Calling for a NO to TUI ballot

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

But they have promised things.....and this Govt have always kept their promises......

this time they're promising a review, but better than the last review it's going to be a "robust review".

History Queen

At our union meeting members were shocked and disappointed at the recommendation for a Yes vote.... to echo the op i too call for a no vote on this nonsensical "agreement"

mirrorwall14

Attended my branch meeting tonight. It was an eye opener in many ways. To lay out some of the feedback from the top brass

1. Legal advice taken by the TUI is that there is no way that a legal challenge to FEMPI will succeed. They are adamant that the ASTI will fail and that this is simply not an option that is available.
2. The government will ABSOLUTELY apply all of the available tools in their arsenal to force us to accept this agreement by hook or by crook. There is no good end game here. If we chose to go out, then we are out and the following AT LEAST will apply
-S and S payment will not be made (this affects you for every year for the rest of your career)
-The Ward Report will be immediately revoked and no one will get their CIDs in September either for the first time, or for the increase they may be due. It will revert to the 5th contract being a CID
- New recruits will be placed on the original new salary scales not on the revised scales from HRA
-Increments will be immediately suspended for a 2 year period and it will be like they never happen from your career perspective.
3. NQT's and the separate salary scales are being addressed separately to this agreement (provided we are in an agreement) with SIPTU and ICTU and a committee will be in place within 6 months to start this review. TUI will also be campaigning for allowances to be reinstated. For the first time they are reasonably confident that this review is going to be reality rather than a just a "wish" because the door has been opened with the firefighters getting allowances back by being built into their scale.


I am now torn.

They were fairly blunt. The end game when you go out on strike is that you eventually have to talk. They said the reality of talks is never going to get more than this now that an "orderly" unwinding of FEMPI is built into the government. The government simply cannot back down because the fiscal space will not allow them to, there has to be an orderly unwinding so they can't afford to let us have our own moment. They didn't try to sell us any "carrots", it was pretty much-if we don't accept this the alternative is horrific and will cost us way more than what this has on the table

deiseindublin

Sorry but I'm still a big RESOUNDING NO.

I call it horse****, there is nothing in the agreement except talk about talks. They will have to talk if (hopefully when) we vote No, they won't want the schools closed.

deiseindublin

Also, if we don't get paid for S&S, surely we can stop doing it? Does that not expire end of June also?

I think no CP hours and no S&S is worth going for a NO vote.

mirrorwall14

If we stop S&S the schools remain closed indefinitely (and we do not get paid) at all.

They said it essentially comes down to how long can we afford to stay out on strike because it would be a bloody long time before the government would back down even an inch

History Queen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Sorry but I'm still a big RESOUNDING NO.

I call it horse****, there is nothing in the agreement except talk about talks. They will have to talk if (hopefully when) we vote No, they won't want the schools closed.

I agree fully with you. How long will it take us to learn that agreeement cannot always be one sided with the other side changing the rules all the time?

I'm here reading an anti bullying policy for our school...i should forward same to the department for them to reflect on

mirrorwall14

I do agree with you guys. I'm just not sure that realistically everyone is going to stand up to this bullying

deiseindublin

As HQ said, where do we draw the line though, are we always going to just nod in agreement for an easy life in the hope they'll come good? It's time to stand up and be counted and if that means the schools are closed for a while, so be it.

I can't see the DES letting the schools close for any length. At the moment all the negative press that circulates is towards the teachers (overpaid with too many hols etc) but if the school were closed and there was no agreement the negative press would be against government and teachers.

I can't see an unstable to start with government letting it happen.

mirrorwall14

deiseindublin wrote: »

As HQ said, where do we draw the line though, are we always going to just nod in agreement for an easy life in the hope they'll come good? It's time to stand up and be counted and if that means the schools are closed for a while, so be it.

I can't see the DES letting the schools close for any length. At the moment all the negative press that circulates is towards the teachers (overpaid with too many hols etc) but if the school were closed and there was no agreement the negative press would be against government and teachers.

I can't see an unstable to start with government letting it happen.

I agree with you except for the second paragraph. I cannot see decades of poor press coverage overturned because we closed the schools. Parents and the media would absolutely blame us not the Department. We lost the media battle long ago

LaLa2004

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

the government simply cannot back down because the fiscal space will not allow them to, there has to be an orderly unwinding so they can't afford to let us have our own moment. They didn't try to sell us any "carrots", it was pretty much-if we don't accept this the alternative is horrific and will cost us way more than what this has on the table

They found the 'fiscal space' to get rid of water charges when people shouted loud enough.

deiseindublin

Guards have stopped doing CP hours and no downside so far for them.

