Help with a control panel (zero electronics experience)

mossymossy

Hi, I'm looking to put together a control panel to power a 5500w element that I can use for homebrewing. I need to be able to control the power going to the element and also get a temperature reading. I have all the parts ( I think ) and I have also has a 32amp socket installed in the house to power it.

I have a picture of what I'm trying to achieve and a schematic as well.

Having absolutely no experience with anything like this I'm wondering if anyone would be able to either talk me through it in baby steps or maybe take it on as a nixer.

The forum won't let me post images or links so if you search 'Electric homebrew control panel' you'll get an idea of what I'm going for. (Some of the results are a lot more complicated than what I'm looking for)

If you'd like a look at the schematic PM me and I'll send it on.

As mentioned, having absolutely no experience with anything like this I'm wondering if anyone would be able to either talk me through it in baby steps or maybe take it on as a nixer.
I'm based in Dublin 12.
Thanks.
Dan

institubes

first thing you need to tell us is exactly what gear you have,contactors,relays,type of themostat,push buttons etc..

institubes

also exactly what you are looking for in terms of control,should the thermostat bring on/off the heater of is it just for information?

mossymossy

institubes wrote: »

also exactly what you are looking for in terms of control,should the thermostat bring on/off the heater of is it just for information?

Hi, I have a 5500w camco element, plug (male&female) for element, two ssr's, a PID, temp probe, various on/off switches, LED indicators, mount for element and I've also had 32 amp plug installed in the house.
I've also got an enclosure to house everything.
Please let me know if you'd like any further information.
This would be a lot clearer if I could post some images/links.
Thanks

Steve

I'll send you a PM.
In the spirit of boards, I'll help you out and post the results here

Steve

I got the pics, can I post them here for you? Don't want to do it without your permission.

You mentioned a schematic, could you send that on as well please? I'm just wondering what you intend to do with the lights and control switch / push button.

This is bread and butter stuff for me

mossymossy

Steve wrote: »

I got the pics, can I post them here for you? Don't want to do it without your permission.

You mentioned a schematic, could you send that on as well please? I'm just wondering what you intend to do with the lights and control switch / push button.

This is bread and butter stuff for me

Sure Steve, post away.

Steve

I've had a busy few days, tho op has sent me details of the project and I have a few concerns... I hope to have some time to post images and a summary tomorrow.

Steve

OK, Finally had some time to look at this.

There are the bits that the OP has: (Had to use imagur as too big to post here)

http://imgur.com/a/YB44D

Cable:
http://imgur.com/YJoqF7N

Example of finished panel:
http://imgur.com/TZVF0Mh

And finally, a schematic:


My initial take on it is that the schematic does not match the 'finished panel' you sent. The panel has a 'boil' function, the schematic does not include this.

Next, it has no main isolator included, this would purely be a safety thing so you could switch it off. I'm also not sure what the spur outlet plate is doing there - can't see a use for it in the context of this as a system.

All the other bits seem to have a use - maybe some discussion needed on what the lamps are for but would be interested in others opinions on the project vs the schematic.

I'm not sure I'd recommend this as a DIY job to build given the current involved with the heater, there is not much safety margin built in to the components so it would have to be done right.

mossymossy

Thanks for taking a look at this Steve, I really appreciate it.
I'd be happy to have either manual control of the power or just use the PID to set the temp.
I agree with you that's it's no DIY job.
Would you be interested in this as a nixer or would you be able to recommend anyone?
Thanks Steve

Bull76

From looking at the details online for the Temp controller it seems to be the go to for home brewing.

A slight change for the use of safe isolation on the controller, that would allow safe isolation of the control cabinet. Probably better to have PID control rather than manual, otherwise you'd need to be watching it like a hawk.

You could also build in an over temp stat if the monitoring TC was ever to fail, you would prevent boiling and pressurizing a vessel. But I'm assuming the vessel is vented, so this wouldn't be needed but nice to have.

Not overly complicated for someone who tinkers with control panels and the likes. Not a bad project to have your own beer brewing facility.

Indicator appear to give a visual of the element on, nice to have incase the vessel was empty, burn out the element. For the non electrical, this would be useful.

The reference cabinet is different with extra options which haven't been added here but could be adjusted at a later date if needed. It does have an isolation switch, On/Off, extra element for boil or uses only one and adjusts the wiring.

What would be the running temp of the brewing vessel, and for what duration?

mossymossy

Bull76 wrote: »

From looking at the details online for the Temp controller it seems to be the go to for home brewing.

A slight change for the use of safe isolation on the controller, that would allow safe isolation of the control cabinet. Probably better to have PID control rather than manual, otherwise you'd need to be watching it like a hawk.

