rules query

Dublin Spur

can you participate in a singles club competition and play singles match-play within the same round of golf ?

C.O.Y.B.I.B

Cant see why not , but obviously no 'given' putts ! Wouldnt fancy it myself as its 2 different games with a different mindset and different 'tactics'

PARlance

Can't see how that would possible as there are different rules for both formats. Playing out of turn etc.

Keano

It can be done but you'd be crazy to do it.

First Up

PARlance wrote:

Can't see how that would possible as there are different rules for both formats. Playing out of turn etc.

How would that be a problem? In all forms of golf the player furthest away plays first.

First Up

Keano wrote:

It can be done but you'd be crazy to do it.

It happens quite often - usually when a match has to be played by an upcoming deadline. It isn't ideal but there is nothing in the rules to stop it.

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

How would that be a problem? In all forms of golf the player furthest away plays first.

It would be a problem if he played out of turn. His matchplay opponent could ask him to retake the shot.

PARlance

Keano wrote: »

It can be done but you'd be crazy to do it.

First Up wrote: »

It happens quite often - usually when a match has to be played by an upcoming deadline. It isn't ideal but there is nothing in the rules to stop it.

Rule 33-1

Certain specific rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted. The result of a match played in these circumstances is null and void and, in the stroke play competition, the competitors are disqualified.

Rikand

So from a rules point of view - no

From a common sense and practicality point of view - yes

PARlance

Dublin Spur wrote: »

can you participate in a singles club competition and play singles match-play within the same round of golf ?

I have seen matchplay slots within singles comps. If it's a case that you can both only get out during the time when a singles comp is on, I'm sure the club would facilitate a line within the time sheet for your match.

PARlance

Rikand wrote: »

So from a rules point of view - no

From a common sense and practicality point of view - yes

Common sense would be to follow the rules of golf. You cant pick and choose the rules you want to abide by.

Common sense would be to play one format at a time. They're different games with different strategies.

mike12

The rules say no.
Don't know why u would want to do it either.
Would u be playing as a 2 ball in the middle of a stableford comp.

Golfgorfield

Can 2 people in a match decide to agree on terms regardless?
I have done this in the past with a go ahead from committee, simply play off the comp tees and agree that all putts finished out.

Cannot see the reason for the hulabaloo on this

First Up

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Can 2 people in a match decide to agree on terms regardless?
I have done this in the past with a go ahead from committee, simply play off the comp tees and agree that all putts finished out.

Cannot see the reason for the hulabaloo on this

Nor me. Nor do I see where the rules are "substantially different". If two players want to discharge their obligation to play a match they can agree what to do - and who would be any the wiser?

DuckSlice

Ive seen it done and have done it myself also, wasnt aware it was a breach of the rules though. I dont like it, i find i couldnt fully focus on the match or the weekly comp.

Ive also played a match(or not played rather) where me and the other just couldnt get a time slot to suit each other before the deadline so we just said the winner would be decided on who had the best score in the weekly comp. Not ideal but if it wasnt played then our names would have been drawn out of a hat, so we didnt see the problem in it.

Id say if it suits you and the club are ok with it then go ahead.

ForeRight

etxp wrote: »

Ive seen it done and have done it myself also, wasnt aware it was a breach of the rules though. I dont like it, i find i couldnt fully focus on the match or the weekly comp.

Ive also played a match(or not played rather) where me and the other just couldnt get a time slot to suit each other before the deadline so we just said the winner would be decided on who had the best score in the weekly comp. Not ideal but if it wasnt played then our names would have been drawn out of a hat, so we didnt see the problem in it.

Id say if it suits you and the club are ok with it then go ahead.

You could have a worse stableford score than him but beat him in matchplay format in that situation though

First Up

PARlance wrote:

It would be a problem if he played out of turn. His matchplay opponent could ask him to retake the shot.

Well obviously you would expect the players to hole out and to play in the right order but the same convention applies in all forms of golf. In what way are the rules of matchplay so "substantially different" as to make the two forms incompatible?

DuckSlice

ForeRight wrote: »

You could have a worse stableford score than him but beat him in matchplay format in that situation though

True, but i would prefer to get knocked out like that rather than losing on my name not being pulled out of a hat.

First Up

ForeRight wrote:

You could have a worse stableford score than him but beat him in matchplay format in that situation though

If you can't play head to head, you could always compare cards after and do it hole by hole by comparing stableford points per hole.

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

Well obviously you would expect the players to hole out and to play in the right order but the same convention applies in all forms of golf. In what way are the rules of matchplay so "substantially different" as to make the two forms incompatible?