We were promised X, Y and Z when HR expires at end of June. Our finances have improved. We should now we given what we have worked for and agreed to. We've upheld our side, end of. I don't get why they think that it's ok to just shelf the promises and have a few robust reviews instead.

Btw - this is the exact reason why I suggested in school that we need to have a TUI meeting BEFORE the propaganda spills out from head office. They've basically negotiated a crap deal and have to sell it to us now so I'd expect the literature to be OTT scaremongering, with none of the historical facts behind Government agreements.

deiseindublin

Also, probably a stupid question but can there not be some kind of legal challenge to them changing the goal posts for back pay etc? Surely at some point if one side does all they're supposed to do, and the other party doesn't, it has to be challenged?

I have to admit that I really don't care about the back money side of S&S, for me I just don't want to do CP hours, end of. I was so happy all year thinking "at least they're going to be gone". I felt like the dog ate my homework when I ready the new agreement the other night. It's awful that they could have made so little headway in the talks.

I'm actually wondering were there any talks at all? I mean, it looks like a document that was posted to them without negotiation. Exactly what gains were there?

r93kaey5p2izun

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this stuff about the government holding out with no concessions in the face of strike or school closures, or even them allowing it to get that far. They are not in a strong position as regards their own stability. Look at the water charges. They are simply seeing our unions as a weak target that will roll over with a few threats. And we're walking right into their hands.

And as for the fiscal space and not giving any carrots because they can't afford it - I think that's a load of cobblers. Casualisation is one of the core issues here. It will not cost the government more to give CIDs quicker or to do something meaningful to stop the widespread abuse of part time contracts going on in many schools. This could be easily solved with minimal financial outlay. But they fail to commit to anything more than a review and show that they're really just looking for power over a weak teaching profession rather than any real financiaI concerns.

My resolve to reject this worthless document is strengthened by this nonsense scaremongering.

deiseindublin

I hope to god that everybody has the same reaction Arlessienne. It's only ever taken a bit of scaremongering for teacher unions to fold.

TheDriver

I would like to go back to the people behind the agreement - our elected representatives. We should all be writing to our TDs with our concerns of constant agreements being broken and mistrust. And as our elected representative, we expect fair play. Hell-there's circulars that are now being thrown away because the Govt isn't liking things. Can we now just change which circulars we go by? Can we get the inspectors to go back to DESk and get them to abide by all their circulars? I would believe all the promises except I have believed them last time and as the saying goes- fool me once....fool me twice

No TD wants to answer a question that why aren't we getting the pay restoration we were PROMISED in HRA?????? Why are we being threatened??? No TD wants to jeopardise their vote which is NOT long away again....

man_no_plan

A long strike will break the unions.

With strategy there can be effective protracted strikes. They will cost unions money and cost members money.

I was taken aback at the reports of the next phase of Luas strikes affecting the State Exams. Today SIPTU altered the timing og thosr strikrs so as not to impact on the students.

Tell me who is winning there?

If there is to be action it needs to be carefully planned and executed and there needd to be discipline among members.

The JC campaign was a success from a TUI perspective yet, even during it people were moaning and groaning about it and not wanting to participate in the lunchtime protests.

The other concerns, re new entrants etc., are also going to cause an implosion very soon in my view. I know that plenty of my colleagues who were on strike resent the fact that non members, not all of whom are on the old payscale, were paid while we were on strike.

A union needs unity, and we haven't got it in either union. This needs to be sorted rapidly.

gaiscioch

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The government simply cannot back down because the fiscal space will not allow them to

I'm still waiting for evidence that my sitting reading a book/colouring pictures/twiddling my thumbs/falling asleep in egregiously boring meetings during Croke Park hours contributes financially to anything in this state. The emperor has no clothes!

gaiscioch

deiseindublin wrote: »

I have to admit that I really don't care about the back money side of S&S, for me I just don't want to do CP hours, end of.

