 mins minimum and probably twice a day 3 or 4 days of the week. I work from home some days so he gets an hour or 2 running around the large garden. We have had him for about 6 months. It has gotten worse in the last 2 or 3 weeks and as hes bigger and stronger it has become a real problem ie scraping us with his claws when jumping up etc. We have only tried the nose tapping in the last 2 or 3 days and as it is making him worse and angry and annoyed would def prefer to find another way. No change in his routine really in the last few weeks. He has been nutered about 4 weeks ago and he was over it in a day or 2, could this be affecting him?. as for the jumping and nipping it is pretty much all day, every day until we put him to bed (very excitable at all times).

gareth12121

Also must admit he has got little or no training/discipline up til now as he had'nt really needed to.

DBB

Hi gareth12121,
I hope it makes you feel better to know that you're not alone... this is quite a common problem!
Your dog has learned that jumping up on you is a great way to get some sort of attention... good or bad, he probably doesn't really care which, as long as it happens! Indeed, he has even tacked on a couple of sure-fire attention-grabbers with the nipping and scraping! In the absence of learning any alternatives, this has become his default greeting, his default attention-seeking behaviour.
So, it's time to start implementing a few rules. These boil down to (a) making sure he no longer gets attention for being an eejit, and (b) making sure he does get attention when he's being good.
This is going to mean teaching him an alternative behaviour, something else he can turn to in order to get your attention... nice attention.
The easiest way to do this is to teach him to Sit on cue... have you done this, or are you happy you know how? If not, just say so and we'll talk you through it
Once he sits on cue, you can now start to implement your rules. And they are:
If his butt is on the floor, he gets attention.
If it's not, you're outta there!

So, walk in the door. Ask him to sit. If he sits, he gets a tasty treat and a pet. If he jumps up on you, you immediately reverse back out the door. It's a good idea to give him a "you lose" verbal marker before you reverse out... "uh-uh", or "No ya don't" or somesuch is fine. Keep your cool... no anger, no shouting, no nose-tapping, just use the door to make yourself disappear.
If you walk in the door and he sits, but then jumps up as you're rewarding/petting him, same thing... reverse out the door. After a few of these reversals, you should find that just giving that verbal non-reward marker, followed by standing up straight and withdrawing your attention, will work fine, without you having to reverse out... though always keep the reverse-out in your armoury if you need it!
Stay outside the door for a few seconds, then go back in again. If he sits, he's rewarded. If he doesn't, reverse out again.
There's a good chance that you'll notice pretty quickly, within a few minutes, that when you walk in the door, he will sit for you. After a few more minutes, you should find that he'll sit without being asked... he's pre-empting the verbal cue... BINGO! This is the start of what you're looking for... his choice to park his butt when he sees the door opening, without even being asked to!

Now, it's a good idea, when teaching anything new, that one person starts the process. This person is the one who'll get jumped up on the most as the dog is trying to figure out what "works". Therefore, this person needs to be calm and patient.
Once the dog has started pre-empting Person 1 walking into the room, then Person 2 can start the process... the dog is likely to do what's required much more quickly for Person 2, and even quicker again for Person 3. Each person can get steadily more animated and excited and silly with each door-opening, so that the dog learns to park his butt no matter what the human is doing... let's face it, in real life, who comes in the door quietly? Especially visitors!
Kids can quickly get involved too... very small kids can be accompanied by an adult for the first few times, older kids can go it alone, though you might find it easier to keep the dog on-lead so he can't jump up on kids.
It's also a good idea to practise this a lot, at every door, and practise lots of "pretend" homecomings. This repeated practise not only fine-hones his (and your) skills, it takes the novelty and the "OMG! OMG!" excitement out of homecomings because they're happening far more often now.

This works really well... you're giving him the choice: be an eejit, you lose. Be nice, you win. Dogs will generally chose what works best for them... you're manipulating things so that what you want works best for him.
It's also pretty easy to implement because you don't have to get into negotiations with the dog, nor plead with him to stop, nor physically punish him.

Best of luck op, let us know how you get on!

Choc Chip

We did something similar to what DBB described but taught our dog to say "hello" (i.e. sit and give a paw) when we came home.

It's been briliant for redirecting her energy when we came in but I do wish we'd just gone with "sit":
- 30kg of dog sitting in the doorway and smacking you repeatedly with their big clean paw is fine.
- 30kg of dog running outside to a muddy puddle, racing back, and smacking a huge paw all over your white jeans is less endearing... oops.