The smart but correct answer: In the way that the R&A say they are. Their wording, not mine. Here's an article that goes into it in a bit of detail.

http://golf.about.com/od/beginners/a/matchplayrules.htm

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

Nor me. Nor do I see where the rules are "substantially different". If two players want to discharge their obligation to play a match they can agree what to do - and who would be any the wiser?

There are plenty of instances were you could break a rule and nobody would be any wiser.

Senna

Happened me a few years ago, guy I was playing against asked the committee if it was OK to enter comp and play our singles matchplay at the same time, committee said it was OK.
Not only did he beat me in the matchplay but he won the comp with 40points (+1 off 5).

He was at the prize giving that night and someone questioned it, GUI were contacted and yes it's against rules, disqualified from comp AND we had to replay our match.

AFAIK, even playing a small game within the fourball during a comp is against the rules.

PARlance

etxp wrote: »

Ive seen it done and have done it myself also, wasnt aware it was a breach of the rules though. I dont like it, i find i couldnt fully focus on the match or the weekly comp.

Ive also played a match(or not played rather) where me and the other just couldnt get a time slot to suit each other before the deadline so we just said the winner would be decided on who had the best score in the weekly comp. Not ideal but if it wasnt played then our names would have been drawn out of a hat, so we didnt see the problem in it.

Id say if it suits you and the club are ok with it then go ahead.

But why not just ask the club to allow you out to play the matchplay during the comp slots? I see match play bookings in the middle of singles comps in our place.
If you're going to be held up in the middle of 3 or 4 balls during this time, 2 could play their match and be joined by 1 or 2 others in the singles to make a 3 or 4 ball. I'm sure it's ok for a player in match play to mark a card for a guy in singles (If it's required by 3 balls).

Plenty of ways around it imo. No need to break the rules now that we know.

First Up

PARlance wrote:

The smart but correct answer: In the way that the R&A say they are. Their wording, not mine. Here's an article that goes into it in a bit of detail.

I read it and most of the scenarios they describe are at the extreme end of unlikely.

It only matters if by applying matchplay rules, the players gain some advantage over others playing in the same compeition and that can be easily avoided.

I know its against the rules but I have no doubt it will continue to be done all over the place and with absolutely no impact on anyone else.

DuckSlice

PARlance wrote: »

But why not just ask the club to allow you out to play the matchplay during the comp slots? I see match play bookings in the middle of singles comps in our place.
If you're going to be held up in the middle of 3 or 4 balls during this time, 2 could play their match and be joined by 1 or 2 others in the singles to make a 3 or 4 ball. I'm sure it's ok for a player in match play to mark a card for a guy in singles (If it's required by 3 balls).

Plenty of ways around it imo. No need to break the rules now that we know.

We could have done that, but as i said we couldnt get a slot that would suit each other. At the time early mornings only suited me and late afternoon only suited him. Was just bad timing for both of us.

ForeRight

First Up wrote: »

If you can't play head to head, you could always compare cards after and do it hole by hole by comparing stableford points per hole.

Spot on. I didn't even think of that.

Simple solution really

Dayor Knight

Senna wrote: »

Happened me a few years ago, guy I was playing against asked the committee if it was OK to enter comp and play our singles matchplay at the same time, committee said it was OK.
Not only did he beat me in the matchplay but he won the comp with 40points (+1 off 5).

He was at the prize giving that night and someone questioned it, GUI were contacted and yes it's against rules, disqualified from comp AND we had to replay our match.

AFAIK, even playing a small game within the fourball during a comp is against the rules.

As this was a rules query, this seems to answer it... against the rules. Not something I would have known but now that I do, I wouldn't be doing it (hasn't ever arisen for me to date). Just pick which you want to play and play it.

The Rape of Lucretia

ForeRight wrote: »

Spot on. I didn't even think of that.

Simple solution really

Disqualification for both players. The match was not played under the rules for matchplay competitions.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

If two players want to discharge their obligation to play a match they can agree what to do - and who would be any the wiser?

They cannot agree to do so. If they do, they are in breach of the rules and both disqualified.

Who would be any the wiser ? Well, if you want to play gold that way - tee up the ball in the rough with your toe, drop a ball by the out of bounds and play on (add a stroke of you feel you should pay some penalty), drop a ball in the trees when your partners arent looking and say you have found your ball.
Hey, if they dont spot you doing it, then who would be any wiser ?

fullstop

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Can 2 people in a match decide to agree on terms regardless?
I have done this in the past with a go ahead from committee, simply play off the comp tees and agree that all putts finished out.

Cannot see the reason for the hulabaloo on this

Do clubs allow a 2-ball to play a counting round in a stroke play competition?

fullstop

First Up wrote: »

Nor me. Nor do I see where the rules are "substantially different". If two players want to discharge their obligation to play a match they can agree what to do - and who would be any the wiser?