100% agree, and I write this as somebody whose childcare fees are over €2000 a month (that's supposedly the "discounted" rate) so money is obviously tight for the next few years. Time is far more valuable, however: with routine child sickness I'm already stretching the kindness of family members and my fellow staff. In this context, that I'm forced to stay on school premises giving *zero* - and I do mean zero - added value to the state during these sham "reform" hours has nothing but my abject, wholehearted contempt.

picturehangup

It was great to send ballots out to the schools, ASTI getting this bit right, as everyone in my school has now handed ballot back to school steward. A large 'YES' from our staff. Everyone is fed up to the teeth doing these unnecessary hours.
If we get this wrong now, our conditions are down the drain for good, and will never be restored.
i forecast 85%Yes; 15% No, and 90% turnout. Hope I am not too optimistic.

acequion

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by the turncoat behaviour of TUI leadership.They are always the first to cave, therefore a weak link and the employer knows that only too well. Frighten the bejaysus out of the TUI crowd,a good few clips around the ear, getting them all scurrying to vote the right way and then isolate that really brazen crowd in the ASTI. Put manners on them too after a bit and like a mad dog they'll eventually come growling home.Problem sorted til the next agreement from 2018 to 2000 and forever.

It's same ole,same ole. Look you either stand up for yourself or you don't! It really is that simple. It really worries me when I see regular posters, clearly regular no voters to all these phony agreements feeling swayed once the pressure is turned up. Of course the Gov / Des have options now that the economy is in recovery and doing quite well.The threats are breathtaking and smack of a police state and this coming from a weak Government! I would be very suspicious of your union leadership.Are they representing their members or are they Governments facilitators? We got the same medicine last time out from our union leaders but we have a new man at the helm now so I am hopeful for better leadership.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to the members. Teachers have always caved. The Gov knows that and it now sees us as weak and easy prey. That is precisely where the constant capitulation has got us.

Will it be different this time? At the end of the day it's up to us!

deiseindublin

acequion wrote: »

Will it be different this time? At the end of the day it's up to us!

That's what frightens me when I look around the staff room).:o

mirrorwall14

Ballots for TUI being posted out the 16th. Due back by the 30th.



I also received an unsolicited email as follows:

TUI Ballot: Vote NO

Time for TUI to Take a Stand on Croke Park and Flex Hours

NO to Lansdowne Road

Open Meeting

Teachers Club, Parnell Sq, Dublin

TUESDAY May 17, 7.30pm

Contact 087 _____ or 086 ____ for More Information

This meeting is being organised by activists across the TUI.

If anyone wants the number to ring them I am happy to do it.

deiseindublin

That's great so.

When ASTI vote to get rid of CP hours we'll still have 10 days or so to go. Maybe the media attention given to the ASTI upstarts will spur some of ours into militancy.

deiseindublin

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ballots for TUI being posted out the 16th. Due back by the 30th.



I also received an unsolicited email as follows:

TUI Ballot: Vote NO

Time for TUI to Take a Stand on Croke Park and Flex Hours

NO to Lansdowne Road

Open Meeting

Teachers Club, Parnell Sq, Dublin

TUESDAY May 17, 7.30pm

Contact 087 _____ or 086 ____ for More Information

This meeting is being organised by activists across the TUI.

If anyone wants the number to ring them I am happy to do it.

Be great if you could PM me the details, might try to get a gang in work going.

mirrorwall14

Pm sent. I honestly know nothing about this, I just got sent an email from someone I don't even know

political analyst

Is it not the case that secondary teachers - those who teach Junior and Leaving Cert and Further Education subjects - constitute the majority of TUI members? If it is the case, then why is the TUI leadership recommending in favour of the Landsdowne Road deal? I'm aware of the Department's threat of redundancy but, as I've said in a thread that I've just started in this forum, the integrity of the teaching profession is bigger than any particular teacher.

deiseindublin

Just see there now that our official TUI branch meeting is on tomorrow nt in a Dublin hotel, at same time as NO campaign meeting is on.

Which would be more worthwhile going to? I'm voting NO myself no matter what threats are spouted but don't know if it'd be more useful to go to the unofficial NO meeting or the TUI scare-mongering, official party line Yes meeting.

Decisions, Decisions...........

CraftySue

Are TUI, now calling for a NO vote?

http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20May10%20special.pdf

km79

CraftySue wrote: »

Are TUI, now calling for a NO vote?

http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20May10%20special.pdf

They were
In 2010
When that nuacht was published. It says it in the file name as well as on the front page of the nuacht ........