If I was to do it again I'd stick to "sit".

spur

I did a slight variation of this. My biggest issue was not coming in the door but when deciding to go for a walk! Cue daft out of control dog and 5 minutes of struggling to get a lead on - numerous head buts, fingers pulled as grabbed ring and he jumped again.......etc etc
He did have a sit, but I didn't go down that route - for no real reason!

So I decided to go for a walk and the behaviour above started and i just ignored him - did nothing at all, sat on the stairs and left him get on with it. He howled and whined and cried - and repeat! Eventually he'd either sit or lie down and if I got even a second of that I'd say "good" and move towards him - and then back to my stairs when he'd go back to doolally mode. I started this on a Sunday morning when I had plenty of time to wait and first morning took 20 minutes before I got his lead on. By the end of that week once he saw his lead he sat and still does to this day. We since got a 2nd dog and he copped onto this very quickly. They're both collies.

We have extended this to coming in the door in the evening. They are out the back and I won't open the back door if they are jumping against it - after one or two evenings of this they don't even bother now. If they are in the house we just ignore them until they calm down and once they're calm we make a fuss. They both know a command for jump and I'm quite happy to have them jump on me to say hello - as long as I ask for it!

Whatever you do it takes a lot of time and patience as they will go daft initially trying to work out what it is you want! The point DBB makes about wanting any attention be it good or bad is a very important one and one I find myself forgetting at times.

Best of luck with it - and the suggestions you've been given here do work. I use the "ask for a sit" one when I'm out walking and meet another dog.

ShaShaBear

It took myself and my partner months of training and help from a professional is what sealed the deal in the end. He was behaving exactly as your boy - jumping and nipping - like he was on crack!
Our trainer met him and she stood steadfast and silent while he jumped, pawed, nipped, barked, headbutted and then eventually sat. The second his bum touched the floor, she shot her hand out with a "YES!" and a treat, followed with much petting. She also advised it that the "remove yourself as the treat" method works just as well, but she felt this was a good way of the dog learning all possible outcomes that don't work without negative reinforcement. We continued with this at home, and after two days he would sit when we approached. She then had us reward him with extreme physical attention. When we stopped, and he continued to sit, he got rewarded and we worked up his sitting time!

He's still a bleedin' lunatic, but at least now he knows when we mean business

gareth12121

so just to let you all know how we are getting on with buddy. we had him nutered and while he was in getting this done we had his hip x-rayed as he was biting at it and leaving a bald patch on it. the xray showed no arthritus or any visable problems. Vet suggested we give him metacam and see if this helped as he may have pain in it causing him to bite at it. since he was nutured and gone on the metacam he has been like a different dog, aggressive, hyperactive nipping scrapping etc. we were at our wits end. so on researching a bit about metacam painkiller found that it may be causing his bad behaviour and aggressive behaviour. So we have decided to stop giving it to him. In 2 days hes nearly back to his normal self. aggression that hes been showing in the last 6 weeks since going on the metacam totally gone, far calmer and a lot more relaxed and totally managable. Is it just me or should the vet have given us a heads up to the possible side effects of the drug when telling us to put him on it?.

VonVix

gareth12121 wrote: »

so just to let you all know how we are getting on with buddy. we had him nutered and while he was in getting this done we had his hip x-rayed as he was biting at it and leaving a bald patch on it. the xray showed no arthritus or any visable problems. Vet suggested we give him metacam and see if this helped as he may have pain in it causing him to bite at it. since he was nutured and gone on the metacam he has been like a different dog, aggressive, hyperactive nipping scrapping etc. we were at our wits end. so on researching a bit about metacam painkiller found that it may be causing his bad behaviour and aggressive behaviour. So we have decided to stop giving it to him. In 2 days hes nearly back to his normal self. aggression that hes been showing in the last 6 weeks since going on the metacam totally gone, far calmer and a lot more relaxed and totally managable. Is it just me or should the vet have given us a heads up to the possible side effects of the drug when telling us to put him on it?.

Allergic reaction rather than a side effect maybe?

gareth12121

Maybe, it does say that there are commen and less commen side effects like liver damage vomiting etc. More severe side effects of the drug is aggression behavioral problems and hyperactivity. as well as a host of others. If the metacam had worked without any side effects he would have probably been on it for life. Just thought it was a bit irresponsible of the vet to just say give him this for the next month and see if it works and not say to keep an eye out for this, this and this as it can cause side effects. we probably should have asked or looked it up ourselves earlier also.