By the same token, if I decide to throw my ball out from behind a tree and nobody sees it, who would be any the wiser? You can't pick and choose what rules to follow

First Up

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Who would be any the wiser ? Well, if you want to play gold that way - tee up the ball in the rough with your toe, drop a ball by the out of bounds and play on (add a stroke of you feel you should pay some penalty), drop a ball in the trees when your partners arent looking and say you have found your ball. Hey, if they dont spot you doing it, then who would be any wiser ?

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

BigChap1759

First Up wrote: »

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

Sorry but you can't separate out which rules broken constitute cheating and then the other ones - which you are suggesting it's OK to break because it wouldn't be "cheating"???

It's against the rules, end of story - if you want to dispute it then the GUI/R&A would be the best contacts

mike12

There are many silly rules in golf but u have to play by them.
There are a couple of things here.
U cannot play your matchplay and be in the singles comp at the same time.
You can decide to any method u like to decide a match if u cannot get it played, toss a coin, play tiddlywinks pull a name out of a hat.
The rule is u cannot play 2 comps at the same time.

Hoof Hearted2

First Up wrote: »

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

It's a slippery slope, once you "allow" people to use their own judgement, things become cloudy very quickly and anarchy will reign.

First Up

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It's a slippery slope, once you "allow" people to use their own judgement, things become cloudy very quickly and anarchy will reign.

Its not about using their own judgement and there is absolutely no risk of anarchy. It is about two people agreeing the terms on which they will decide how their head to head is decided and with no impact on anyone else.

Of course, it would be best to play as a regular match play event but if they don't have that option, then there is nothing wrong with them using the result of another competition to decide.

Nobody has suggested combining or mix/match the rules of singles play and match play.

First Up

mike12 wrote: »

There are many silly rules in golf but u have to play by them.
There are a couple of things here.
U cannot play your matchplay and be in the singles comp at the same time.
You can decide to any method u like to decide a match if u cannot get it played, toss a coin, play tiddlywinks pull a name out of a hat.
The rule is u cannot play 2 comps at the same time.

If you want to decide it on the putting green it is your own business. So is using the result of a singles competition to decide your match. Nobody has suggested mixing the rules of singles and matchplay.

DuckSlice

i think when the rules say that you cannot play both at the same time, they mean you cant mix the rules of either type of play. So if you are playing a match, but also playing a strokeplay or stableford comp that you play to the rules of the strok/stableford comp. If you break a rule you dont lose the hole you get the penalty in strokes etc.

Thats my take on it anyway.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

If you want to decide it on the putting green it is your own business.

It isnt. The match has not been played at all in that case, and so the result has not been determined. If the two players decide that they will declare one the winner, but whatever other means they choose between themselves rather than a legal match of golf between them, then they are breaking the rules. Both are disqualified. Agreeing to waive rules is explicitly against the rules and penalised by disqualification of both parties.

I can see how you might make the distinction with that and the more intuitive 'cheating' like kick your ball in the rough to a good lie, but nevertheless, that fact remains, that breaking the rules is cheating, and if knowingly and deliberately, then without any forgiving at all.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

Ive also played a match(or not played rather) where me and the other just couldnt get a time slot to suit each other before the deadline so we just said the winner would be decided on who had the best score in the weekly comp. Not ideal but if it wasnt played then our names would have been drawn out of a hat, so we didnt see the problem in it.

I find it hard to believe any club worth their salt would be ok with players doing that.

PARlance wrote: »

Can't see how that would possible as there are different rules for both formats. Playing out of turn etc.

PARlance wrote: »

Rule 33-1

Certain specific rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted. The result of a match played in these circumstances is null and void and, in the stroke play competition, the competitors are disqualified.

PARlance wrote: »

The smart but correct answer: In the way that the R&A say they are. Their wording, not mine. Here's an article that goes into it in a bit of detail.

http://golf.about.com/od/beginners/a/matchplayrules.htm

In a way I have to disagree with you Parlance. The rules that are different are really rules regarding breeches of the rules. If you play the game as it should be played in the correct order and don't break any rules or allow gimmies, well then there should be no reason why you can't play a match within a singles comp. With the one obvious exception being that doing so in itself is an actual breech of the rules.

Personally I wouldn't do it because you go into a matchplay game with a totally different mindset to playing strokes/points. Well maybe you don't, but you should.