You could also build in an over temp stat if the monitoring TC was ever to fail, you would prevent boiling and pressurizing a vessel. But I'm assuming the vessel is vented, so this wouldn't be needed but nice to have.

Not overly complicated for someone who tinkers with control panels and the likes. Not a bad project to have your own beer brewing facility.

Indicator appear to give a visual of the element on, nice to have incase the vessel was empty, burn out the element. For the non electrical, this would be useful.

The reference cabinet is different with extra options which haven't been added here but could be adjusted at a later date if needed. It does have an isolation switch, On/Off, extra element for boil or uses only one and adjusts the wiring.

What would be the running temp of the brewing vessel, and for what duration?

Yeah, at some point in the future I'd like to extend it and add a second element and a pump but one element is perfect at the moment.

As far as temp goes I need to hold 10 gallons at about 75 degrees for an hour and then I'd need to have 14 gallons at a good rolling boil for another hour.

Steve

Can you clarify: is the vessel pressurised or vented?

What do you mean by a 'rolling boil'? 100 deg C?

I would agree that a safety stat would be a good idea, they're not expensive and wired inline with the SSR could stop a fire

The SSR and PID combination is a perfect way to control temperature, its tried and tested - however - SSRs can fail to danger and this means the heater element can be continuously on even if the control signal is off. There needs to be a backup.

mossymossy

Steve wrote: »

Can you clarify: is the vessel pressurised or vented?

What do you mean by a 'rolling boil'? 100 deg C?

I would agree that a safety stat would be a good idea, they're not expensive and wired inline with the SSR could stop a fire

The SSR and PID combination is a perfect way to control temperature, its tried and tested - however - SSRs can y stats fail to danger and this means the heater element can be continuously on even if the control signal is off. There needs to be a backup.

The vessel is a keg with a hole cut into the top so it's not pressurised, it's open through the whole process.

The safety stat seems like a good idea, is there much involved in that?

As far as the rolling boil goes I've looked online for an explanation and the best I could find was 100 degrees will give you a simmer and a good rolling boil. It all depends on the amount of liquid thats actually at 100 degrees so that's something I'll need to figure out.

Bull76

So vented vessel, that means it can't get filled with steam and explode. That's good to note. You should probably work on the bases of it been filled 85% and that's it full.

Safety stat can be attached to the side of the keg, and then back to your control box. Probably have to interrupt the output of the SSR, but depends on the operating voltage. May be able to use the input to the SSR to switch it off.

Steve

I'd suggest a manual reset stat, something like this:
http://ie.farnell.com/multicomp/05en1034-115-m/thermal-switch-nc-115-c/dp/732576

Wired in series with the 12V SSR control line.

brightspark

Steve wrote: »

I'd suggest a manual reset stat, something like this:
http://ie.farnell.com/multicomp/05en1034-115-m/thermal-switch-nc-115-c/dp/732576

Wired in series with the 12V SSR control line.

Given that SSRs nearly always fail "on", I'd suggest either directly switching the supply to the element (which that switch isn't really suitable for) or wiring it to an additional relay in series with the SSR.

2011

brightspark wrote: »

Given that SSRs nearly always fail "on", I'd suggest either directly switching the supply to the element (which that switch isn't really suitable for) or wiring it to an additional relay in series with the SSR.

Agree.
This general approche for safety related wiring (as opposed to normal operation control wiring).

mossymossy

2011 wrote: »

Agree.
This general approche for safety related wiring (as opposed to normal operation control wiring).

I wouldn't be adverse to that suggestion, I have a relay that I could use

Steve

I also agree, I posted in a hurry heading out to the Leinster match and I'm only now recovering from the hangover...

The issue is the terminals on the stat are exposed so they have to be low voltage. Ideally, I'd run it through a stop/start circuit which also gives no volt protection but this will require a 12 or 24V power supply and would add cost.
So it's either IP40 the stat or add a power supply.

Bull76

Seems we've all come to the same conclusion, safety, make it as safe as possible.

So the output from the PID would go through the safety stat on the vessel, to the input of the SSR. Use the relay to control the output from the SSR, then have the relay enabled via push button or a rotary switch.
Or,
The safety stat controls the relay and then you need an additional panel transformer, 24vac.

I think the first option would be better, reason been, the op can control when voltage is applied to the element. Say he turned on the control panel, but the SSR had failed closed and the vessel was empty. Then the element will get fried.

Even if the vessel is full, but the PID hasn't been triggered to start heating and it displayed temp rising, with the heater relay enabled, it would highlight a failed SSR. Could use it as a test of the circuit.

Op have you made openings in the keg for the heating element?

This isn't a bad project considering what your getting in return.

mossymossy

Yeah, I've been doin it for a few years but using a gas setup that I want to move away from.

I've made a hole for the element and bought an enclosure for the outside

To be honest the last few comments have gone over my head a bit.