VonVix

I have worked with many dogs on Metacam with no issues, perhaps your vet could never have predicted your dog would have a reaction to it based on past history with other clients, so he felt no need to have to warn you of a potential risk?

DBB

In fairness op, I've been working with dogs professionally now for 15+ years, and I run a rescue. I've dealt with thousands of dogs in that time. I have never come across a dog reacting as yours did to Metacam, I've never heard of it happening, and I've never read about it in the vast swathes of clinical behavioural research papers I've chewed through.
I'll bet your vet will tell you the same.
So, I think it's fair to say that it's exceptionally rare for it to happen.
It is also extremely unlikely that your vet would have opted for Metacam as a long-term option, because the liver damage you've mentioned is a risk that goes with prolonged use of the drug. That's not so much of a consideration with an elderly dog, but it is with a youngster, so vets will generally opt for a less side-effecty drug for long-term use in young dogs.
Is he still chewing his hip? Did your vet check the anal glands?

gareth12121

perhaps he didnt, but from researching the drug all information says that dog should be monitered closely and if any of a number of side effects are seen then administration of metacam should be halted immidiately and contact vet. im sure you have worked with many dogs that have had no issues with metacam but even if it is just 1 dog in 50 or 1 in 100 that has an adverse reaction to the drug, surely the vet should give you a heads up to moniter him closely rather then, here give him this once a day.

gareth12121

hi yes he checked his anal glands and xray'd his hip. xray showed no arthritus. he said it could also be behavioural. Dont mean to be blaming vet but we had a quiet good natured playful dog before he went to get nutured and afterwards one that developed into a dog who was baring his teeth, growling biting scraping uncontrolable lunatic afterwards. We didnt know what we were doing wrong. He is currently curled up on the couch beside me asleep, 3 days ago this would not be happening and this is all since taking him off the metacam. oh and he seems to have stopped biting his hip so in that regard the metacam possibly worked.

cocker5

OP glad to hear your dogs behaviour has improved!

if the hip issue does reappear you should consider some alternative supplements. see below i use these to help with my guys joints and find the excellent (especially the golden paste from Holistic hounds and the Luposan)...

http://www.holistichound.ie/#!product/prd1/3892350021/golden-paste

http://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/supplements_specialty_food/bones_joints/luposan/129097

http://www.zooplus.com/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/fur_skin_supplements/127318

DBB

But my point is that it's not as big a chance as 1 in 50 or 1 in 100. It's more likely to be 1 in thousands. I've worked with many vets, I'm clinically trained myself, and I'm sure other posters will attest, I have never heard a vet warning about behavioural side-effects of Metacam, so low is the risk. I have heard them warning owners about the potential for liver damage, because that is a real risk.
Similarly, a tiny proportion of humans react badly to paracetamol... But I've never heard a chemist warning customers that it might affect them adversely, because the risk is tiny. But I have heard them warning customers about ibuprofen, because it carries more significant risks. I'm sure your vet warned you of the risks of anaesthesia when your dog was being neutered... There's a very small risk that goes with it, so it's not as if your get was laissez-faire with warning you have f the risks, and it puts into proportion that the risk of a behavioural reaction to Metacam is vastly smaller than the anaesthesia risk, which itself is already very small.
Indeed, your vet did exactly the right thing putting your dog on Metacam to investigate whether the hip-chewing was behavioural or pain-based. That is precisely what a clinical behaviourist would have discussed with your vet.
I would be the first to critically analyse the actions of a vet or doctor, but I wouldn't consider your vet to have done anything wrong in this case.

DBB

Another thing to bear in mind, and I can't tell for sure of the timings from your posts, but what I have seen on a few occasions, is dogs that reacted badly, behaviourally, to the general anaesthetic after an operation for days, sometimes weeks after the operation.

gareth12121

hi DBB the first post would have been 3-4 weeks after the nutering. I understand what your saying about the not being a need for the warning for possible side effects if the chance is extremely small for them having them. anyway heres a picture buddy to put a face to the problem.

gareth12121

hi cocker5, thanks for that. The holistichounds looks good and is very reasonably priced. Might give that a go. his hip is a strange one, no sign of joint pain etc ie in limping or tenderness and nothing on xrays or that the vet can find, just the biting of his hip. Might give him this as it can only be beneficial now and in his later life.