For example, an 8 on a par 4 might win you a hole in a matchplay. If you have a shot on the hole you would need a 6 to get a point. your opponent is in big trouble, and you are a shoe in to win the hole. do you play your 5th shot, a risky iron in over the water against the wind to try and get a 6? yes you probably do.... in a points game, probably layup in strokes and most definitely lay it up in a match where you have a few shots in hand

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

It is about two people agreeing the terms on which they will decide how their head to head is decided and with no impact on anyone else.

The two people have no input into the terms on which will decide how the match will be determined (if you want to play within the rules of golf - you can play snooker for it if you wish of course, but dont pretend you are playing golf).

First Up

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

The two people have no input into the terms on which will decide how the match will be determined (if you want to play within the rules of golf - you can play snooker for it if you wish of course, but dont pretend you are playing golf).

It is not pretending anything. I am talking about a situation in which THE MATCH CANNOT BE PLAYED. The options are for one to give a walkover, toss a coin or find some other means. To my mind, deciding on the golf course is the best choice, as long as nobody else is affected.

But if you prefer they both be disqualified, then best of luck.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

It is not pretending anything. I am talking about a situation in which THE MATCH CANNOT BE PLAYED. The options are for one to give a walkover, toss a coin or find some other means. To my mind, deciding on the golf course is the best choice, as long as nobody else is affected.

But if you prefer they both be disqualified, then best of luck.

With respect (;)), its not whether I prefer it or not that we are discussing. It is the rule. Matches not played by the deadline, unless an extension is given by the competition committee, is disqualification for both players. Walkover, coin toss, etc are not options.

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

I find it hard to believe any club worth their salt would be ok with players doing that.

I didn't see the problem with it when they were just going to toss a coin to see who won the match anyway.

I'm all for playing by the rules and now i know the rule i wont be doing it again. on the other hand if 2 guys want to decide a match by a strokeplay comp then let them off.

First Up

etxp wrote:

I'm all for playing by the rules and now i know the rule i wont be doing it again. on the other hand if 2 guys want to decide a match by a strokeplay comp then let them off.

It happens all the time. I know societies where many of the matchplay matches are held during regular stableford outings.

Dublin Spur

whilst I agree that its far from an ideal situation - neither player will gain any advantage either in their match or the club competition by playing in both at the same time.

therefore I don't see why (logically) it should cause any difficulty to allow it

mike12

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.
Unless your club doesn't allow walkovers if u can't play the match and they say toss a coin if u decide to do something a bit different I can't see the problem with it.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

In a way I have to disagree with you Parlance. The rules that are different are really rules regarding breeches of the rules. If you play the game as it should be played in the correct order and don't break any rules or allow gimmies, well then there should be no reason why you can't play a match within a singles comp. With the one obvious exception being that doing so in itself is an actual breech of the rules.

It's the R&A that say they are significantly different. That's a direct quote from Rule 33-1.

The rules encompass the various penalties for breech of rules. The penalties are different. You can't just assume there'll be no breeches, there would be no point in having any rules if it wasnt the case.

BigChap1759

mike12 wrote: »

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.
Unless your club doesn't allow walkovers if u can't play the match and they say toss a coin if u decide to do something a bit different I can't see the problem with it.

Pretty sure it specifies that the match must take place over the stipulated course to decide the result - so u couldn't decide to play it over 9 holes

The Rape of Lucretia

mike12 wrote: »

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.

Rules 1 and 2 :

RULE 1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules. Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3: Match play – Disqualification of both sides; Stroke play – Disqualification of competitors concerned.


RULE 2-1. General. A match consists of one side playing against another over a stipulated round unless otherwise decreed by the Committee. In match play the game is played by holes except as otherwise provided in the Rules, a hole is won by the side that holes its ball in the fewer strokes. In a handicap match, the lower net score wins the hole.

The “stipulated round’’ consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence, unless otherwise authorised by the Committee. The number of holes in a stipulated round is 18 unless a smaller number is authorised by the Committee.




And further in the Decisions :

6-1/1 Wrong Form of Play Used in Match-Play Event
Q.In a foursome match-play competition, four players begin their match on a four-ball match-play basis. The error is discovered after play of the 9th hole. What is the ruling?

A.It would be improper to decide any match by a form of play other than the prescribed form.

If the wrong form of play is used as a result of a Committee error, the match should be replayed. If the wrong form of play is used unintentionally by players, the match should be replayed; if, however, this would delay the competition, both sides should be disqualified unless one side concedes the match to the other - see Rules 2-4 and 6-1. If the wrong form of play is used intentionally by players, they should be disqualified - Rule 1-3.

i.e. you must play golf to decide the outcome, otherwise, both players are disqualified.

DuckSlice

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

i.e. you must play golf to decide the outcome, otherwise, both players are disqualified.

The match can also be conceded.